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  1. #706

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    The "Run The Jewels" variant covers for Black Panther #2. I personally prefer the grey cover over the red one.




  2. #707

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    Was rereading Doomwar earlier this week and noticed this exchange between T'Challa and Shuri (featuring Rhodey).



    Few thoughts:

    -Sounding kinda like a broken record, but Doomwar really had legit gems here and there. It simply couldn't stick the landing. That landing is so important.

    -Earlier in this thread, I mentioned that, imho, T'Challa represented what Wakanda could be, while Shuri represented what Wakanda currently is. I feel this exchange between the two is a small representation of that.

    T'Challa comes up with a plan to infiltrate Latveria, get proof that Doom stole the vibranium, and stop Doom in his tracks, if possible. All that done in a manner that would not directly tie back to Wakanda, should the plan go haywire. On paper, the plan is sound and is something many nations would consider and even implement themselves.

    Yet, the new ways of thinking and the old ways of thinking end up clashing somewhat, as Shuri looks down on the maneuver altogether. Not because the plan is a bad one, but because it goes against Wakandan "values" (for a lack of a better term), especially concerning its longtime isolationist policy. The fact that the plan--if it goes haywire--could lead to an open conflict between Latveria and Wakanda, and Wakanda would be deem the aggressor, would've made it almost a non-starter to Shuri and others of like-mind. T'Challa knew this was a possibility and thus covertly went ahead with his plan.

    That back-and-forth involving the new ways forging on, while being simultaneously reigned in by the old ways, is a dynamic I hope a subsequent writer touches on in BP books.

  3. #708

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    A before and after splice of my "Shuri in the Djalia" pics.


  4. #709
    Invincible Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Anddddd

    Then hickman had shuri declare war on atlantis

    *shrug*
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  5. #710

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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Anddddd

    Then hickman had shuri declare war on atlantis

    *shrug*
    Wakanda didn't start it though, Atlantis did. And unlike Doom, who used the Desturi as public cover, Namor and Atlantian forces attacked directly and in plain sight.

    Shuri declaring war in that case does go in line with how Wakanda should react and doesn't contradict what she said in the Mayberry run.

  6. #711
    Invincible Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Realdealholy View Post
    Wakanda didn't start it though, Atlantis did. And unlike Doom, who used the Desturi as public cover, Namor and Atlantian forces attacked directly and in plain sight.

    Shuri declaring war in that case does go in line with how Wakanda should react and doesn't contradict what she said in the Mayberry run.


    Doom was a monarch of another country who forcibly entered the country, killed a Royal, incited a rebellion, stole their ****, and left.

    Namor was a monarch of another country, forcibly entered the country, destroyed some ****, and then got defeated actually lol. (thinking of it... how did Namor get away after the phoenix force left him? I don't remember...)

    Doom's seems MUCH worse IMO. Especially since Namor did offer peace. I just can't see how Wakanda can be so blood lusted against the one (even T'challa threatened and almost succeeded in killing him) and then just shrug the other one away.


    I guess the key difference is "look like the aggressors."

    hmm


    I still can't believe an Atlantis/Wakanda war got relegated to a background 3rd story lol. MARVELLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  7. #712
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Doom was a monarch of another country who forcibly entered the country, killed a Royal, incited a rebellion, stole their ****, and left.

    Namor was a monarch of another country, forcibly entered the country, destroyed some ****, and then got defeated actually lol. (thinking of it... how did Namor get away after the phoenix force left him? I don't remember...)

    Doom's seems MUCH worse IMO. Especially since Namor did offer peace. I just can't see how Wakanda can be so blood lusted against the one (even T'challa threatened and almost succeeded in killing him) and then just shrug the other one away.


    I guess the key difference is "look like the aggressors."

    hmm


    I still can't believe an Atlantis/Wakanda war got relegated to a background 3rd story lol. MARVELLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Dooms actions arguably were wors, but Namor SEEMED worse. The biggest difference to me was there was an actual need to stop Doom as he was in the process of trying to take over the world, while technically nothing needed to be done with Namor because a peace treaty was on the table. But NEED wasn't the actual defining factor at work here. That's where politics and public perception factor into things.

    Dooms actions occured under the cover of a coup which the Wakandans quickly put down. So Dooms fingerprints were minimal and Wakanda wouldn't lose face by not overtly retaliating since few even knew he was there.

    Namors actions were more public, to the point where Wakanda would not only look justified by almost weak by not retaliating. Given the factors that Namor had Phoenix issues and a peace treaty was being offered, I think Shuri would have been more justified in taking a harsher stance against Doom over Namor especially since there was an immediate need to do it. BUT the political consequences are a much bigger issue with the former over the later.
    Last edited by XPac; 03-10-2017 at 06:15 AM.

  8. #713

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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Doom was a monarch of another country who forcibly entered the country, killed a Royal, incited a rebellion, stole their ****, and left.

    Namor was a monarch of another country, forcibly entered the country, destroyed some ****, and then got defeated actually lol. (thinking of it... how did Namor get away after the phoenix force left him? I don't remember...)

    Doom's seems MUCH worse IMO. Especially since Namor did offer peace. I just can't see how Wakanda can be so blood lusted against the one (even T'challa threatened and almost succeeded in killing him) and then just shrug the other one away.


    I guess the key difference is "look like the aggressors."

    hmm


    I still can't believe an Atlantis/Wakanda war got relegated to a background 3rd story lol. MARVELLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    There are various reasons for the different responses, but the three biggest reasons were scale of attack, political consequences, and public perception.

    Doom clandestinely compromised Wakanda's national security, bankrolled and armed a Wakandan fringe group, and used said fringe group to start a coup. Said fringe group comes into power and lets him into Wakanda. As far as the general public--both in Wakanda and the world--was concerned, this was just a successful coup. Very few people outside of those in the know were aware of Doom's involvement. More importantly, neither T'Challa or Shuri had concrete proof of Doom's crimes that they could present to the public (as the panel I posted mentioned, they didn't even have presentable proof that Doom stole the vibranium). When T'Challa and Shuri went to Utopia to meet with the X-Men, they only had their word and reputation on their side, as the Desturi were publishing false reports about alleged human rights violation by the royal family. The X-Men showed a lot of initial skepticism as a result.

    Also, Doom brought only himself to Wakanda, rather than bringing Latverian forces with him. Doom killing S'Yan means that he was worthy of an assassination attempt in return, hence why I believe Doom should've either been killed or almost beaten to death. Wakanda attacking Latveria altogether means that Wakanda would have to justify its attack at some point, and it would be hard for them to do so publicly when they have little proof outside of eyewitness testimony (which won't be enough for such accusations) of Doom's actual involvement in the conflict.

    Namor's attack, however, was so blatant, so destructive, so deadly, and so public that Wakanda almost had no choice but to react the way it did. Namor didn't just bring himself, he brought lots of Atlantian forces with him. As a result, Wakanda was practically unified in wanting retaliation, and this time they had all the proof needed to justify their actions both domestically and internationally. In addition, as Xpac alluded to, Wakanda not retaliating this time would show weakness at a global scale.

    Concerning Namor's peace proposal, there were practical reasons for him offering such a thing, but it was also a bit of a trojan horse. Namor clearly wasn't a fan of Shuri and he himself said there were elements within Wakanda that wanted Shuri out of power. Shuri deciding to forgo war--outside of an incredible to do so--could've caused large-scale internal strife within Wakanda and possibly marked the beginning of the end of her reign altogether.

    Namor was essentially trying to get his cake and eat it too, and tried using T'Challa to make it happen. It backfired on Namor completely.
    Last edited by Realdealholy; 03-10-2017 at 07:03 AM.

  9. #714
    Invincible Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Hmmmm I can see it but also can't lol. Reasoning makes sense in stupid comic book ways but... grrrrr lol.

    It is so funny that T'challa goes "fellow heroes, Doom has done XYZ" and heroes are like, "hmm really? That doesn't seem like something Doom would do at all. Get it under control T'challa!"

    Hidden gems in an baffling event
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  10. #715
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Hmmmm I can see it but also can't lol. Reasoning makes sense in stupid comic book ways but... grrrrr lol.

    It is so funny that T'challa goes "fellow heroes, Doom has done XYZ" and heroes are like, "hmm really? That doesn't seem like something Doom would do at all. Get it under control T'challa!"

    Hidden gems in an baffling event
    That was more political Cyclops than super hero cyclops. A theme BP books seem to explore pretty thoroughly is the difference between a super hero and a king. We see that with both Shuri and Cyclops. They think like kings and consider the political ramifications of potentially engaging in a war. To them it's not just a matter of whether he is guilty but whether or not he looks guilty enough to act upon.

    Part of the reason why Fury in Secret War back in the day just said "screw it" with the red tape and went black ops on Latveria.

  11. #716
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    That was more political Cyclops than super hero cyclops. A theme BP books seem to explore pretty thoroughly is the difference between a super hero and a king. We see that with both Shuri and Cyclops. They think like kings and consider the political ramifications of potentially engaging in a war. To them it's not just a matter of whether he is guilty but whether or not he looks guilty enough to act upon.

    Part of the reason why Fury in Secret War back in the day just said "screw it" with the red tape and went black ops on Latveria.
    i was mostly talking about the scene in T'challa bat cave where Tony Stark and company were talking to him.
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  12. #717

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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Hmmmm I can see it but also can't lol. Reasoning makes sense in stupid comic book ways but... grrrrr lol.

    It is so funny that T'challa goes "fellow heroes, Doom has done XYZ" and heroes are like, "hmm really? That doesn't seem like something Doom would do at all. Get it under control T'challa!"

    Hidden gems in an baffling event
    Convincing heroes isn't the problem. It's convincing governments.

    Eyewitness testimony often isn't enough to sway world leaders one way or another, especially when said accusations involves another head of state. One needs more than that. And for most of Doomwar, neither T'Challa or Shuri had concrete proof of what Doom did. All Doom had to do was deny the accusations and he'd receive little to no pushback from the international community.

    Namor's stuff was so public and blatant that a retaliation was almost inevitable. Everyone both in Wakanda and the world knew who did it. Any Wakandan leader who proposed the opposite was basically risking his/her career and his/her reputation. We saw the latter happen to T'Challa when that one Wakandan general insulted him publicly.
    Last edited by Realdealholy; 03-10-2017 at 07:36 AM.

  13. #718
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    i was mostly talking about the scene in T'challa bat cave where Tony Stark and company were talking to him.
    In all fairness that was them really saying they're busy dealing with the vibranium problem on their end while they needed to stop it at the source.

    It's typical super hero stuff... unless it's a company wide event (though this could have been I suppose) you don't want EVERYONE showing up.

  14. #719
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    Quote Originally Posted by Realdealholy View Post
    Convincing heroes isn't the problem. It's convincing governments.

    Eyewitness testimony often isn't enough to sway world leaders one way or another, especially when said accusations involves another head of state. One needs more than that. And for most of Doomwar, neither T'Challa or Shuri had concrete proof of what Doom did. All Doom had to do was deny the accusations and he'd receive little to no pushback from the international community.

    Namor's stuff was so public and blatant that a retaliation was almost inevitable. Everyone both in Wakanda and the world knew who did it. Any Wakandan leader who proposed the opposite was basically risking his/her career and his/her reputation. We saw the latter happen to T'Challa when that one Wakandan general insulted him publicly.
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  15. #720

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beware Of Geek View Post
    I see Shuri as having the same sort of problem as Winter Soldier, in a way.

    She should be there. Fans WANT her to be there. But to use her in any major fashion takes he spotlight off of T'Challa in a way that someone like Zuri or Ramonda wouldn't.
    Was rereading the thread and saw the bold. I've noticed that various users online (in CBR and elsewhere) have mentioned this point or a variation of it. This reasoning has been used as a rationale for Shuri either having only a cameo in the film, or even not be in the first film at all (not saying Beware of Geek is saying either, for the record).

    Thus I have to ask (to everyone): How does Shuri take away from T'Challa, especially within the context of the MCU in which Shuri is neither Queen, BP, or even in Djalia mode?

    -T'Challa is the King of Wakanda, the highest authority of the land.
    -T'Challa is the Black Panther.
    -T'Challa is a better overall fighter than Shuri.
    -T'Challa is a scientist.
    -T'Challa is a genius, top 10 smartest MU character.
    -T'Challa more experienced in dealing with the political landscape.

    Then you add on the MCU factor:

    -T'Challa is clearly the lead, and thus will command the majority of screen time.
    -Shuri, should she appear in the BP solo, won't be neither the main supporting character or female lead.
    -Shuri, should she appear, won't be queen or BP (and very likely won't be either anytime soon), or even in Djalia mode.

    Thus, whether the MCU uses the younger or older version of Shuri, I honestly don't see how she takes away from T'Challa, even if she was to be used in a major way. All the film would have to do is focus primarily on T'Challa and ensure that he drives the story, gets the majority of the feats and gets the big feats.

    Concerning Bucky, we do see Bucky in Cap 1 as Bucky Barnes. He had 8 minutes of screen time in that film. Obviously, there's practically no chance of Shuri getting that much screen time, considering the cast is basically full. Hell, there's no guarantee she'll even be in the film at this point. But fundamentally, I don't see how if Shuri was around, her getting 8 minutes or less would take away from T'Challa in any way, for the reasons I've mentioned.

    Lastly, I do understand someone stating the bold in light of the comics specifically, as Shuri was indeed a BP and queen for a while. But not for the MCU, as they clearly don't have to go lockstep with the comics.
    Last edited by Realdealholy; 03-11-2017 at 09:35 AM.

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