Rebirth Endgame for Flashfamily

[Waterfall]

How do you think the timeline and status quo for Flash will be like once Rebirth is over? Unlike GL and Batman, it's the most butchered franchise of New 52 and editorial & WB has HUGE influence on the title due to DCEU and CWverse. How much of the pre-flashpoint can be salvaged?

Here's my two cents:

+ Jay will be reintroduced in a massive crossover, he will be dislocated from time and will have SF to give him immortality. Joan will be deaged the way Iris West was deaged in Final Crisis. His connections to Barry will be established fully, down to Barry naming himself after him after reading his comics. JSA will be an undercover metahuman group during WW2 instead of a simple predecessor of JLA.

+ Barry will start dating Iris again and at the end of Rebirth (2 years) he may even propose to her. This will be when Bart & Tornado Twins are reintroduced. COEI will exist and Barry's death will be reintegrated to continuity again.(it's dumb to erase the greatest comic book death anyway)

+ Wally's 13-14 when he first becomes KF. I hope they won't change it to 16 like Dick or I'll lose my s***. NTT didn't happen and he never quit superheroics or he faced his illness and that's it. He took part in new version of Judas Contract and knows Cyborg. When Barry dies at COEI, he tooks over but this time his Flash stint will be max 2 years. That's also when he met heroes like Kyle Rayner.

+ Wally and Linda won't get together right away and the kids are completely gone.

+ Rogues are changed completely back to pre-flashpoint (which is apparently happening at Rogues Reloaded). James Jesse exists and is currently part of FBI. Evan McCulloch may be reintroduced by killing Sam Scudder. Pied Piper breaks up from Singh and dons suit again, back to pre-flashpoint status quo. He was reformed during Wally's Flash tenure and their friendship is intact. Magenta still exists.

+ Thawne and Zolomon are lost in SF/timestream, the current Thawne is just a muppet created by Kadabra or Mr.Oz (which would explain why he was a mix of both). They will have a tag team at the end of Rebirth. OR Zolomon still exists and still a good guy (maybe never discharged from FBI) but his connection to time stream causes Psycho Pirate/Rebirth!Barry effect in his mind. Thawne may reach out to him to have a reverse version of Rebirth scene between Barry & Wally. This is pretty much wild card.

+ This is where things start to get murky: Bart Allen's status in Flashfamily while Wally Jr. also exists. This sorta depends on older Wally getting a book or not. If that happens, Bart has a chance over there. If it doesn't, younger Wally may be put on a bus?

+ I don't think Jesse Quick will be too young when she's introduced, considering Bart, Avery and Wally Jr. .She'll probably take more part in JSA book than Titans or Flash after being introduced.

+ Speed Force Tribes and Colonies: That's one of the biggest problems we have here. I believe we will get something earth shattering as Wonder Woman when it comes to this. New 52 Speed Force may turn out to be a lie created by Black Hole, so the whole deal with Lies will be applied to Dr.Selkirk adventures.

[Frontier]

I think for now, given the vision in the double-Wally issue, Jay and the Quicks coming back is definitely going to be happening soon, and given what Williamson has said in the past, I see Bart and Max showing up eventually as well .

[PennyDreadful]

Here is my solution: Keep NuWally. He is growing on me.

Bring back Bart and keep him in the future with his cousin XS.

I would prefer James Jesse with the FBI. I don't want to see him and Piper as villains ever again.

I prefer the Rogues as antiheroes rather than outright villains. Rogues' Rebellion is an example of what I'm talking about. They're criminals but they refuse to kill anyone or destroy their home city. Definitely not murderers.

[Waterfall]

NuWally is incredibly confusing, that's the problem. He's not as distinct like Bart, he's simply following older Wally's shoes. I still don't see how it's going to work out for older Wally while keep pushing Wally Jr. He's completely pushed away from the main book because of him.

[Lee]

How do you think the timeline and status quo for Flash will be like once Rebirth is over? Unlike GL and Batman, it's the most butchered franchise of New 52 and editorial & WB has HUGE influence on the title due to DCEU and CWverse.

It's been noted that there was a lot of editorial control, but I doubt WB and the TV show had anything to do with it. The only tie-in with the TV show was the new Wally West's skin colour.

I think calling it the most butchered franchise of the New 52 is a gross exaggeration. Teen Titans? Superboy? Hawkman? Lobo? Post-Robinson Earth 2?

Jay will be reintroduced in a massive crossover, he will be dislocated from time and will have SF to give him immortality. Joan will be deaged the way Iris West was deaged in Final Crisis.

This seems unnecessary. If the entire Justice Society went missing in the 1950s and the entire Justice Society is going to return, then wouldn't it make more sense if they were all put into some kind of magical stasis? Rather than trying to explain away each character's age one by one, it'd be better to have a single explanation that covers all of them. Whatever happened to the JSA, Joan Garrick could have been there as well. Much better than making Jay and Joan 100+ year old immortals.

Wally and Linda won't get together right away and the kids are completely gone.

The kids are a lot of baggage. Still, they could show up in a time travel story to show that they haven't been erased from existence, they just haven't been born yet. Definitely shouldn't be a fixture of the series though.

Evan McCulloch may be reintroduced by killing Sam Scudder.

I don't think there's anything to be gained from that other than awkward Scottish dialect written by Americans.

Magenta still exists.

Magenta was in Iron Heights in Flash #50.

Thawne and Zolomon are lost in SF/timestream, the current Thawne is just a muppet created by Kadabra or Mr.Oz (which would explain why he was a mix of both). They will have a tag team at the end of Rebirth. OR Zolomon still exists and still a good guy (maybe never discharged from FBI) but his connection to time stream causes Psycho Pirate/Rebirth!Barry effect in his mind. Thawne may reach out to him to have a reverse version of Rebirth scene between Barry & Wally. This is pretty much wild card.

I'd be fine with the New 52 Thawne being dismissed as coming from an alternate future timeline, since his origin and motivation were poor. The one zooming about in Flash Rebirth #1 could be from the "real" timeline.

It would probably be best to re-introduce Hunter Zolomon with a clean slate, later down the line. At the moment I think it's fine for him to be a low priority. Better to re-establish who the "Flash Family" are and who Professor Zoom is, before worrying about the "Zoom Family".

This is where things start to get murky: Bart Allen's status in Flashfamily while Wally Jr. also exists. This sorta depends on older Wally getting a book or not. If that happens, Bart has a chance over there. If it doesn't, younger Wally may be put on a bus?

They won't be getting rid of New Wally anytime soon. He was a big part of the initial Rebirth promotion, was one of only two heroes "locked in" for Teen Titans Rebirth from day one (the other being Robin) and has been a big part of the current Flash series, where Williamson has been doing a great job with him.

It does make finding a home for Impulse trickier though, unless they keep him in the 30th century with XS and the Legion of Super-Heroes, or if they try a new Young Justice series that is somehow distinct from both Titans and Teen Titans.

Speed Force Tribes and Colonies: That's one of the biggest problems we have here. I believe we will get something earth shattering as Wonder Woman when it comes to this. New 52 Speed Force may turn out to be a lie created by Black Hole, so the whole deal with Lies will be applied to Dr.Selkirk adventures.

That seems like overkill. They could just blame it all on Turbine, then bring him back to "clean up" the Speed Force.

[Lhynn]

NuWally is incredibly confusing, that's the problem. He's not as distinct like Bart, he's simply following older Wally's shoes. I still don't see how it's going to work out for older Wally while keep pushing Wally Jr. He's completely pushed away from the main book because of him.

Hed be out of the main book anyway, wally isnt a sidekick anymore. What i do think should happen is that NuWally should get a name change, maybe a nickname or a middle name or hes forced to change his name due to legal reasons or something.

[PennyDreadful]

I could never understand why the most endearing aspects of the Flash universe--family, optimism, pure heroism--were basically thrown away in the new 52. I agree with Moon--the Flashverse was butchered badly.

Here is what I would prefer--Weather Wizard as the only metahuman Rogue. Make Heat Wave a guy with a fire gun again. Whoever thought it was a good idea to give all the Rogues powers missed the point of the Rogues. Heck, whoever was behind all these bizarre changes in the new 52 missed the point of the Flash universe's appeal. Central City is not Gotham. The Flash is not a dark, angsty character. (I hated that they kept Barry's dead mom, to be honest.)

[Waterfall]

It's been noted that there was a lot of editorial control, but I doubt WB and the TV show had anything to do with it. The only tie-in with the TV show was the new Wally West's skin colour.

Thawne and Wally's shoehorned introduction, sudden changes to Iris and immediately getting rid of Patty, using SF to be more like the particule accelarator, Barry's dumbed down IQ, his and Zoom's stupid outfits and I can go on. Only lord knows what they are going to bring into book when movie comes out.

I think calling it the most butchered franchise of the New 52 is a gross exaggeration. Teen Titans? Superboy? Hawkman? Lobo? Post-Robinson Earth 2?

Pretty art and safe storytelling may have not shown you but it WAS butchered. Speed Force turned into mess, and the main reason they didn't introduce Wally into book was to combine his character with Barry. Central started to hate Flash (which is still an ongoing plot point), West family tree turned into incomprehensible mess. Pied Piper was demoted into being "look we have a gay couple in our book". Entire Flashfamily was DESTROYED, there was no Flashfamily at all and was made sure there wouldn't be one. I'm not eveb touching Rogues side of things. Let's look past the pretty art for one second.

This seems unnecessary. If the entire Justice Society went missing in the 1950s and the entire Justice Society is going to return, then wouldn't it make more sense if they were all put into some kind of magical stasis? Rather than trying to explain away each character's age one by one, it'd be better to have a single explanation that covers all of them. Whatever happened to the JSA, Joan Garrick could have been there as well. Much better than making Jay and Joan 100+ year old immortals.

Keeping them in stasis is the main idea but wouldn't that make Jay very young? He's clearly going to be brought in much older than that.

I don't think there's anything to be gained from that other than awkward Scottish dialect written by Americans.

Evan was always the more popular of the two and it could create great tension in Rogues.

Magenta was in Iron Heights in Flash #50.

Yeah, just checked. Jensen didn't forget screwing her over before leaving. She's kind of a blank state now though.

I'd be fine with the New 52 Thawne being dismissed as coming from an alternate future timeline, since his origin and motivation were poor. The one zooming about in Flash Rebirth #1 could be from the "real" timeline.

It would probably be best to re-introduce Hunter Zolomon with a clean slate, later down the line. At the moment I think it's fine for him to be a low priority. Better to re-establish who the "Flash Family" are and who Professor Zoom is, before worrying about the "Zoom Family".

Actually it would make sense for Hunter to be introduced as a legacy. His powers are connected to timestream directly so he's effected by Rebirth. After Thawne's Rebirth, they were already plotting a team up in Iron Heights.

They won't be getting rid of New Wally anytime soon. He was a big part of the initial Rebirth promotion, was one of only two heroes "locked in" for Teen Titans Rebirth from day one (the other being Robin) and has been a big part of the current Flash series, where Williamson has been doing a great job with him.

It does make finding a home for Impulse trickier though, unless they keep him in the 30th century with XS and the Legion of Super-Heroes, or if they try a new Young Justice series that is somehow distinct from both Titans and Teen Titans.

It depends on how fanbase reacts, really. They had to push him more so SJWs wouldn't whine about "white version" taking everything away from him. The inital goal worked so slowly showing him door isn't impossible anymore.

I'm of the opinion that Young Justice era served it's purpose and needs to be disbanded at this point but Impulse brings in a flavor no other speedster can (especially not nuWally) so I don't think it's a good idea.

That seems like overkill. They could just blame it all on Turbine, then bring him back to "clean up" the Speed Force.

Original speed force is already reintroduced in Rebirth. It's again a wibbly wobbly stuff instead of being a limbo knock off.Speed Force should be an unknown and lethal force. It sucked. It sucked as much as New 52 Amazons. Why don't we get rid of it like New 52 Superman or New 52 Amazons?

[Frontier]

I think with Wally II being Barry's sidekick and the new Kid Flash gives the real Bart an opening to be OG Wally's partner and come back as just Impulse.

[Lee]

Thawne and Wally's shoehorned introduction, sudden changes to Iris and immediately getting rid of Patty, using SF to be more like the particule accelarator, Barry's dumbed down IQ, his and Zoom's stupid outfits and I can go on. Only lord knows what they are going to bring into book when movie comes out.

Do you have any source confirming that these were due to the TV show, or are they your own assumptions?

Wally's intro came down from editorial (DC Comics editorial, not necessarily a direct order from WB), but in interviews Venditti and Jensen made it sound like introducing Thawne was their own idea (he got name dropped in their first annual). Brett Booth has talked about designing the DC You Flash costume (every Justice Leaguer got a new look for "DC You"), and he never said anything about being instructed to make it look like the show. It clearly took some elements from the show's suit, but it sounds like that was Booth's own decision.

And why would they write Patty out of the book just before she was introduced in the show if the idea was synergy? Same with the costume, why make the chest emblem red just as soon as the show made it white?

Pretty art and safe storytelling may have not shown you but it WAS butchered. Speed Force turned into mess, and the main reason they didn't introduce Wally into book was to combine his character with Barry. Central started to hate Flash (which is still an ongoing plot point), West family tree turned into incomprehensible mess. Pied Piper was demoted into being "look we have a gay couple in our book". Entire Flashfamily was DESTROYED, there was no Flashfamily at all and was made sure there wouldn't be one. I'm not eveb touching Rogues side of things. Let's look past the pretty art for one second.

You're being condescending.

The Flash was still the Flash. Barry Allen's origin was the same. His powers were the same. The costume was mostly the same. Barry was still a police scientist. He was still a heroic nerd with a heart of gold. Captain Frye, Director Singh, James Forrest and Patty Spivot were still his co-workers. Iris was still a journalist. The Rogues still had a history of being thieves with super weapons.

The "Flash family" hadn't been destroyed, it just hadn't been introduced yet. Not using something isn't the same as destroying something.

You don't have to have liked it, but "the most butchered franchise of the New 52"? Compared to Teen Titans, Superboy, Hawkman etc? Teen Titans' treatment of Kid Flash did more harm to the Flash mythos than anything in the main Flash book.

Keeping them in stasis is the main idea but wouldn't that make Jay very young? He's clearly going to be brought in much older than that.

It'd put him somewhere in his 30s, with over a decade spent as The Flash. I think that's viable. The Flash of Two Worlds was published in 1961, so Jay would have been in his late 30s/early 40s in that story.

Yeah, just checked. Jensen didn't forget screwing her over before leaving. She's kind of a blank state now though.

How did he screw her over? She appeared in one panel and had no dialogue.

Original speed force is already reintroduced in Rebirth. It's again a wibbly wobbly stuff instead of being a limbo knock off.Speed Force should be an unknown and lethal force. It sucked. It sucked as much as New 52 Amazons. Why don't we get rid of it like New 52 Superman or New 52 Amazons?

"Everything you know is a lie" is a card that can only be played so many times before it loses its impact. It's simpler to say that the "outer layer" of the Speed Force got infected with a bunch of junk from the time stream due to Turbine's portals. Flash and Turbine team up and put everything back where it belongs.

[RedKnight00]

COEI will exist and Barry's death will be reintegrated to continuity again.(it's dumb to erase the greatest comic book death anyway)

Since they already messed with this last year, I would ratter keep it only in Barry's pre-FP memories. In fact, he is the same guy and started the n52 with memories from both realities, only he forgot them at some point, so it would be quite easy to make him and Iris date again.

+ This is where things start to get murky: Bart Allen's status in Flashfamily while Wally Jr. also exists. This sorta depends on older Wally getting a book or not. If that happens, Bart has a chance over there. If it doesn't, younger Wally may be put on a bus?

I could see him in a YJ Rebirth team, but I guess that would depend on how fast Tim will make his come back. And since all Robins had titles through the n52 no matter how bad they were, I would be really surprised if it doesn't happen at the end of the rebirth arc.

Otherwise, I really hope we can get a second Flash book, with two Flashes plus all the other speedster around or teased since Rebirth soon there will be no room for them in only one.

And I hope Meena is not forgotten, she was good enough for a while (better than the current Iris at least) and the idea of a Flash team has some potential. Especially with so many good characters in flash-family, and the critical success of the current 'tec run.

[PennyDreadful]

My biggest hope (aside from keeping around OG Wally and the original Titans)?

That the mishandling of the Rogues from the post-Johns era is over. Rogues as criminals with standards? Cool. Rogues killing speedsters? No way. At least, Identity Crisis, the Bart Allen Flash run, and Countdown are no longer in canon.

I've said this before, but most of the Rogues work better as blue collar guys with fancy gizmos. And I'm not even sure I want McCulloch back. Scudder grew on me in Rogues' Rebellion.

But James Jesse? I'd love to see him again. Personally, I prefer him as a screwball (think 1980s Blue Devil) or the guy who outsmarted Neron. Not the homophobic imbecile of Countdown or (God forbid) a killer. Keep him in the FBI, as Moon said.

[Lhynn]

I think with Wally II being Barry's sidekick and the new Kid Flash gives the real Bart an opening to be OG Wally's partner and come back as just Impulse.

Thatd be p. great tbh.

[LexValentine]

They should change nuWally's name to Joe.

[Waterfall]

Do you have any source confirming that these were due to the TV show, or are they your own assumptions?

Wally's intro came down from editorial (DC Comics editorial, not necessarily a direct order from WB), but in interviews Venditti and Jensen made it sound like introducing Thawne was their own idea (he got name dropped in their first annual). Brett Booth has talked about designing the DC You Flash costume (every Justice Leaguer got a new look for "DC You"), and he never said anything about being instructed to make it look like the show. It clearly took some elements from the show's suit, but it sounds like that was Booth's own decision.

And why would they write Patty out of the book just before she was introduced in the show if the idea was synergy? Same with the costume, why make the chest emblem red just as soon as the show made it white?

They are all confirmed in interviews. However Johns has said they are backtracking from further synergy (he even vetoed Harrison Wells) so who knows?
For the last paragraph: it was clearly lack of vision.

The Flash was still the Flash. Barry Allen's origin was the same

Dead mother and the adoptive father whats-his-name-again, true.

His powers were the same.

What the hell was those time moving powers? They weren't even explained at all???!
And Speed Force? It was something else ENTIRELY.

Barry was still a police

I'm glad at least they kept that much.

He was still a heroic nerd with a heart of gold.

When was the last time his "nerdiness" was mentioned? I can't seem to remember.

Captain Frye, Director Singh, James Forrest and Patty Spivot were still his co-workers. Iris was still a journalist. The Rogues still had a history of being thieves with super weapons.

And they had no personality or whatsoever. I can't even remember half of them at this point, actually.

The "Flash family" hadn't been destroyed, it just hadn't been introduced yet. Not using something isn't the same as destroying something.

Bar Tor. Young Jay Garrick over Earth 2. New 52 Wally. *mic drop*

You don't have to have liked it, but "the most butchered franchise of the New 52"? Compared to Teen Titans, Superboy, Hawkman etc? Teen Titans' treatment of Kid Flash did more harm to the Flash mythos than anything in the main Flash book.

And Manapul did absolutely NOTHING to salvage at least some parts of it. Again, y'all blinded by pretty art.

It'd put him somewhere in his 30s, with over a decade spent as The Flash. I think that's viable. The Flash of Two Worlds was published in 1961, so Jay would have been in his late 30s/early 40s in that story.

That doesn't make sense. He's always supposed to be the eldest Flash. That's his iconic role.

"Everything you know is a lie" is a card that can only be played so many times before it loses its impact. It's simpler to say that the "outer layer" of the Speed Force got infected with a bunch of junk from the time stream due to Turbine's portals. Flash and Turbine team up and put everything back where it belongs.

Calling it fake erases bullcrap like New52 Thawne (seriously, he's my fave villain) or New52 Top. Speed Force is wibbly-wobbly unknown force, it's not a limbo.