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  1. #4741
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Funny thing is that Superman isn't invincible in the comics.... so making him immune to damage in games doesn't really make sense.
    True, but if you look at classic video game design (think 1980s), every bad guy in the game could potentially kill you. This design principle was carried over to a game like Justice League Heroes where Superman really doesn't have any more durability than Batman, because the game doesn't want you to default to using Superman when you have the choice to pick a weaker character. JLH is a playable game, but not a particularly great Superman simulator. On the other extreme, you have Lego Batman 2 where every hazard that'll (temporarily) KO Batman literally has no effect on Superman (incidentally, IGN once called the game the greatest Superman game ever made). I like the game, but its gameplay is pretty simplistic and the game wasn't at risk for winning any GotY awards.

    So to balance a Superman sim and make a great game, you have to put a lot of extra thought into it. In the Arkham games, literally any thug with a gun can kill you because that's who Batman is. That guy is not a threat to Superman. You can do something like give the thug Apokoliptan or Kryptonite weapons, but then you can start asking yourself why can't Superman just use his superspeed to make those fights trivially easy (it's also fair to point out there are no great Flash video games, either). I think there are workable solutions, like make it a Metroid-style game where you start weak (say, young or weakened Superman) and grow dramatically in powers and abilities, but the overall point is that it takes more careful plotting and balancing, and nobody's really published a proof of concept yet. I'm optimistic it'll happen in my lifetime.

    I used to joke that a great Superman game would be if you took a great Arkham game, but then put in a god mode where you get a Superman skin and nothing can hurt you, you can bullet-time your enemies, you could fly, your X-Ray vision worked like Detective Mode, and every villain gets downed in one hit.

  2. #4742
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    True, but if you look at classic video game design (think 1980s), every bad guy in the game could potentially kill you. This design principle was carried over to a game like Justice League Heroes where Superman really doesn't have any more durability than Batman, because the game doesn't want you to default to using Superman when you have the choice to pick a weaker character. JLH is a playable game, but not a particularly great Superman simulator. On the other extreme, you have Lego Batman 2 where every hazard that'll (temporarily) KO Batman literally has no effect on Superman (incidentally, IGN once called the game the greatest Superman game ever made). I like the game, but its gameplay is pretty simplistic and the game wasn't at risk for winning any GotY awards.

    So to balance a Superman sim and make a great game, you have to put a lot of extra thought into it. In the Arkham games, literally any thug with a gun can kill you because that's who Batman is. That guy is not a threat to Superman. You can do something like give the thug Apokoliptan or Kryptonite weapons, but then you can start asking yourself why can't Superman just use his superspeed to make those fights trivially easy (it's also fair to point out there are no great Flash video games, either). I think there are workable solutions, like make it a Metroid-style game where you start weak (say, young or weakened Superman) and grow dramatically in powers and abilities, but the overall point is that it takes more careful plotting and balancing, and nobody's really published a proof of concept yet. I'm optimistic it'll happen in my lifetime.

    I used to joke that a great Superman game would be if you took a great Arkham game, but then put in a god mode where you get a Superman skin and nothing can hurt you, you can bullet-time your enemies, you could fly, your X-Ray vision worked like Detective Mode, and every villain gets downed in one hit.
    Or you could just have the mooks be aliens (Kryptonians are a good option), robots, demons, people armed with anti-Kryptonian tech etc.

    Dante and Bayonetta are practically indestructible in cutscenes but can still die in gameplay. And their opponents aren't human.

  3. #4743
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    True, but if you look at classic video game design (think 1980s), every bad guy in the game could potentially kill you. This design principle was carried over to a game like Justice League Heroes where Superman really doesn't have any more durability than Batman, because the game doesn't want you to default to using Superman when you have the choice to pick a weaker character. JLH is a playable game, but not a particularly great Superman simulator. On the other extreme, you have Lego Batman 2 where every hazard that'll (temporarily) KO Batman literally has no effect on Superman (incidentally, IGN once called the game the greatest Superman game ever made). I like the game, but its gameplay is pretty simplistic and the game wasn't at risk for winning any GotY awards.

    So to balance a Superman sim and make a great game, you have to put a lot of extra thought into it. In the Arkham games, literally any thug with a gun can kill you because that's who Batman is. That guy is not a threat to Superman. You can do something like give the thug Apokoliptan or Kryptonite weapons, but then you can start asking yourself why can't Superman just use his superspeed to make those fights trivially easy (it's also fair to point out there are no great Flash video games, either). I think there are workable solutions, like make it a Metroid-style game where you start weak (say, young or weakened Superman) and grow dramatically in powers and abilities, but the overall point is that it takes more careful plotting and balancing, and nobody's really published a proof of concept yet. I'm optimistic it'll happen in my lifetime.

    I used to joke that a great Superman game would be if you took a great Arkham game, but then put in a god mode where you get a Superman skin and nothing can hurt you, you can bullet-time your enemies, you could fly, your X-Ray vision worked like Detective Mode, and every villain gets downed in one hit.
    Nothing hurts him is an exaggeration..Superman isn't one punch man.Spectre could flick him across the universe.. Brainiac literally eats planets.Sure,superman takeout couple punks with guns with or without kryponite..Game can have such things i.e superman returns scene with the mission gun..bullets bouncing off

    Or you could go the old fashioned..Leap tall building or 1/8th a mile,skin that with stand anything less than a bursting shell.

    The only reason superman game isn't made is cause superman brand isn't strong.WB don't believe people will buy it and it will be a hit.If they put in money.
    "People’s Dreams... Have No Ends"

  4. #4744
    Extraordinary Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    True, but if you look at classic video game design (think 1980s), every bad guy in the game could potentially kill you. This design principle was carried over to a game like Justice League Heroes where Superman really doesn't have any more durability than Batman, because the game doesn't want you to default to using Superman when you have the choice to pick a weaker character. JLH is a playable game, but not a particularly great Superman simulator. On the other extreme, you have Lego Batman 2 where every hazard that'll (temporarily) KO Batman literally has no effect on Superman (incidentally, IGN once called the game the greatest Superman game ever made). I like the game, but its gameplay is pretty simplistic and the game wasn't at risk for winning any GotY awards.

    So to balance a Superman sim and make a great game, you have to put a lot of extra thought into it. In the Arkham games, literally any thug with a gun can kill you because that's who Batman is. That guy is not a threat to Superman. You can do something like give the thug Apokoliptan or Kryptonite weapons, but then you can start asking yourself why can't Superman just use his superspeed to make those fights trivially easy (it's also fair to point out there are no great Flash video games, either). I think there are workable solutions, like make it a Metroid-style game where you start weak (say, young or weakened Superman) and grow dramatically in powers and abilities, but the overall point is that it takes more careful plotting and balancing, and nobody's really published a proof of concept yet. I'm optimistic it'll happen in my lifetime.

    I used to joke that a great Superman game would be if you took a great Arkham game, but then put in a god mode where you get a Superman skin and nothing can hurt you, you can bullet-time your enemies, you could fly, your X-Ray vision worked like Detective Mode, and every villain gets downed in one hit.
    Funny thing is... the Lego games are a great example of having non-Superman characters be useful in gameplay. It kinda needs to be built from the stand point of "what does this character do better than Superman"... which can vary quite a lot in what it is. Then make that relevant in gameplay.

    But yeah, super-fast gameplay is hard because... actually controlling it is beyond Human reflexes.

  5. #4745
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    But yeah, super-fast gameplay is hard because... actually controlling it is beyond Human reflexes.
    And of course, even things you could do really fast in real life, like blowing or glaring, are a lot faster than reaching through menus or pressing button combinations to use ice breath or heat vision. Not to mention how rare it is to get smooth, ultra-precise flight in any game at all.

    My hot take on the Superman Game Debate is that while it might be possible to make a fun Superman action game, it would probably be more trouble than it's worth, and huge segments of the fanbase want an action game way too much. The idea pretty much bores me, to be honest.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  6. #4746
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Or you could just have the mooks be aliens (Kryptonians are a good option), robots, demons, people armed with anti-Kryptonian tech etc.

    Dante and Bayonetta are practically indestructible in cutscenes but can still die in gameplay. And their opponents aren't human.
    I've said this in the "game" thread, but the problem is that if every mook you face is a threat, then you're not gonna feel like Superman. Saying "it's a robot, or a thug with kryptonite bullets" or whatever else, it might explain why they're a threat in-game but it's not gonna be satisfying, you're not gonna feel like Superman.

    Same thing if you were to put the game on Warworld, Apokolips, or the Phantom Zone. It makes sense that Clark could be hurt by the enemies there but it's not gonna make the player feel like the Last Son of Krypton.

    I think the answer is in dynamic mission objectives. The "city as health bar" idea from Superman Returns isn't necessarily a "bad" one, but making it the primary success metric meant you spent more time worrying about stray bullets than you did in having fun beating up the bad guys.

    So maybe for one mission, the city is the health bar. For the next, maybe you're fighting foes that can hurt you and you have your own health bar. For the next, maybe you have to complete the objective within a timeframe. Maybe you have a "Clark" mission after that where you have to investigate something and if you get caught using your powers you fail the mission.

    That'd provide a lot of goal variety and keep the missions fresh. It'd help make you feel like Superman without making the entire game an easy walk-through or making you feel weaker than Superman should.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  7. #4747
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I've said this in the "game" thread, but the problem is that if every mook you face is a threat, then you're not gonna feel like Superman. Saying "it's a robot, or a thug with kryptonite bullets" or whatever else, it might explain why they're a threat in-game but it's not gonna be satisfying, you're not gonna feel like Superman.

    Same thing if you were to put the game on Warworld, Apokolips, or the Phantom Zone. It makes sense that Clark could be hurt by the enemies there but it's not gonna make the player feel like the Last Son of Krypton.

    I think the answer is in dynamic mission objectives. The "city as health bar" idea from Superman Returns isn't necessarily a "bad" one, but making it the primary success metric meant you spent more time worrying about stray bullets than you did in having fun beating up the bad guys.

    So maybe for one mission, the city is the health bar. For the next, maybe you're fighting foes that can hurt you and you have your own health bar. For the next, maybe you have to complete the objective within a timeframe. Maybe you have a "Clark" mission after that where you have to investigate something and if you get caught using your powers you fail the mission.

    That'd provide a lot of goal variety and keep the missions fresh. It'd help make you feel like Superman without making the entire game an easy walk-through or making you feel weaker than Superman should.
    I wasn't suggesting every enemy be a major threat (some will be easier than others), but there are plenty of ways to challenge Superman through battle. You just have to make them dangerous through tiers. I.E human enemies are low difficulty, aliens are mid-difficulty and demons could be high-difficulty.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-21-2022 at 11:01 AM.

  8. #4748
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    I hate how whenever Superman gains a new superpowered addition to his cast they just send them away and oftentimes to Smallville. At least Conner had adventures in Hawaii but now they seem to play up his "clone of Superman" angle.

    I also think it's kinda weird how Superman often doesn't raise his children in Metropolis.

  9. #4749
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I hate how whenever Superman gains a new superpowered addition to his cast they just send them away and oftentimes to Smallville. At least Conner had adventures in Hawaii but now they seem to play up his "clone of Superman" angle.

    I also think it's kinda weird how Superman often doesn't raise his children in Metropolis.
    Yeah. To me, Smallville as a setting is boring and played out; Metropolis is a lot cooler and more exciting.

    Also, tangentially, Kon-El was often more interesting when he wasn't actually a partial clone of Superman, but a genetically engineered meta designed to look like Superman.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  10. #4750
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    The only reason superman game isn't made is cause superman brand isn't strong.WB don't believe people will buy it and it will be a hit.If they put in money.
    I don't believe this for a minute, and if it were really true, the advertising for IJ and SS wouldn't so prominently feature Superman. I think there's a general consensus among game devs that making a big-budget Superman video game is not so straightforward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Dante and Bayonetta are practically indestructible in cutscenes but can still die in gameplay. And their opponents aren't human.
    Oh, the disconnect between cutscenes and gameplay... Final Fantasy fans have a lot to say about that one...

    Incidentally, this is why I find myself enjoying the Death Battle channel on YouTube a lot less and less. Like they say Cloud Strife can survive an actual supernova. Then how the hell is anyone in the actual game supposed to beat him?!
    Last edited by DochaDocha; 01-21-2022 at 04:11 PM.

  11. #4751
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    I stand by the fact that Superman Returns was a really great video game. That was a perfect way to portray Superman's power level. It wasn't about worrying that SUPERMAN was going to get killed.... it was about stopping the damage to the CITY. City had a life bar you didn't. Kryptonite would drain your powers and it'd take a moment to recharge your abilities... while the city was in jeopardy. Fantastic approach.

    What it NEEDED though was more/better missions. More things to do in the city itself. I remember seeing this HUGE Metropolis to fly around... and no point to it. Unlike Spider-man games where there's always someone needing to go to the hospital or a balloon needing catching or SOMETHING to do while blowing off the main mission and swinging around town... Superman Returns was very railroady. Not much to do other than the main thing.. and then the flying robots got monotonous. It really bugged me that you unlocked the 'classic/golden age' suit with the nice vibrant colors at the end... but there wasn't anything to really DO at the end of the game.

    But gameplay? Powers? Top notch. Really wish they'd have come out with some sequels to that.

  12. #4752
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I hate how whenever Superman gains a new superpowered addition to his cast they just send them away and oftentimes to Smallville. At least Conner had adventures in Hawaii but now they seem to play up his "clone of Superman" angle.

    I also think it's kinda weird how Superman often doesn't raise his children in Metropolis.
    Makes sense to me. Superman doesn't know much about raising kids in the city. He's raised a farmboy, and he turned out pretty okay. It makes sense for him to try to recreate that experience with HIS kids.

    What doesn't make sense to ME... is Lois going along with it. Clark can commute to the city in seconds, but Lois is all about the hustle and bustle of city life and politics. Seeing her settle down in a farmhouse goes against everything her character has ever stood for.

  13. #4753
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I don't believe this for a minute, and if it were really true, the advertising for IJ and SS wouldn't so prominently feature Superman. I think there's a general consensus among game devs that making a big-budget Superman video game is not so straightforward.
    The cutscene with superman killing joker was the selling point for injustice.The shock value of good ol farmboy turning red.Not superman himself..His turn.the ss features an evil superman that had already proven his formula with injustice..It's a safe bet..You get to beat him up as harley quinn to boot.. or any other villain..Personally prefer getting to be king shark.

    If that were true,they wouldn't be making inter-galactic god beating kaiju punching level gameplays with other characters and verses..the same developers ,i mean.. superman's abilities are pretty standard.. Strength,speed, durability and flight..if the consensus think is true,it could be a code for "i think superman is boring..Gonna make something cool instead"..lots of directors and script writers have that opinion.

    WB wouldn't even make an aquaman game..And that guy made billion dollar..Another reason i find is inertia from previous policy of "batman=entirety of wb's superhero franchise".

    I mean,why don't we have a western game with jonah hex like say "sword of tsushima".same reasons.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 01-21-2022 at 05:36 PM.
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  14. #4754
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    I don't play a lot of games these days, so I'm just going to ask you to name a handful of games that prove that an ideal Superman video game has been accomplished. I simply don't believe that some game developer has pitched to Warner Bros Interactive (who don't publish many games as it is) the ideal, or close to ideal, Superman game and WBI simply said, "Sorry, Superman doesn't sell."

    I think a DBZ-style fighter could work for Superman, but I don't think WBI will ever let that fly. They'll make it a DC Comics-wide title and throw in some contrivance why Superman and the Joker are on a level playing field. But it's fun to think about a Superman fighting game where the combatants are only from the Super-verse.

  15. #4755
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I don't play a lot of games these days, so I'm just going to ask you to name a handful of games that prove that an ideal Superman video game has been accomplished. I simply don't believe that some game developer has pitched to Warner Bros Interactive (who don't publish many games as it is) the ideal, or close to ideal, Superman game and WBI simply said, "Sorry, Superman doesn't sell."

    I think a DBZ-style fighter could work for Superman, but I don't think WBI will ever let that fly. They'll make it a DC Comics-wide title and throw in some contrivance why Superman and the Joker are on a level playing field. But it's fun to think about a Superman fighting game where the combatants are only from the Super-verse.
    I am gonna wait..if that ww game turns out epic.Then i would believe i am right.
    I had in the game thread.
    https://youtu.be/yXlg1BGBHBI

    https://youtu.be/g7e3xMR671E
    https://youtu.be/aXJ5nfx0zFs
    https://youtu.be/028l0qKEOh0(something like this for when the dude takes on the spectre..)

    Make it semi-procedurally generated if you want to go to space. Make the environments destructable...planet busting/pushing feats would be something new entirely in games though..Animating that would be easy.. it's done to death..But as part of game itself will be new...i am sure they could do it.

    I feel greenlantern is the hardest character to make game out of.I mean,making constructs from what you feed into computer real time and on top of that having game play with those same constructs.. It's gonna need some heavy innovation..or you will need to actively restrict the number of constructs to preprogrammed and designed ones only.That wouldn't be much of a simulator.Atleast,a nerfed one is possible.

    Superman?yeah! He's Hercules that flies.He's basically sun wukong with lesser variety in abilities and more ridiculous feats like sneezing planets away and whatnot.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 01-21-2022 at 08:13 PM.
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