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  1. #3961
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Blame that on the writers.
    There's equal blame to go around between fans and writers, they often feed into each other.

    But:


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You know, I often find the same people who say stuff like this are often the first to get outraged when a comic does something they don't like.
    There's some truth to this as well

  2. #3962
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    There's equal blame to go around between fans and writers, they often feed into each other.

    But:




    There's some truth to this as well
    The way I look at it is the chicken and the egg situation. Did fans start taking the comics to seriously before or after the writers started? My money's on after.

  3. #3963
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The way I look at it is the chicken and the egg situation. Did fans start taking the comics to seriously before or after the writers started? My money's on after.
    I agree that it is more likely to be after, but then fans who grow up with those comics become writers and repeat the same trends, maybe even missing the point of the early serious stuff and just doubling down on shallow repetitions of it (like the responses to Watchmen and TDKR), and then other fans eat that up. While it maybe started with writers, at this point it might be a two way street.

  4. #3964
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I agree that it is more likely to be after, but then fans who grow up with those comics become writers and repeat the same trends, maybe even missing the point of the early serious stuff and just doubling down on shallow repetitions of it (like the responses to Watchmen and TDKR), and then other fans eat that up. While it maybe started with writers, at this point it might be a two way street.
    I've seen a LOT of that with Daredevil writers and fans.... soooo much....

  5. #3965
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    As if batman likes being violent.Maybe the part that went wrong in his Psyche does find it cathartic to beat up "people that killed his parents".But,most heroic version don't,even at a subconscious level.Also,"Clark avoids doing that" Is a bunch of nonsense.He doesn't deal with the same in metropolis.Gotham is a hellhole.So, justification already provided.

    Unlike superman who "loves human life",Bruce doesn't kill because he thinks he will go crazy if he does.There is no "spirit of no kill" rule there.The spirit of no kill rule is basically comics code and commercialisation to begin with.It's easier to present a "thou shall not kill" hero to a society that believes in rigid rules written in a stone or a book as absolutes(I don't care if people don't kill.i do believe life is precious.But,I am not gonna sit here and say that should be an absolute).It's his personal code(Except for when Bruce tries to push his moral code on others like Jason).I honestly think it's the reverse and Clark is the one who lacks moral courage and discipline,Not Bruce.It's the same reason he gets turned bad.Superman is naive good.Batman constantly meets his demons. superman by definition, can't have them.(atleast in appearance) due to him.being "an ideal to strive towards".

    You also need to realise that you are dealing with vigilantes in first place.They aren't meant to be emulated in the first place.They are a bunch of outlaws.You only root for because they are in the right or motivations are relatable.You root for them because they are power fantasy.You can only argue that these guys shouldn't exist in reality.I would agree.But,then this ain't reality and it has different world.Setting up a vigilante outlaw who is not meant to be rolemodel figure as that itself, is laughable.What's next people get to believe a theif is queen of England.Then again, it's fiction. You can have that. Make people believe that. Problem with superman is that, does it work? The character is deemed boring. why? cause there is no tangible conflict within the character or outside. That much I can agree. It's that simple. People don't connect with superman's struggles(those who say he is boring)
    I think it's a matter of if the reader/viewer understands and empathizes with the inherent challenges the hero has to overcome. Batman? I can't empathize with him. So to me his moral philosophizing comes across as empty rhetoric and meaningless drivel. Batman doesn't even know what some of his demons are sometimes. It's hard to say he faces them when he doesn't always even know them.

    Superman's conflict is that he has this idea of what he should be, a goal that normal people would see as impossible and not even try to achieve. He inspires other people (such as Livewire) by showing them what they could be. But, like with Livewire, that's not as easy as smiling and saying hi to people. In some ways that's harder than what Batman does. Being mild-mannered when dealing with someone who insults you for just being there? That's not easy. It's the sort of tedious challenge that is hard because of how tedious it is.

    Also... the bit about them being vigilantes has less weight when(in Justice League) they have a headquarters and PR staff.

  6. #3966
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    Today's controversial Superman opinion: he's smarter than Batman. Easily.

  7. #3967
    Spectacular Member The Frog Bros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    That said, I like Superman III, MoS, and BvS. I can rewatch those. None of the other stuff has kept me in my seat for a long time. I say that because the 78 movie is treated like the most important thing in the history of the character, but if each and every Superman movie was 20% on RT with a poor box office it wouldn't make any difference to me as a fan.
    Never actually seen Superman III. May have to give it a look...

    wasnt-this-the-plot-to-superman-iii.jpg
    "There is nothing quite so perfect as the exact way in which comics combine the word and image." --Alan Moore
    "Before it was a Bomb, the Bomb was an Idea. Superman, however, was a Faster, Stronger, Better Idea." --Grant Morrison

  8. #3968
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Frog Bros View Post
    Never actually seen Superman III. May have to give it a look...
    Short version: mega-rich guy other than Lex Luthor does stuff and decides to try killing Superman as part of it. Oh and one of his attempts involves an evil computer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    Today's controversial Superman opinion: he's smarter than Batman. Easily.
    You say controversial, I say proven fact.

  9. #3969
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    Today's controversial Superman opinion: he's smarter than Batman. Easily.
    He is though, it's not controversial.

  10. #3970
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpmaluki View Post
    He is though, it's not controversial.
    Superman's intelligence when it comes to science is highly dependent on the writer and while he is actually rarely written as an idiot, to say he is as smart as Batman is debatable at best.

    My controversial opinion is that fans greatly overestimate Kryptonian intelligence and the desire for them to be smarter than humans is an overreaction to perceived mistreatment of Superman over the years.

  11. #3971
    Extraordinary Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Superman's intelligence when it comes to science is highly dependent on the writer and while he is actually rarely written as an idiot, to say he is as smart as Batman is debatable at best.

    My controversial opinion is that fans greatly overestimate Kryptonian intelligence and the desire for them to be smarter than humans is an overreaction to perceived mistreatment of Superman over the years.
    So all the fantastic elements from Krypton and the rocket which traveled the cosmos and corrected it's path midflight to dodge event horizons (stationary and roving), asteroids, stars going nova, etc are just because Superman fans have sour grapes over Batman's intelligence doubling every passing year?

    I guess the Phantom Zone projector really is just a view master.

    They were objectively more advanced than us. Come on.

  12. #3972
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    So all the fantastic elements from Krypton and the rocket which traveled the cosmos and corrected it's path midflight to dodge event horizons (stationary and roving), asteroids, stars going nova, etc are just because Superman fans have sour grapes over Batman's intelligence doubling every passing year?

    I guess the Phantom Zone projector really is just a view master.

    They were objectively more advanced than us. Come on.
    Humans in the DCU have created pretty impressive stuff too. I'm nit not saying Kryptonians weren't highly advanced but they aren't infallible and they did end up destroying their own planet, something we've managed to avoid thus far.

  13. #3973
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Superman's intelligence when it comes to science is highly dependent on the writer and while he is actually rarely written as an idiot, to say he is as smart as Batman is debatable at best.

    My controversial opinion is that fans greatly overestimate Kryptonian intelligence and the desire for them to be smarter than humans is an overreaction to perceived mistreatment of Superman over the years.
    Supermans parents were still dumb enough to not build a bigger pod.

  14. #3974
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Humans in the DCU have created pretty impressive stuff too. I'm nit not saying Kryptonians weren't highly advanced but they aren't infallible and they did end up destroying their own planet, something we've managed to avoid thus far.
    according to your logic, humans are smarter than brainiac and more powerful than supercelestials. all the intelligence and power of humans is a script, the simple fact that lex luthor or batman are still alive is proof of that.

  15. #3975
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaVi View Post
    according to your logic, humans are smarter than brainiac and more powerful than supercelestials.
    This is a huge leap to the moon from what I said.

    all the intelligence and power of humans is a script.
    Same goes for Kryptonians.

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