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  1. #4006
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    This applies to practically every superhero in DC and even in Marvel. So it's weird logic that people would think Superman is boring for doing what is expected of him in the way he is expected to do it, but we're not applying that to everyone else when they do exactly the same thing.
    It's Tall Poppy Syndrome. Because Superman has been portrayed as "the best", he's especially susceptible to this trope.

    With everyone else, they'll forever be reminded that no matter how good they are, they'll never be as good as Clark Kent/Superman.

  2. #4007
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    It's Tall Poppy Syndrome. Because Superman has been portrayed as "the best", he's especially susceptible to this trope.

    With everyone else, they'll forever be reminded that no matter how good they are, they'll never be as good as Clark Kent/Superman.
    How often are the other characters actually reminded of that though? Especially back in the old comics when Superman actually WAS the best, but it's not like they crossed over into each others books all that often for him to show them up. And oddly, the older JL comics were better at giving everyone something to do even with Superman on the team.

    It seems like a fabricated problem to justify complaints about the character from people who don't actually consume that much of a varied array of stories with him, so they "fix him" to appeal to these people who are still not inclined to read the fixes anyway. If it was that simple, Batman being the good guy who beats everyone because he's the best would be regarded as boring and we'd get evil versions of him by now.

  3. #4008
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    How often are the other characters actually reminded of that though? Especially back in the old comics when Superman actually WAS the best, but it's not like they crossed over into each others books all that often for him to show them up. And oddly, the older JL comics were better at giving everyone something to do even with Superman on the team.

    It seems like a fabricated problem to justify complaints about the character from people who don't actually consume that much of a varied array of stories with him, so they "fix him" to appeal to these people who are still not inclined to read the fixes anyway. If it was that simple, Batman being the good guy who beats everyone because he's the best would be regarded as boring and we'd get evil versions of him by now.
    I'm speaking from a Meta Perspective of course.

    Arguably, this was done with Batman by recent interpretations making him a tortured soul or having an unhealthy social life despite being a skilled crime-fighter.

  4. #4009
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I'm speaking from a Meta Perspective of course.

    Arguably, this was done with Batman by recent interpretations making him a tortured soul or having an unhealthy social life despite being a skilled crime-fighter.
    All that did was make him cool in an edgelord way that still appeals to the lowest common denominator. So he still gets to be the "cool badass" who is still a good guy and always wins, he's just superficially flawed (but still in a macho, "badass" way)

  5. #4010
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    All that did was make him cool in an edgelord way that still appeals to the lowest common denominator. So he still gets to be the "cool badass" who is still a good guy and always wins, he's just superficially flawed (but still in a macho, "badass" way)
    Aren't people that call Superman boring because he's perfect also from that same denominator?

  6. #4011
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Aren't people that call Superman boring because he's perfect also from that same denominator?
    Yes.

    Well, not always. A lot of people who think Superman is boring and/or too perfect are just people who haven't been exposed to the good versions of the character. They're not necessarily among the lowest common denominator, they're just ill-informed, and if they were given a good Superman story they'd adjust their opinion accordingly and join us in the sun.

    The lowest common denominator who will never get Superman because he's not a toxic, sad, tortured image of "masculinity" can all f*ck off; no amount of quality Superman will change their minds. But those people aren't who this franchise should be trying to appeal to; let Batman have the high schoolers and try-hards who think a show of force is a show of strength, the Superman fandom is better off without trying to pull those people into our ranks.

    ....that's not meant to insult the Batman fandom. There's lot of great people in that fandom and I enjoy a good Batman story as much as the next guy (emphasis on "good"). But Bruce easily appeals to the lowest common denominator in a way Clark doesn't, and I'm perfectly fine with that.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  7. #4012
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Aren't people that call Superman boring because he's perfect also from that same denominator?
    Like Ascended said, there might be some overlap.

    Batman as he can sometimes be depicted is someone who (intentionally or unintentionally) appeals to those who idealize a certain image of masculinity that we are better off not embracing.

    And this is more for the post-Frank Miller iterations of Batman, usually not any from before that.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 04-11-2021 at 03:41 PM.

  8. #4013
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    All that did was make him cool in an edgelord way that still appeals to the lowest common denominator. So he still gets to be the "cool badass" who is still a good guy and always wins, he's just superficially flawed (but still in a macho, "badass" way)
    Some of the comics depict Batman as full on paranoid nutjob. There was a Justice League arc where we find out Batman had been collecting weapons to use to literally DESTROY the entire League! Why? same logic as in BvS! "I know I can't beat them on my own." So... "just in case" he cooked up "non-lethal" schemes to take them all out. And his insane plans and weapons got stolen by a supervillain.... oooopppssss....

  9. #4014
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Some of the comics depict Batman as full on paranoid nutjob. There was a Justice League arc where we find out Batman had been collecting weapons to use to literally DESTROY the entire League! Why? same logic as in BvS! "I know I can't beat them on my own." So... "just in case" he cooked up "non-lethal" schemes to take them all out. And his insane plans and weapons got stolen by a supervillain.... oooopppssss....
    And it just created the narrative that Batman was so badass he could come up with ways to take down the Gods of the JL and is totally the alpha male of the group.

    If the intent was for him to be portrayed as fallible and in the wrong, it backfired epically among the fanbase.

  10. #4015
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    And it just created the narrative that Batman was so badass he could come up with ways to take down the Gods of the JL and is totally the alpha male of the group.

    If the intent was for him to be portrayed as fallible and in the wrong, it backfired epically among the fanbase.
    The Dark Knight Returns in a nutshell

  11. #4016
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    The Dark Knight Returns in a nutshell
    Yep. Not a coincidence that there was an upsurge in popularity for Batman after that, shows no signs of stopping, and basically all of the insufferable material for him came out after that.

    It's an example of something going right in the worst ways possible.

  12. #4017
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    And this is more for the post-Frank Miller iterations of Batman, usually not any from before that.
    Oh absolutely. I'm not bashing on Batman or his fans. Just a segment of his fans, and one version of the character. I like Batman....just usually not the modern version. And most Bat fans are good people, there's just some fools among them, and those folk think Clark is boring and I'm fine with them thinking that.

    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Some of the comics depict Batman as full on paranoid nutjob. There was a Justice League arc where we find out Batman had been collecting weapons to use to literally DESTROY the entire League! Why? same logic as in BvS! "I know I can't beat them on my own." So... "just in case" he cooked up "non-lethal" schemes to take them all out. And his insane plans and weapons got stolen by a supervillain.... oooopppssss....
    I actually agree with Bruce on that one, in a general sense. Mind control, clones, magic, alternate reality tyrants, that stuff is out there, and you're dealing with a team where each member is literally a walking extinction level event. Each and every one of them should have a game plan for subduing each of their number. It's the responsible thing to do, given the potential consequences. And history provides a precedent; which member of the Big 7 has never once been possessed, mind controlled, led astray, or otherwise become a potential threat? Whether Bruce screwed it all up or took things too far is another matter, but I agree with the idea.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  13. #4018
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Spiderman is as optimisitic and fun as clark.Yet,that guy gets to enjoy popularity.Power,speed,...etc are relative things so i am not taking that into account cause it doesn't matter.
    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

  14. #4019
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Oh absolutely. I'm not bashing on Batman or his fans. Just a segment of his fans, and one version of the character. I like Batman....just usually not the modern version. And most Bat fans are good people, there's just some fools among them, and those folk think Clark is boring and I'm fine with them thinking that.

    I actually agree with Bruce on that one, in a general sense. Mind control, clones, magic, alternate reality tyrants, that stuff is out there, and you're dealing with a team where each member is literally a walking extinction level event. Each and every one of them should have a game plan for subduing each of their number. It's the responsible thing to do, given the potential consequences. And history provides a precedent; which member of the Big 7 has never once been possessed, mind controlled, led astray, or otherwise become a potential threat? Whether Bruce screwed it all up or took things too far is another matter, but I agree with the idea.
    This reminded me of when Batman was Blackrock. He was one of the worst hosts for the Blackrock ever. The one time he actually had the strength to fight Superman with his bare hands... and Superman kicks his ass. Eventually Blackrock decided Batman was too crazy and that being stored as an alien curiosity in the Fortress of Solitude was preferable.

  15. #4020
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    the difference between superman and the rest is that superman pays for every mistake he makes, while the rest get away with it.
    batman creates plans to kill his friends = nothing happens it's batman, how cool.
    ww attacks her friends = nothing happens, shows the power of women.
    but with superman everything that is not smiling and letting others humiliate him,is wrong.

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