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  1. #2521
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That roster had victories over Eclipso, the Dominators and Despero. They may not have been the original League but they were far from second string weaklings. If they were, doesn't having them lose to Doomsday lose a lot of impact?
    Doomsday was always meant to be higher than those guys in terms of pure power. He stayed that way. If a hulk joins the battle, he automatically becomes the "strongest one there is". That's just how it goes.

  2. #2522
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Yeah! In booster gold's dream he is top of the pecking order.

    Lol! This is the funniest thing i heard this day. Thanks for the laugh. This guy being the top of the food chain would hilarious. Seriously, Booster is higher on popularity and was newer that high in power pecking order. Winning against doomsday wouldn't have mattered.
    I suggest you actually read stories about these guys and who was in the Death of Superman instead of going off memes.

    No, it i am not. I will give you a real world wrestling example, kane's debut. Kane debuted tombstoning the undertaker(they are two characters in wrestling.the undertaker is very popular and is high in the pecking order) . If the reverse occurred, it wouldn't have made the undertaker any more dominant in the eyes of fans.superman fighting getting his ass kicked by darkseid, mongol(back then), spectre, dr. Manhattan.. Etc is losing. Because he is below them in pecking order of power and over them in popularity. These are the factors that determine whether something is jobbing or not.
    Thanks for proving my point. Doomsday went on to become one of Superman's most well known and used villains after his debut. His defeat of the League and fight with Superman sold him as a serious threat. The JL were the very definition of jobbers in that story.

    Yeah! It does. You are kidding yourself if you think writers don't haave any power over how readers feel. They do to an extent. They wouldn't be trying to kill characters like wally, if they didn't. Yes, it does work. Wally is almost erased.
    You're not even talking about jobbing any more. You're just moving the goal posts.
    How well a character is written helps them go over.
    A point I agree with but, again, has nothing to do with the topic.

    You might view fights as trivial nonsense.
    I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth.

    But, the reality is this is a sub genre of action genre. Fights are important part of that. Test of strengths are important for the same.
    Judging by some of your comments here, you seem to think this only applies to Superman.

    You pretty much contradicted

  3. #2523
    Unstoppable Member KC's Avatar
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    In response to an opinion from a few pages back. I think Secret Origin was a great origin for Superman and a great story. I saw some people say it lacked soul but honestly, I completely disagree. Johns managed to tell a great story whilst keeping in most of (what I believe are) the essential parts of Superman's origin story.

  4. #2524
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I suggest you actually read stories about these guys and who was in the Death of Superman instead of going off memes.



    Thanks for proving my point. Doomsday went on to become one of Superman's most well known and used villains after his debut. His defeat of the League and fight with Superman sold him as a serious threat. The JL were the very definition of jobbers in that story.



    You're not even talking about jobbing any more. You're just moving the goal posts.


    A point I agree with but, again, has nothing to do with the topic.


    I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth.



    Judging by some of your comments here, you seem to think this only applies to Superman.

    You pretty much contradicted
    I don't need to. I know enough to guess thag. Booster gold unless time travel isn't involved. In a straight up fight isn't supposed to go toe to toe with a monster like doomsday.

    So? That doesn't qualify as jobbing. Undertaker losing didn't make him job to kane. Losing and jobbing are two different concepts. Doomsday was a new character they wanted to push. They pushed him by beating lower power guys whoms popularity wouldn't improve with a win to doomsday. For something to be jobbing powerlevel need to be defied and popularity of the loser needs to be affected adversely. both need to be compared.

    No, i wasn't. You said, "It has nothing to do with how the audience comes to feel about the loser".i assumed, you were talking about jobbing. Well, you know what they did to wally first after returning . They nerfed him so that he isn't faster than barry. They made him job to damian wayne. Because damian even with his popularity,Isn't a wally west.damian is lower on the pecking order of power and lower in popularity. He beat wally and gave him heart problem. Which is as said defying power hierarchy and trying to increase a popularity. Here it's two characters. Whether it was successful or not. Doesn't matter.

    I am glad we agree on that. Then on to my next point going into detail of the statement , How good a character cter is written includes their fights,wins and loses.. Etc. Especially, since this is an action media.

  5. #2525
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    In response to an opinion from a few pages back. I think Secret Origin was a great origin for Superman and a great story. I saw some people say it lacked soul but honestly, I completely disagree. Johns managed to tell a great story whilst keeping in most of (what I believe are) the essential parts of Superman's origin story.
    I think I acknowledged that it kept all the basic parts of a Superman origin story that I like (Powers grow over time, Lex and Clark grew up in Smallville together, Clark is an outcast growing up, Clark faces rejection at first as Superman, etc) but other origins do specific parts better imo. Itís not a bad story though, itís just not really one I love. For me itís squarely in the middle between the origins I love (Birthright, New 52 Action, American Alien, Man and Superman) and the ones I think are weak or donít hold up (Byrne Man of Steel, Year One).
    Last edited by Vordan; 02-16-2020 at 12:19 AM.

  6. #2526
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I don't need to. I know enough to guess thag.
    “Guess” being the key word here.
    So? That doesn't qualify as jobbing. Undertaker losing didn't make him job to kane. Losing and jobbing are two different concepts. Doomsday was a new character they wanted to push.
    The bolded is what jobbing is.
    They pushed him by beating lower power guys whoms popularity wouldn't improve with a win to doomsday.
    Do you have any idea how contradictory this sentence is? The League were lower on the totem pole but they had to lose to sell Doomsday as someone worthy of killing Superman? And how do you know their popularity wouldn’t have been improved if they beat Doomsday, a creature who killed Superman?


    For something to be jobbing powerlevel need to be defied and popularity of the loser needs to be affected adversely.
    The League lost to dumb monster and the story had to forget about their experience, intelligence and ranged abilities. They jobbed.


    No, i wasn't. You said, "It has nothing to do with how the audience comes to feel about the loser".i assumed, you were talking about jobbing.
    Yeah and I was correct. How an audience feels about the loser after the fight is immaterial to whether or not they jobbed. Wally’s popularity didn’t go down after losing to Damian and Damian isn’t any more popular despite beating Wally. Your problem is you are focusing on the aftermath of jobbing rather than the act itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Doomsday was always meant to be higher than those guys in terms of pure power. He stayed that way. If a hulk joins the battle, he automatically becomes the "strongest one there is". That's just how it goes.
    I don't think you know anything about Eclipso and Despero if you believe this. He sure as hell was was not more powerful than them when he debuted.

  7. #2527
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    “Guess” being the key word here.

    The bolded is what jobbing is.

    Do you have any idea how contradictory this sentence is? The League were lower on the totem pole but they had to lose to sell Doomsday as someone worthy of killing Superman? And how do you know their popularity wouldn’t have been improved if they beat Doomsday, a creature who killed Superman?



    The League lost to dumb monster and the story had to forget about their experience, intelligence and ranged abilities. They jobbed.



    Yeah and I was correct. How an audience feels about the loser after the fight is immaterial to whether or not they jobbed. Wally’s popularity didn’t go down after losing to Damian and Damian isn’t any more popular despite beating Wally. Your problem is you are focusing on the aftermath of jobbing rather than the act itself.



    I don't think you know anything about Eclipso and Despero if you believe this. He sure as hell was was not more powerful than them when he debuted.
    I can guess. Because i have a general Idea of where he stands. I know the feats and powers.

    Nope! Pushing a character isn't jobbing. You can push a charcter with jobbing or without it. Pushing doesn't mean jobbing automatically . For instance, booster himself. He is pushed. He gets popular and much jobbing isn't required.here, doomsday wasn't even pushed to get over. They wanted to insert him in a high position of the power hierarchy. Not the popularity hirerachy.

    No, it isn't contradictory. Two variables, popularity and power.league was lower on the totem pole in regards to power. Popularity wouldn't be affected regardless Because doomsday is an unknown whom's popularity was zero.it would be like beating a random fodder. . Let's say, if that was darkseid instead of Doomsday. high powerlevel and high popularity as a villain. Meant to be higher than booster in both. If booster beats him and it is earned. then his popularity may go up.

    What is you problem here? Is it that Doomsday is dumb or doomsday shouldn't be that powerful? If its the former. I have no argument. The latter isn't true. Characters go up the powerhierarchy with their feats. Doomsday is a creature that can beat darkseid. Just because you say it. Doesn't mean it is. As long as i there isn't a visible repercussion to losing with popularity and it doesn't defy existing powers hierarchy. It isn't jobbing. I haven't met anyone who say they aren't a fan of booster cause he lost to doomsday. Infact, dark knight returns started the downfall of superman and stooge, ultra Conservative tag was given to superman along with the big L.

    Didn't it? As i said, footing of two characters was the aim. Barry's footing got better by the sheer fact of getting wally out of the way, even if damian's didn't as much.wally's didn't comeout looking great for new fans. Wally is only propelled cause of his loyal fanbase and older material.his current material doesn't get him over. Especially with new ones. Aftermath determines wether a jobbing attempt was successful. Here, it definitely was.

    Eclipso is the thing that takes over people and makes them bad. It has something to with God's vengeance or something. Despero is the three eyed dude who controls minds and stuff. Doomsday whoops them both with one tied behind his back in pure power and strength. Because he doesn't have a brain for to control and he is already primal. Doomsday is one heck of plot device.

    The top of the food chain power hierarchy is the presence.
    The top of the food chain popularity hierarchy is the batman.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-16-2020 at 01:35 AM.

  8. #2528
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    It depends on what you want out of Superman. A lot of people really love Superman: For All Seasons, but I honestly find it kind of corny and lame. It’s an uplifting story but not really one that I can connect to on a deeper level.
    I'm always on the fence with re reading that kinda story. It's good to refresh, but like... I was reading Batman and the Mad Monk recently and it was such a bummer that it wasn't as good this time.

    A Priest Superman story would almost certainly be very cynical and depressing in tone, and there have been a lot of failures when writers try to tell Superman stories in that mold. But Priest is a guy who is great at using humor and humanizing moments in his stories, his Deathstroke for example made me laugh a lot, which is not something I expected to do. He’s also good at writing noble men trapped in crap circumstances, that’s his Black Panther run summarized. And I genuinely enjoyed his usage of Superman in Deathstroke, his Clark was forced to go after Slade by the government, but unlike over in Aquaman where Abnett used him as an idiot stooge and punching bag, Priest had Supes beat Deathstroke and then give the middle finger to Adeline by putting Slade in a prison she couldn’t use him from. It was a very satisfying case of Supes being forced into the role of government stooge and yet ending it with him saying “**** this” and rebel. Priest writes an intelligent Superman, and it’s why I’m willing to read more from him.
    The weird thing is that I remember that story throwing the Aquaman appearance under. But Abnett had Superman state that he'd have come regardless because Arthur was his friend, had him refuse to take them in, then proceeded with Arthur and Mera acting on ruling pride and league insecurities, and ended with Arthur saying he should end it as Superman told him to. In Deathstroke Superman gets fooled by glow sticks while Slade carried out the assassination Superman was called to prevent. He managed to spite Adeline but as a statement of Superman not being a lapdog it was kinda like... "if you tell me to do my effing job I'll make sure that everyone loses." Uh, okay lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That roster had victories over Eclipso, the Dominators and Despero. They may not have been the original League but they were far from second string weaklings. If they were, doesn't having them lose to Doomsday lose a lot of impact?
    I mean, ultimately it was the creator or Booster Gold and "Bloodwynd" as well as that particular roster create a new monster that happened to take them by surprise. It's a pretty standard comic thing
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  9. #2529
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I really do want to see more of Lois in the kid.
    I've actually been thinking about this opinion a lot after you posted it, Robanker. And before I go on, I don't want you to feel any sense of obligation to reply or defend your stance. Not really trying to debate you, but rather I'm just coming at this from another angle, and I'm wondering if it had occurred to you or anyone else. If rather than a reply the most you get out of what comes next is a small "huh, okay, I guess" then I'm good lol

    Anyways, I'd imagine that Lois' learned cynicism isn't really something she'd really want for her kid. Like, it's a defense she's built up over time, and it's something that makes her very effective at her job, but I have to image she'd much rather she not need it. That's part of what she loves about Clark. He brings out that optimist in her, and I have to imagine that any child she'd have with Clark she'd want to lean very heavily on that idealism and natural trust when raising them.

    But the real trait from Lois that Jon seems to have gotten much to his mother's chagrin is her penchant for trouble. Over in Man of Steel issue 6, Lois, knowing full well that she'd do the same in his position, *knows* that if they don't let Jon try this space thing out with his grandpa then he'll just find a way to sneak off anyway. And her big thing is that she doesn't want to turn into her father by setting up walls that she knows are only going to make Jon want to climb them. But a part of her is her father, so she finally gets what he must've felt every time Lois got some ill-advised idea into her head.

    It's weirdly sort of karma in a way that she'd not only pass on this particular trait, but also that her kid's margin for error is on a cosmic scale. The latest preview for Legion of Super-Heroes issue 4 really drives this home because Jon makes it clear that he *knows* his mom hates this with ever fiber in her being, but she's not going to turn into her dad, so she's gonna let him walk his path and stumble along the way. To round this back out to the start of my post, I see it all as an attempt to keep Jon from one day becoming that cynic with a bad relationship with their parent that she's trying to shake.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 02-16-2020 at 01:40 PM.
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  10. #2530
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Itís not that I think Pak lacks the ability or talent to pull off similar stories of Superman dealing with ďrelevantĒ topics, itís that I donít think he wouldíve gotten permission. .
    Ah, well no argument there!

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That roster had victories over Eclipso, the Dominators and Despero. They may not have been the original League but they were far from second string weaklings. If they were, doesn't having them lose to Doomsday lose a lot of impact?
    I'm not saying they were worthless, just that they didn't have the juice that today's League has. And they didn't.
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  11. #2531
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I've actually been thinking about this opinion a lot after you posted it, Robanker. And before I go on, I don't want you to feel any sense of obligation to reply or defend your stance. Not really trying to debate you, but rather I'm just coming at this from another angle, and I'm wondering if it had occurred to you or anyone else. If rather than a reply the most you get out of what comes next is a small "huh, okay, I guess" then I'm good lol

    Anyways, I'd imagine that Lois' learned cynicism isn't really something she'd really want for her kid. Like, it's a defense she's built up over time, and it's something that makes her very effective at her job, but I have to image she'd much rather she not need it. That's part of what she loves about Clark. He brings out that optimist in her, and I have to imagine that any child she'd have with Clark she'd want to lean very heavily on that idealism and natural trust when raising them.

    But the real trait from Lois that Jon seems to have gotten much to his mother chagrin is her Jon's penchant for trouble. Over in Man of Steel issue 6, Lois, knowing full well that she'd do the same in his position, *knows* that if they don't let Jon try this space thing out with his grandpa then he'll just find a way to sneak off anyway. And her big thing is that she doesn't want to turn into her father by setting up walls that she knows is only going to make Jon want to climb them. But a part of her is her father, so she finally gets what he must've felt every time Lois got some ill-advised idea into her head.

    It's weirdly sort of karma in a way that she'd not only pass on this particular trait, but also that her kids margin for error is on a cosmic scale. The latest preview for Legion of Super-Heroes issue 4 really drives this home because Jon makes it clear that he *knows* his mom hates this with ever fiber in her being, but she's not going to turn into her dad, so she's gonna let him walk his path and stumble along the way. To round this back out to the start of my post, I see it all as an attempt to keep Jon from one day becoming that cynic with a bad relationship with their parent.
    That's a very valid point, actually, and one that shows a lot of growth for Lois which I quite like. Didn't think of it that way, and while I do want to see more of Lois in a Jon's character (because I don't think anyone can doubt at this point that he's just a younger version of his dad), perhaps cynicism isn't the only way to do so.

    Though we've both read enough Silver Age to know that if not from Lois, Jon would get his sense of mischief from his old man.

    But yeah, fair point, Superlad. Now you've got me rethinking my stance on that.

  12. #2532
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    That's a very valid point, actually, and one that shows a lot of growth for Lois which I quite like. Didn't think of it that way, and while I do want to see more of Lois in a Jon's character (because I don't think anyone can doubt at this point that he's just a younger version of his dad), perhaps cynicism isn't the only way to do so.

    Though we've both read enough Silver Age to know that if not from Lois, Jon would get his sense of mischief from his old man.

    But yeah, fair point, Superlad. Now you've got me rethinking my stance on that.
    Well, that's far more than I was expecting. Thanks for taking the time to even entertain the idea in the first place (because, again, you certainly didn't have to).

    But I largely agree. While I don't personally agree that he's more or less a copy of his dad, I do acknowledge that as being a trap he's walking the line on. Right now, I'm actually really digging his modest and largely laid back attitude with the bouts of ill-advised and impetuous choices.
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  13. #2533
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    Maybe it's just me but I feel like people that gravitate towards the Post-Crisis side of things tend to over value cynicism treating it something like an X-Factor or something. But then again Post-Crisis Batman's cynicism basically was treated like some kind of super power that made him capable of defeating anyone. Probably another thing Doomsday Clock should have addressed.
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  14. #2534
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    Maybe it's just me but I feel like people that gravitate towards the Post-Crisis side of things tend to over value cynicism treating it something like an X-Factor or something. But then again Post-Crisis Batman's cynicism basically was treated like some kind of super power that made him capable of defeating anyone. Probably another thing Doomsday Clock should have addressed.
    Do you mean post-Crisis Superman has some cynicism in it, or post-Crisis DCU in general?

    I think that's definitely true for Batman and his mythos, but I think the worst aspect of post-Crisis Superman is that everything is more...muted (?) than cynical. Which may be more harmful to a character designed to be an exciting, weird, action filled wish fulfillment fantasy where anything can happen.

    But then, we have stuff like Lex Luthor who is way more slimy than his pre-COIE counterpart, so you may be onto something.

  15. #2535
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Do you mean post-Crisis Superman has some cynicism in it, or post-Crisis DCU in general?

    I think that's definitely true for Batman and his mythos, but I think the worst aspect of post-Crisis Superman is that everything is more...muted (?) than cynical. Which may be more harmful to a character designed to be an exciting, weird, action filled wish fulfillment fantasy where anything can happen.

    But then, we have stuff like Lex Luthor who is way more slimy than his pre-COIE counterpart, so you may be onto something.

    In general but Batman is the patron saint of pushing the idea that being more cynical is a part of being a stronger person so the DCU becoming more cynical is unquestionable linked to Batman. I said this a few post back but if superhero comics are power fantasies and the single most powerful person in the universe is a regular man who's cynicism, rage, and suffering are treated as having exalted him to a near mythic level of capability to the point where he's capable of taking down essentially anyone, to the point where multiple people claim he's the most dangerous man in the world it stands to reason that people will want to emulate that when they go to create their own power fantasies.

    I'm not sure exactly what popularized Hero vs Hero story lines to the magnitude they enjoy but I do know Batman fed well off of them and that they helped aggrandize his general image. Often with the idea that his paranoia and cynical nature is what gave him an edge over his fellow better natured peers because they were too trusting or too kind or some insipid junior high idea like that. There's that one silly scan floating around out there where Batman mutters under his breath about how Superman won't expect something because "Clark is a good man and he (Bruce) is not". Making the implication that good=dumb, mean=smart. But there a constant sort of background noise in post-crisis like that and it only got worse as time went on.

    I'd argue another instance was during Infinite Crisis I believe when Kal-L was going on another rant about his good old days but has a moment of clarity when he relizes that a perfect world probably wouldn't have a fleet of superpowered defenders. But I can't help but laugh at how much Supes, Wonder, and the other seemed to struggle with the idea of a reality better than the ocean of blood their own world had devolved into. Sure the scene leaves Kal-L looking like a delusional old man that's past his prime but I'll be damned if Clark and co didn't look like a bunch of little kids struggling to imaging what life outside of their war torn country could possibly be like.
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