Controversial Superman Opinions

[marhawkman]

Punching kaijuu's was superman's M.O.watch the damn Fleischer cartoons.

totes true!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr1sXxjl3pE

[Agent Z]

This astounds me..I would have let it go..But,what kinda stupid interpretation would lead people as to believe "i want superman to be goku"?has people not even read the damn post?Or are they blind to the thrust or focus of the post.

The focus of your post seems to be you bashing Superman.

My post had nothing to do with my preferences of characters..Also,@agentz's superman is postcrisis superman or that kind thing.i am not the one who constantly jumps at him/her/whatever saying "superman is this and specifically this".I am not the one saying "superman can't be this or that or whatever".

I am far from having a narrow view of what Superman is or should be.

That particular statement from @agentz was casual from a post that was meant about the.i am pretty blunt..Do i see anything special in superman that I don't see in other characters and ancient stories..The answer is no.Games of those characters have been made.

This just seems to be you rambling.

Sure enough,i have i biases and i quite open about it.Goku has writing problems..You know what akira toriyama never does..He doesn't prop the guy or gohan as end all and be of all that's good with the world.if you are going that route..Goku still entertains people.And stand by that.

What does any of this have to do with Superman's feats, which is what you were complaining about? I never stated Superman should be like this and neither did frostbite.

Punching kaijuu's was superman's M.O.watch the damn Fleischer cartoons.

No one said anything about not wanting Superman to punch kaijus. Also, M.O. doesn't mean what you think it does. Superman punched out kaijus but it isn't his only or most important character trait.

[manwhohaseverything]

The focus of your post seems to be you bashing Superman.

You presume wrong.i talk like that.Don't get me wrong i got annoyed a bit after. annoyance got you "flying brick" remark.

Yeah!it doesn't seem that way to me(you being open).See i would cheer any superman that's entertaining..And boo any superman that's boring.my opinion.

It's things and traits i am more interested in.action and Fight choreography is the name of the game.I believe,a character that built to punch should do it properly.

[Ascended]

I'm probably not the first person to express this concern, but, I firmly believe that DC is setting up Jon to be Clark's permanent replacement.

I'd believe that this was Didio's original intent. Maybe it wasn't, I don't know the man's inner thoughts, but he's admitted he never saw the appeal of Clark, and he rarely passed on a chance to screw with the character in an attempt to fix problems that weren't ever actually there.

With the new owners (and I guess the soon-to-be-even-newer-owners?) who knows? They obviously see some adaptation potential in Jon, but carrying the entire brand? I think anybody who thinks Clark isn't marketable today is blind stupid, and the market will prove the point before long. I like Jon, and I'm okay with the idea of him babysitting earth while Clark is away doing bigger things in the cosmos for a bit. But an actual, permanent replacement? No. Not gonna happen. Jon's sales are already kinda weak despite the new #1 on his cover, his coming out, and the hype of him being the new Superman of earth. If all of those things combined can't make the kid sell then he doesn't have the juice to sustain the entire "S" franchise over the long haul.

[superduperman]

I'd believe that this was Didio's original intent. Maybe it wasn't, I don't know the man's inner thoughts, but he's admitted he never saw the appeal of Clark, and he rarely passed on a chance to screw with the character in an attempt to fix problems that weren't ever actually there.

With the new owners (and I guess the soon-to-be-even-newer-owners?) who knows? They obviously see some adaptation potential in Jon, but carrying the entire brand? I think anybody who thinks Clark isn't marketable today is blind stupid, and the market will prove the point before long. I like Jon, and I'm okay with the idea of him babysitting earth while Clark is away doing bigger things in the cosmos for a bit. But an actual, permanent replacement? No. Not gonna happen. Jon's sales are already kinda weak despite the new #1 on his cover, his coming out, and the hype of him being the new Superman of earth. If all of those things combined can't make the kid sell then he doesn't have the juice to sustain the entire "S" franchise over the long haul.

I've wondered for a while if this isn't the public domain issue or just fear of another Seigel lawsuit. Things like Death of the Justice League and him taking over one of the main Super-books makes me wonder if they aren't testing the waters for something more permanent. You see this with other characters too. Yara Flor as Wonder Woman, Duke Thomas as Batman. They are really pushing the whole legacy thing. Even Superman & Lois with the boys. They seem determined to lay the groundwork for legacy characters in a way they haven't in the past. I just get the feeling that there's something bigger going on.

[Ascended]

I've wondered for a while if this isn't the public domain issue or just fear of another Seigel lawsuit. Things like Death of the Justice League and him taking over one of the main Super-books makes me wonder if they aren't testing the waters for something more permanent. You see this with other characters too. Yara Flor as Wonder Woman, Duke Thomas as Batman. They are really pushing the whole legacy thing. Even Superman & Lois with the boys. They seem determined to lay the groundwork for legacy characters in a way they haven't in the past. I just get the feeling that there's something bigger going on.

I think DC started looking at permanent replacements back when the heirs sued for the rights again and that was what, ten years ago? More?

I doubt the public domain poses much of a threat to DC's point of view in the short term; almost everything people recognize as being "Superman" will be locked down for decades to come, even if Action goes public when it's currently supposed to (in a bit over a decade). DC will still have trademarks, they'll still have the backlog of iconic content, and the army of lawyers to delay, disrupt, and discourage any public domain usage they feel is a threat to them. If you or I tried to create public domain Superman content, we'd have a hell of a time getting it off the ground and would have a lot of crap to work around, just for a Superman the public hasn't recognized in seventy-odd years. Easier to just create a proxy, and that's exactly what DC hopes everyone does if/when Action #1 enters the domain.

But I do think things have come to a head, between Steamboat Willie entering public domain in a couple years, and the heirs putting up a hell of a fight over the ownership not so terribly long ago. I think DC does absolutely want a Superman they don't have to share, and they want their version to be what people think of when they think "Superman" so that any other versions, from the heirs or public domain, are disregarded by audiences as illegitimate.

[marhawkman]

I think DC started looking at permanent replacements back when the heirs sued for the rights again and that was what, ten years ago? More?

I doubt the public domain poses much of a threat to DC's point of view in the short term; almost everything people recognize as being "Superman" will be locked down for decades to come, even if Action goes public when it's currently supposed to (in a bit over a decade). DC will still have trademarks, they'll still have the backlog of iconic content, and the army of lawyers to delay, disrupt, and discourage any public domain usage they feel is a threat to them. If you or I tried to create public domain Superman content, we'd have a hell of a time getting it off the ground and would have a lot of crap to work around, just for a Superman the public hasn't recognized in seventy-odd years. Easier to just create a proxy, and that's exactly what DC hopes everyone does if/when Action #1 enters the domain.

But I do think things have come to a head, between Steamboat Willie entering public domain in a couple years, and the heirs putting up a hell of a fight over the ownership not so terribly long ago. I think DC does absolutely want a Superman they don't have to share, and they want their version to be what people think of when they think "Superman" so that any other versions, from the heirs or public domain, are disregarded by audiences as illegitimate.

Corporate wants an IP they fully control, public domain is a thorn to them. So changing to new characters kinda makes sense for IP control reasons.

[Frostbite883]

What does any of this have to do with Superman's feats, which is what you were complaining about? I never stated Superman should be like this and neither did frostbite.

He's deflecting from the main argument, but I'm glad the man is being upfront on his Goku bias. Now that I think it, the dude should want Goku to be his own character rather than him essentially copying off Big Blue (from his recent origin to having a race of similarly powerful people in the Saiyans like Superman and the other Kryptonians to gaining a kind of similar cast of characters, etc).

To be more of his universe's top underdog! Not a Superman ripoff. Why would manwhohas not seem bothered by his all time #1 fav. being reduced to becoming more and more like the Last Son of Krypton that he's not a big fan of (rhetoric question here as I think we can guess why)?

[marhawkman]

He's deflecting from the main argument, but I'm glad the man is being upfront on Goku bias. Now that I think it, the dude should want Goku to be his own character rather than him essentially coping off Big Blue (from his recent origin to having a similar race of a powerful race like the Kryptonians to gaining a kind of similar cast of characters, etc).

To be more of his universe's top underdog! Not a Superman ripoff. Why would manwhohas not seem bothered by his all time #1 fav. being reduced to becoming more and more like the Last Son of Krypton that he's not a big fan of (rhetoric question here as I think we can guess why)?

I think you're missing the point. Goku isn't usually the underdog. "But the bad guy is more powerful!" Yeah whatever.... the reader/viewer isn't expecting Goku to actually lose. It's a question of HOW, not IF, Goku will win. Sure, there's more to it than that, but, in the end, the bad guys always lose.... or in the case of Kefla annoying teens from another universe. Kale and Caulifla weren't evil.... just enemies..... who reallly wanted to see who was the stronger Saiyan. Yeah.... the universe Kale comes from has BILLIONS of Saiyans. WHEEEE!!!!. Actually, most of them don't even know martial arts. But well.. some of them are quite strong. Cabba(also a Saiyan) acts as a sort of galactic policeman, and ended up recruiting Kale and Caulifla to help him fight Goku and Vegeta. Cabba's personality is actually pretty similar to Superman's. He only agreed to fight Goku because... well the first time was a friendly sparring match, the second... he kinda had to.(plot happened... a LOT of plot happened)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INfWU31QLuA mmmm So much Goku gertting his ass kicked.... but at no point does it actually look like he's gonna lose.
Also, like I said before:

As a Kefla fanboy, I think you're nuts. Superman HAS done fights like Goku does in some comics, and it was GREAT! OOH! and in DCAU!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cG4BNJBXBU

Potentially controversial opinion: this should be normal.

Kal-El can and HAS dished out some spectacular fights, and (to quote Shao Kahn): It was GLORIOUS!

[manwhohaseverything]

As a Kefla fanboy, I think you're nuts. Superman HAS done fights like Goku does in some comics, and it was GREAT! OOH! and in DCAU!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cG4BNJBXBU

Potentially controversial opinion: this should be normal.

It's not really a great hand to hand.It's just Supes punches.Punches harder and harder.no tactics,no enemy come backs.Then enemy does,Supes gets dispatched.I think that fight with Superman/Shazam and Superman/batman 2 with supergirl againt darkseid is better example.

If i had to rank getting punched into the moon aspect..I would take one punch man over all star superman as well.

Overall these are just decent compared to action sequences i normally watch.Superman rarely faces variety of opponents.Most of them are bruisers.Don't get me wrong,I love a good slugfest.But,Mongul ain't even throwing a jab.It gets boring.

Anyways,my favourite superman fight is Superman/shazam vs black adam.That thing just flowed.A bit lacking on the speed front..But 360 degree combat in air was damn awesome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RktrJQ9WT3M&t=89s
fight starts @2:19

He's deflecting from the main argument, but I'm glad the man is being upfront on Goku bias. Now that I think it, the dude should want Goku to be his own character rather than him essentially coping off Big Blue (from his recent origin to having a similar race of a powerful race like the Kryptonians to gaining a kind of similar cast of characters, etc).

To be more of his universe's top underdog! Not a Superman ripoff. Why would manwhohas not seem bothered by his all time #1 fav. being reduced to becoming more and more like the Last Son of Krypton that he's not a big fan of (rhetoric question here as I think we can guess why)?

Cause guess what?my posts had nothing to do with Superman feats or lack there off.I quite frankly have no time to clear misconceptions.Read the post.Understand if you or @Agentz can.

[marhawkman]

It's not really a great hand to hand.It's just Supes punches.Punches harder and harder.no tactics,no enemy come backs.Then enemy does,Supes gets dispatched.I think that fight with Superman/Shazam and Superman/batman 2 with supergirl is better example.

If i had to rank getting punched into the moon aspect..I would take one punch man over all star superman as well.

Overall these are just decent compared to action sequences i normally watch.Superman rarely faces variety of opponents.Most of them are bruisers.Don't get me wrong,I love a good slugfest.But,Mongul ain't even throwing a jab.It gets boring.

Anyways,my favourite superman fight is Superman/shazam vs black adam.That thing just flowed.A bit lacking on the speed front..But 360 degree combat in air was damn awesome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RktrJQ9WT3M&t=89s
fight starts @2:19

Well, the example I gave wasn't a full fight, just the end of it. But yeah, I suppose the one you chose is a better example in the big picture. But I thought of the DCAU one because I remember people comparing it to the way Goku fights... which... enh, there's a good point in there, even if the fight isn't long enough to be a good comparison.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d26N0VgYhg

mmmm yes, much better example. THAT was a brutal slugfest!

[exile001]

I think part of the argument comes down the the page space allotted to Superman fights.

It's actually kind of rare to see him in a fight, right? He often gets demolished for shock value or waylaid before finishing the enemy off quickly in a page or two. more often than not he's up against someone who he can't physically fight.

Why don't we get more stories like Doomsday (Death of Superman)? More issues of Superman fighting in a variety of ways against one opponent until he gets an eventual hard fought win?

I'm not saying transform Superman into a battle comic but I don't see how adding more actual fighting action could hurt.

But then, I'm someone who loves Superman but thinks he urgently needs to be recontextualised for a modern era after decades of comic book stagnation.

[manwhohaseverything]

I think part of the argument comes down the the page space allotted to Superman fights.

It's actually kind of rare to see him in a fight, right? He often gets demolished for shock value or waylaid before finishing the enemy off quickly in a page or two. more often than not he's up against someone who he can't physically fight.

Why don't we get more stories like Doomsday (Death of Superman)? More issues of Superman fighting in a variety of ways against one opponent until he gets an eventual hard fought win?

I'm not saying transform Superman into a battle comic but I don't see how adding more actual fighting action could hurt.

But then, I'm someone who loves Superman but thinks he urgently needs to be recontextualised for a modern era after decades of comic book stagnation.

Action can be anything not necessarily fight.for instance, the chase sequence in civil war .Honestly,mcu is built with action.Now they even added kaijus..Heck! the plane resque in Superman returns and the Heist scene in the dark knight with the joker.Clark kent with glasses doing a jackie chan bit saving someone "accidently" while feigning hurt?yeah!funny but also an action sequence.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/aP0ZjjM4zf...HQaBmlYQ=s1600
a great sequence

[TheRay]

Well since this is the controversial Superman thread. I personally am not crazy about seeing multiple Supermen around the Multiverse.

We know that there are an infinite number of Clarks in the Multiverse, though. I’m not sure if when we saw preCrisis and postCrisis Superman at the same time was because of something else or not, but I think that was a great way of handling this sort of thing that doesn’t destroy uniqueness.

[Frostbite883]

Another controversial take --- I'm glad Snyder had gotten a chance to finish his DCEU Superman story in however way he could and I wouldn't mind him taking a crack at other DC characters in the future albeit without any studio interference involve.