Controversial Superman Opinions

[Kuwagaton]

As someone who suffered through depression, and even today has often bouts of melancholia, I absolutely hate the Regan scene in All-Star.It's just a pathetic attempt to show how Superman is supposedly compassionate and ready to help, without ever addressing the root cause of her depression and suicidal thoughts, nor dealing with the society which creates such suffering in the first place.

I totally get that. And the scene in Mark Waid's Daredevil where Matt, a character prone to depressive bouts, says he feels it coming on "but then I get over it."

[Korath]

I totally get that. And the scene in Mark Waid's Daredevil where Matt, a character prone to depressive bouts, says he feels it coming on "but then I get over it."

I'll have to trust you on that. I've never read Daredevil.

I'm not really a Marvel reader. Don't know why, but I can't connect with their Universe, I'm always feeling like I'm missing a clean entry point

[fan_of_the_messiah]

Hello everyone,

May I ask, do people here have a favourite Lex Luthor origin story/background story from canon? If not, how would people prefer Lex Luthor to be depicted?

[Kuwagaton]

well technically pretty much nothing is canon right now. I like the Luthor Nobody Knows, but that's not the same as me thinking it "works." I put Metropolis Luthor over Smallville Author every time if we're talking about function.

Four way tie with that, unauthorized bio, Lex 2000, and not really having one.

[Korath]

I don't like Lex being from Smallville and knowing Clark from back then. I find it makes the world smaller, and while him being petty is hardly surprising (he is petty indeed!) I find that having some sort of personal tensions with Clark, or Lana or someone else from Smallville doesn't really works in his favor.

I liked the early New 52 Luthor, who supported Clark Kent as Icarus but hunted down Superman, I found that it made a very interesting, cutthroat character, who was taking down corrupt businessmen only to take their place and consolidate his own power base. I'm sure it was more in line with older takes on the character, and it works perfectly.

Edit : I'd also like to see the difference between the Luthors, Waynes and Queens fortunes to be made starker, with Wayne being the Old Money family, Queen the more recent, but still well entrenched on the West Coast, and Lex being the actual builder of the Luthors fortune.

That way, we could have the clear differences between :

• the scion of such an ancient and powerful family that Bruce is mostly blind to the structural reasons which make so many of Gotham's citizens poor
• the son of a wealthy businessman, whom, having been utterly sheltered from realities, was wasting money and not giving a **** to anything until he was stranded on a desert island and actually had some sort of revelation in Oliver
• Lex, who had to build his empire from the ground up, had to internalize the cutthroat nature of this world and succeeded because he was always willing to do whatever it took to rise higher

It'd even reinforce his hatred of Superman, because Supes doesn't need all Luthor has worked so hard to achieve. He's happy being himself, because being himself is enough, and I think it drives Lex mad with jealousy.

[DochaDocha]

I also hate the idea of Luthor's being from Smallville. It's like in this big wide world, the two most exceptional people come from the same tiny town in the middle of the Heartland. I also hate those cutesy stories that implied Clark and Bruce knew each other as kids. Ok, "hate" is too strong a word, but it's bad for building the DCU, and is backwards story-writing.

[Vordan]

Don’t like Bruce and Clark meeting each other as kids or before each has become superheroes, but I kind of like Lex and Clark both being from Smallville, mainly because I like contrasting the two’s viewpoints on their hometowns. For Lex it’s a rural ****hole that he was cunning enough to escape from, a place that held him back. For Clark it’s a place that grounded him, a springboard that let him take his first steps on the road to becoming Supes. I like the Birthright take on them starting out as friends, because it provides a foundation for why Supes might have faith that Lex can be saved. But the Secret Origin take where Lex grew up in Smallville but was always a prick and he & Clark didn’t connect at all feels pointless to me. If there’s no previous connection between the two, then you’re better off making Lex a Metropolis native.

[fan_of_the_messiah]

Hello all

I don't like Lex being from Smallville and knowing Clark from back then.

I’m overjoyed that you agree with me on that. I too hated that Lex Luthor came from Smallville. I think it was done in the Smallville tv programme to show how Clark and Lex were friends at one point and gradually parted ways. However, I do like the idea that Lex was so clever that he is able to “pull the wool” over Clark’s eyes and that Clark initially trusted him, only to realise too late what this man has done to the world.

[fan_of_the_messiah]

I like the Birthright take on them starting out as friends, because it provides a foundation for why Supes might have faith that Lex can be saved. But the Secret Origin take where Lex grew up in Smallville but was always a prick and he & Clark didn’t connect at all feels pointless to me. If there’s no previous connection between the two, then you’re better off making Lex a Metropolis native.

I completely agree. I think to some degree Lex Luthor’s presence shows that Clark is sometimes naïve, and that Clark always looks for the very best in people, even when warned by Jor-El that it was Lex’s type of thinking: “not all life is worth the same”, that ultimately destroyed Krypton.

[Vordan]

I completely agree. I think to some degree Lex Luthor’s presence shows that Clark is sometimes naïve, and that Clark always looks for the very best in people, even when warned by Jor-El that it was Lex’s type of thinking: “not all life is worth the same”, that ultimately destroyed Krypton.

For him to think Lex can be saved in takes like Secret Origin where Lex was a dick from childhood and the two were never close does make him look naive. But if there was a time when Clark and Lex were able to connect, and Lex wasn’t completely contemptuous of other people, such as in Birthright when he tries to make suggestions about how to improve Smallville’s government, then Clark doesn’t look as naive. Personally I prefer to avoid making Supes look like a naive hick, especially if it’s the “modern day” where Supes is supposedly years into his career. That’s why I was cool with Rebirth Superman attacking Lex at the start of Jurgens Action, that Supes has become more jaded and suspicious from years of seeing Lex refuse to change, he’s not going to just buy that Lex has suddenly turned a new leaf. However, I like how Bendis has Supes reach out to Red Cloud, who is a new villain, and make an attempt to win her over before fighting her, that works well I think.

[marhawkman]

I totally get that. And the scene in Mark Waid's Daredevil where Matt, a character prone to depressive bouts, says he feels it coming on "but then I get over it."

It's hugely controversial IRL I once had someone block me on twitter for expressing the idea that you shouldn't start treating depression by taking medication. I sometimes wonder if that guy hates himself for taking anti-depressants. :/ There are people who will tell you it's normal to take happy pills every day.

As part of my job I've had to go to several suicide prevention classes. They had a very different take on depression. Depression is often the result of someone having a skewed perspective on life. One example given was of a person who was suicidally depressed. This individual had seen one of their friends die recently and wanted to "end it all". Yes, losing a friend like that is horrible, and feeling bad about it is fine and normal. But it only defines your life if you let it(yes, this IS me speaking from experience). This example was a person who had several other friends... Who they stopped talking to when the one died. They had become so absorbed in their grief that they'd forgotten about the good things in their life.

Sometimes all people need is to be reminded of the big picture. No matter what your problem is, it's not the entirety of your existence.

To me that Daredevil quote really hits home. I have that problem. If I let myself focus on how I feel depressed I'd never get out of it.

[SiegePerilous02]

It's hugely controversial IRL I once had someone block me on twitter for expressing the idea that you shouldn't start treating depression by taking medication. I sometimes wonder if that guy hates himself for taking anti-depressants. :/ There are people who will tell you it's normal to take happy pills every day.

As part of my job I've had to go to several suicide prevention classes. They had a very different take on depression. Depression is often the result of someone having a skewed perspective on life. One example given was of a person who was suicidally depressed. This individual had seen one of their friends die recently and wanted to "end it all". Yes, losing a friend like that is horrible, and feeling bad about it is fine and normal. But it only defines your life if you let it(yes, this IS me speaking from experience). This example was a person who had several other friends... Who they stopped talking to when the one died. They had become so absorbed in their grief that they'd forgotten about the good things in their life.

Sometimes all people need is to be reminded of the big picture. No matter what your problem is, it's not the entirety of your existence.

To me that Daredevil quote really hits home. I have that problem. If I let myself focus on how I feel depressed I'd never get out of it.

There are different types of depression though, and sometimes medication is needed in some cases. And it's not a magical cure all, not every medication works for everyone, and even then it helps them manage it, not overcome it. I don't think anyone who takes "happy pills" hates themselves.

I actually don't have a problem with the scene in All-Star. It's an isolated and important moment for both Superman and Regan, but it makes no pretense that it will be a magical cure for her depression or that she won't still be dealing with it off and on all her life.

[marhawkman]

There are different types of depression though, and sometimes medication is needed in some cases. And it's not a magical cure all, not every medication works for everyone, and even then it helps them manage it, not overcome it. I don't think anyone who takes "happy pills" hates themselves.

I actually don't have a problem with the scene in All-Star. It's an isolated and important moment for both Superman and Regan, but it makes no pretense that it will be a magical cure for her depression or that she won't still be dealing with it off and on all her life.

Well, there's a specific reason why I think that particular person hates himself for taking anti-depressants, but it'd be complicated to explain. Short version: it's someone I'd met before and talked to on previous occasions.

But yeah, I'm not saying no one needs anti-depressants, more that they're not a panacea. The idea that Superman's natural charm would be enough to make people feel good about themselves is an aspect of the character I like quite a lot.

[Frontier]

Random issues with Bendis' Superman run:

I felt like the formation of the United Planets was kind of rushed.

I don't think the inciting incident that led into it (why is everyone and their mother suddenly trying to kill Jor-El?) was a good lead-in for something that momentous even if everyone puts a lot of stock into what Superman thinks, and it felt like all these intergalactic individuals agreed to it a little too quickly...especially when the Legion shows up and they all go "wait, so this actually works out in the future? Then we may as well do it" which just felt a little too silly.

And Adam Strange asking the question "why has no one thought of this before?" Well...maybe there's a reason for that? At least I would think.

Why did the Legion showing up in Clark and Zod's dreams come off like bad guys or a threat?

Clark doesn't even really get to react to Jor-El getting executed. No last moment with his father or anything. I'm not even sure what Jor-El did that warranted getting executed other then Bendis just needing to get rid of him. They were kind of vague on exactly what Jor-El was privy to with that council.

Lois telling Clark they're family isn't "normal" but bails on her son the moment she feels things are becoming a bit too much for her (and she's been to Apokolips). Just say you want a break Lois.

I'll say it...I don't think Bendis' Jon sounds that out-of-character. Maybe it's the Bendis speak that throws people, but at times I can still see Jon in there. I don't think he'd hate school like he was shown in the flashback and I do think Bendis writes him a little older even before the age-up actually happens. I still think it was too soon and unnecessary to have to make him older like this.

I don't get what was the point of the Crime Syndicate interlude beyond the age-up. Jon having this experience with evil versions of his parents doesn't seem to have impacted him much.

That scene with Copperhead just really irked me. She acted nothing like how she's been depicted under Joshua Williamson's pen in The Flash and then Superman locks her up in a split-second, something Barry hasn't been able to do in his own book, just felt like it undercut Williamson's run a little.

Why did Lois just now feel the need to tell Sam Lane that Clark was Superman? And she apparently didn't tell Clark what she was going to do. I wonder if this and Waller revealing she knows (plus Clark revealing himself to Tiger) was just to foreshadow the outing.

Waller and Tiger came off...kind of dumb? I get the stuff with Leviathan was supposed to be disorienting but it felt like they were really off the ball compared to how they're usually depicted.

[Ascended]

The formation of the UP did end up being a little rushed. Which is odd, since we had months of foreshadowing for it. I'm guessing some plans got adjusted, or maybe it was fallout from Doomsday Clock being delayed....or maybe it's just Bendis, he's done that sort of thing before.

As for Jor-El, he was executed for what he did as Oz, as well as his role in the crimes the Circle committed. I don't believe the galaxy at large knows that Jor was under mind control for the Oz stuff, and probably wouldn't care if they did know. Ganthet gets a free pass because he's a Guardian of Oa; the GLC appear to have some sort of diplomatic immunity in a lot of cases and appear to be an authority unto themselves. Plus, if execution is the sentence for the Cicle's crimes....well, killing a Guardian isn't exactly easy. The other members of the Circle, far as I know, haven't been mentioned so I assume they're either all dead (the Circle operated several decades ago, and they were old men even back then) or retired and off the radar. Jor was right there, and so they made an example of him.

I think, and I could be wrong, that in the years Jor was looking for Jon after the wormhole incident, Jor did some pretty shady stuff trying to find his grandson too.

And I think the point of the earth-3 stuff was to show that even being confronted by evil versions of his parents wouldn't ruin Jon. It's just showing off his fortitude, and perhaps the idea that by this point Jon was no longer defining himself by his parents.

And no, I don't think Jon sounds out of character either. He sounds older, and more confident, but he's clearly the same person. He's just grown up a little.