Controversial Superman Opinions

[SiegePerilous02]

The current SUPERMAN'S PAL JIMMY OLSEN is the best thing to come out of Superman's world in ages.

I've read very little of it, but I liked what I saw. I have an easy time believing this and Rucka's Lois books are the only good things to come out of the Superman office since Morrison left Action Comics

[Adekis]

I've read very little of it, but I liked what I saw. I have an easy time believing this and Rucka's Lois books are the only good things to come out of the Superman office since Morrison left Action Comics

I will not allow "Superman Smashes the Klan" to be slandered like this!

But aside from that, I think I agree with that suggestion. I liked Pak's run but it was weighed down by tie-ins and his messaging seemed a little confused at times. I like lots of Rebirth (like Good Luthor) but not all of it (like Reborn), and I liked "Up in the Sky," and "Superman Smashes the Klan" of course, but that's really about it for Superman stories I've read and truly loved since Morrison's Action run ended.

[SiegePerilous02]

I will not allow "Superman Smashes the Klan" to be slandered like this!

But aside from that, I think I agree with that suggestion. I liked Pak's run but it was weighed down by tie-ins and his messaging seemed a little confused at times. I like lots of Rebirth (like Good Luthor) but not all of it (like Reborn), and I liked "Up in the Sky," and "Superman Smashes the Klan" of course, but that's really about it for Superman stories I've read and truly loved since Morrison's Action run ended.

Oh I mostly meant mainline books, but the Klan is worth a mention too! I also remembered I liked Orlando's Supergirl.

But aside from that, not much else in either New 52 OR Rebirth. Some of Pak's issues that I read were good, but I'm not interested in what I know comes after, and JL and SM/WW leave much to be desired. And Rebirth is just boring, and ultimately lead to some creative decisions I think are bad for the character (a son in canon, cutting ties with the Legion yet again, 5G...). Fingers crossed that some day Hickman or Ewing come over to DC and get the character.

Until the slim chance of that happens, DC in general is losing my interest. The one book I like (Morrison's GL) is getting cut short likely for 5G.

[Superbat]

I've read very little of it, but I liked what I saw. I have an easy time believing this and Rucka's Lois books are the only good things to come out of the Superman office since Morrison left Action Comics

I co-sign this.

Lois Lane & Jimmy Olsen are the best canon Superman comics in ages.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

I will not allow "Superman Smashes the Klan" to be slandered like this!

But aside from that, I think I agree with that suggestion. I liked Pak's run but it was weighed down by tie-ins and his messaging seemed a little confused at times. I like lots of Rebirth (like Good Luthor) but not all of it (like Reborn), and I liked "Up in the Sky," and "Superman Smashes the Klan" of course, but that's really about it for Superman stories I've read and truly loved since Morrison's Action run ended.

I've seen Pak's AC get compared to Higgin's Nightwing more than once for being otherwise good runs that got screwed by too many tie ins to too many crossovers.

[Ascended]

I've seen Pak's AC get compared to Higgin's Nightwing more than once for being otherwise good runs that got screwed by too many tie ins to too many crossovers.

Yeah, that sounds right. Pak's run, when he got to do his thing, was fantastic. But it seemed like he barely had two issues to himself before another stupid event dragged him off course. I don't think Higgins' Nightwing run reached the quality Pak's Action did, but it suffered from the same problems. Without the constant Events, Higgins might've done a damn worthwhile Nightwing.

[SiegePerilous02]

Yeah, that sounds right. Pak's run, when he got to do his thing, was fantastic. But it seemed like he barely had two issues to himself before another stupid event dragged him off course. I don't think Higgins' Nightwing run reached the quality Pak's Action did, but it suffered from the same problems. Without the constant Events, Higgins might've done a damn worthwhile Nightwing.

Yeah the first trade of Pak's was pretty good in isolation, but that was before all the crossovers started hijacking.

(sort of) Speaking of Nightwing, Tim Seeley always wrote a really Superman whenever he used him, and he likes to use Morrison's concepts/toys whenever he can. I wish he'd get a crack at Action or Superman, but it seems the only DC work he does now is He-Man.

[magha_regulus]

I'm so sorry, but I disagree. Jesus Christ was a carpenter and Sree Krishna was a cattle herder, both were taught their trades by their adopted fathers, both adored and practiced their trades, and learnt an important lesson from their adopted fathers: wholesome hard work that serves people is essential in keeping a person humble and honest. True, they both had a higher divine calling but they both practiced their trades when possible as a means to serve society. In keeping with this "divine messenger" allegory for Superman, I'd like to think that Clark's feelings towards being farmer are the same and that he doesn't "look down" upon it. He was raised by Jonathan Kent to understand the importance of honest manual labour work such as farming and how it benefits mankind.

I like to think he chose to become a mild mannered journalist for several practical reasons: (1) it gave him a means to write and communicate with people across the globe about issues plaguing them and provide an opportunity for people to talk to one another as a means to resolve differences and work together, (2) it meant that he could travel to places where conflict and catastrophe were rife as a journalist but then save lives (literally and as a mediator) as Superman. But even as Superman he does put his skills as a farmer, and the lessons taught to him by Jonathan, to use by helping communities e.g.: with irrigating their lands, providing fresh water and building homes for people.

I'd also like to think that for Clark; being a farmer and serving the world, and also raising a family (like how his adopted parents raised him), was his ultimate life ambition. But just like the other divine figures from religious texts, his calling and his greater duty towards humanity kept him from realising this dream. I like to think it leaves him with a little sadness: knowing that he will never have the life that ordinary humans have but to me that's what makes him heroic: he rises above this knowing the salvation he brings to the world as Superman is far more important

I'm another one who thinks the Jesus allegory is harmful. The Moses allegory is much more appropriate for the character to me.

[manwhohaseverything]

I'm another one who thinks the Jesus allegory is harmful. The Moses allegory is much more appropriate for the character to me.

Krishna and boyscout superman is a pretty big stretch. Krishna and moses are of same archetype,but are different . Krishna was a rebel and rulebreaker. If it was the old vigilante strong man, it might work.Rama and boyscout superman works,actually. Rama is just a man, postcrisis guy relishes in being that too. But superman being just a standin intentionally for either any such figure is bad, . Ofcourse religous symbols and allegory can be used to enhance tales naruto, hxh had shinto, buddhist and taoist.. Etc symbolism. Not to mention stories like full-metal-alchemist and evangelion.

[Vordan]

I've seen Pak's AC get compared to Higgin's Nightwing more than once for being otherwise good runs that got screwed by too many tie ins to too many crossovers.

Yeah I can verify that I certainly enjoyed Pak’s run. Stuff like Superman fighting Subterranean or the Ultra-Humanite Smallville horror story were fantastic, but it kept being derailed by crap like Doomed and Truth. Pak handled those crossovers as best he could, and there were some good moments there, but overall he just couldn’t get enough time to tell his stories.

Yeah the first trade of Pak's was pretty good in isolation, but that was before all the crossovers started hijacking.

(sort of) Speaking of Nightwing, Tim Seeley always wrote a really Superman whenever he used him, and he likes to use Morrison's concepts/toys whenever he can. I wish he'd get a crack at Action or Superman, but it seems the only DC work he does now is He-Man.

I’d love to see Seeley take a stab at Superman, he wrote him well in Nightwing and in those Prelude to the Wedding issues.

[DrNewGod]

I'm another one who thinks the Jesus allegory is harmful. The Moses allegory is much more appropriate for the character to me.

IMO, no religious analogy works for Superman. That seems to be a creative retro fit.

Much is made of S&S's Jewish roots, but Moses was a child of slaves, raised by their oppressors, called by God to return and become a leader of his people. That doesn't fit any better than grafting Jesus allegory onto Superman because they both descended from the heavens with great power.

Of course, all of this ignores that Superman was, from the very beginning, a mishmash of several sources, but none of them religious.

[manwhohaseverything]

IMO, no religious analogy works for Superman. That seems to be a creative retro fit.

Much is made of S&S's Jewish roots, but Moses was a child of slaves, raised by their oppressors, called by God to return and become a leader of his people. That doesn't fit any better than grafting Jesus allegory onto Superman because they both descended from the heavens with great power.

Of course, all of this ignores that Superman was, from the very beginning, a mishmash of several sources, but none of them religious.

Superman shares the same archetype as moses. That doesn't mean they are one to one same characters.

[Adekis]

Oh I mostly meant mainline books, but the Klan is worth a mention too! I also remembered I liked Orlando's Supergirl.

Ah, I meant to start reading Supergirl after Superman died in the "Final Days" arc, since she was his choice to succeed him - but, er, I forgot to do it, and I was mostly just picking up whatever comic was most likely to have Luthor in it - which was mostly Action. Oops...

But aside from that, not much else in either New 52 OR Rebirth. Some of Pak's issues that I read were good, but I'm not interested in what I know comes after, and JL and SM/WW leave much to be desired. And Rebirth is just boring, and ultimately lead to some creative decisions I think are bad for the character (a son in canon, cutting ties with the Legion yet again, 5G...). Fingers crossed that some day Hickman or Ewing come over to DC and get the character.

Pak is a weird case. Initially, when everyone was raving over it, I felt like I was the only one going "Guys, this is kind of rough. Superman's just getting his face shoved in the dirt every issue. He's never allowed to just win." It felt like the book was popular more on an aesthetic basis than on plot basis. Pak clearly got Superman, the characterization was great, but he always seemed to want to problematize Superman in really weird ways, like holding him accountable for the fact that Superman against a gang of fascist cultists was an unfair fight, framing Superman almost as a bully who "punches down," which... yeah, I guess he does, when fighting guys like that, but I've never heard anyone suggest it was a problem before, considering they're fascist cultists.

But then something weird happened. Pak's writing stayed the same, I liked it the same amount, but once Superman started turning into Doomsday or later, riding a motorcycle, suddenly everyone else was complaining, and I was stuck going "This isn't really a step down guys, the way Pak's problematizing Superman is entirely consistent with what he was doing before." In the end, I appreciate Pak as a bizarrely unique stage in Superman's history: an attempt to "deconstruct" Superman not on the basis of his powers being scary, but on the basis of his personality, entirely along the lines that being an incredibly badass super-strong action hero who always tries to do the right thing, will not always be enough to win the day. It's unusual, but it's better than any other Superman deconstruction I've ever read, which often resolve with "Superman takes over the world" or some boring, out-of-character crap like that.

I agree entirely with your position that Rebirth did a lot of harm, but I think Clark's characterization was very solid, and overall I enjoyed it more than I didn't - even though I still don't think Jon is a good idea, or that cutting ties with the Legion has ever worked out well.

[DochaDocha]

IMO, no religious analogy works for Superman. That seems to be a creative retro fit.

Much is made of S&S's Jewish roots, but Moses was a child of slaves, raised by their oppressors, called by God to return and become a leader of his people. That doesn't fit any better than grafting Jesus allegory onto Superman because they both descended from the heavens with great power.

Of course, all of this ignores that Superman was, from the very beginning, a mishmash of several sources, but none of them religious.

I don't think it's an accident or coincidence that Moses and Superman both escaped horrific tragedy as infants and started a new life with foster parents. I do think there might've been some retrofitting after the fact, but some of the similarities are intentional.

That said, I don't mind distancing Superman from religious figures, and probably recommend it. I think it works well for a lot of people, but the crucifixion poses and such were a bit over the top IMO. I don't find them harmful to the character's popularity, but I just didn't care for it and think it's a bit cheesy.

[stargazer01]

I don't think it's an accident or coincidence that Moses and Superman both escaped horrific tragedy as infants and started a new life with foster parents. I do think there might've been some retrofitting after the fact, but some of the similarities are intentional.

That said, I don't mind distancing Superman from religious figures, and probably recommend it. I think it works well for a lot of people, but the crucifixion poses and such were a bit over the top IMO. I don't find them harmful to the character's popularity, but I just didn't care for it and think it's a bit cheesy.

I like the religious symbolism in the Superman character, I think it really fits him, but some directors, creators go too far with them or focus too much on it instead of making a better and more entertaining and enjoyable movie.

Donner, Snyder and Singer really went for it, but only Donner delivered the more entertaining film, imo. The other directors were too busy trying to show the importance and reverence to Superman and forgot to make the best film possible for audiences. They made films for themselves not the world.