Controversial Superman Opinions

[Stanlos]

People who know who Superman is but don't know who Flash id, still don't think Superman is much faster than a train, so I don't know why that helps the argument that "Superman has to be the fastest being on earth".

And the Monkey King has nothing to do with this argument.

Hmmmmmmm.

Superman has afterthought more appearances than Cap and Wondy. However, given the writing style and mood of the era I would be surprised if in his early stories there was no mention of fast as light or faster than light.

[Alpha]

Fine, find me an example of that (not that it matters for the larger argument)

[Last Son of Krypton]

I'm a tried and true hater of the Superdad concept, but I agree they could have milked it at least somewhat longer. It didn't surge Superman to new heights or anything, I generally believe Rebirth is supremely overrated when its given that stature, but they could have kept it going. Its one of the reasons why I believe Jon was put into canon specifically for what they're doing now. When they grabbed the idea from Convergence and decided to bring it in, I believe 100% it was with intent from Didio right from the start that they would quickly build to him becoming the next Superman. It explains the age-ups, the more or less glossing over Clark and Lois as new parents, and abandoning the Damian and Jon teamups as fast as they did (at least in ongoing canon capacity). It was, essentially, filler. It was never intended to keep him as a kid as a long term status quo. Didio obviously was shown the door before the end result saw fruition, but these ideas were adopted.

Abandoning ideas fast was DiDio's norm, lol.

While I agree that DC editorial never cared of the Superdad concept, I can't see DiDio or anybody at DC planning so far ahead the current direction. They let Jurgens making **** along the way to get Jon in main continuity, and, from interviews, they looked clueless of what they were doing (beside getting the character in the DCU somehow and pair him with Damian) and not people with a long term plan.

Early on, DiDio was all hyped for Supersons, it was his most anticipated book before the first issue was even written. I recall him talking like it was the greatest idea ever that SM was mirroring BM into being a father, and Jon mirroring Damian.

The impression I got was that Didio and whoever at WB/DC approved Jon were believing him and Supersons were going to appeal to an even younger audience than the new52's as well as having potential for animated kiddie shows.

Eventually, they changed their minds (like DiDio did everytime during his tenure) and/or the concept didn't really delivered as they hoped (a supersons/superfamily cartoon was pitched but rejected by networks) and they moved into something else (SuperJon).

[Sacred Knight]

Fair point, maybe I'm giving that regime too much credit in regards to sticking with anything, good or bad. Guess it depends on how early the basics of the 5G idea were in his head. Don't think he's ever said and beyond that one can only speculate when it actually started. Outside of Bendis' arrival, I think its pretty obvious it was in the works at least by that point.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Fair point, maybe I'm giving that regime too much credit in regards to sticking with anything, good or bad.

If DiDio was still around, I'm sure he would've dropped SuperJon too in the most drastic way after a while.

Guess it depends on how early the basics of the 5G idea were in his head. Don't think he's ever said and beyond that one can only speculate when it actually started. Outside of Bendis' arrival, I think its pretty obvious it was in the works at least by that point.

Afaik, he never said it. But they were looking to shake up things with AC #1000, and there were some plans in the late Summer 2017 (before Bendis' arrival) judging by an early Amazon's solicit of a volume collecting the post AC #1000 issues (still with Jurgens as credited writer). So the idea should've shaped form around that time, with plans for a shake up post AC #1000 and the later (in Nov.) Bendis' arrival.

[Rightoya]

in Flash War, WW I can't even perceive Flash, Superman couldn't follow even 1s with them, that means Flash is 1000 times faster than WW and 100 times faster than Superman. If we follow the logic of Flash with Superman, it means that Superman would have to be 100 times stronger than the strongest hero n2 and 1000 times stronger than the top 10 heroes (WW is in the top 10 in speed) in strength.

What crazy talk even is that, is Wonder Woman then also 1000 times more skilled than Flash, and how should that even work without being able to perceive him? How about just not shitting on other Superheroes to prop up whoever, and finally portraying these top superheroes as proper power equals with different strengths and weaknesses?

[NaVi]

What crazy talk even is that, is Wonder Woman then also 1000 times more skilled than Flash, and how should that even work without being able to perceive him? How about just not shitting on other Superheroes to prop up whoever, and finally portraying these top superheroes as proper power equals with different strengths and weaknesses?

According to many, because the best known power of Flash is speed, there is no problem with it being 100 times faster than the fastest hero that does not belong to the Flash family, 1000 times faster than the rest of the heroes. WW is 1000 times more skilled than Flash, the reason is because it has the same excuse as Flash, WW is known for its ability so it has to be the most skilled of all. But and Superman, he does not stand out in anything, neither strength, nor speed, nor ability, nothing, there is always someone better than him, because with Superman the same logic is not used, because he is not 100 or 1000 times stronger than him rest of the JL. the rest of the heroes always defend them but Superman, even in his own forum, is expected to be a second, surpassed by all.

[Jim Kelly]

It's all kind of ridiculous. All of these heroes, in an effort to top each other, travel beyond the speed of light. If you think about that for just a few seconds (if you have eyes to see), you'll understand that's not even something that could be measured if it could even happen in reality. Some of these guys even travel so fast they travel forward or back in time--so how do you clock that on a stopwatch?

The Atom is probably the fastest, in terms of science, since he can become the size of the smallest sub-atomic particle where the laws of physics are different. If he can become a quantum particle, he could even be at two places in the universe at the same time.

[Superfan90]

He wasn't as fast as flash. He can see flash and he can move while everything is in slow motion, but he was still slower than Flash.

In Whedon cut, he is as fast as Flash, that's why Barry wants to race him to check who is faster.

[Superfan90]

Which movie version we talking?

Just the Snyder Cut clearly had Flash be faster with the time-travel stuff. Theatrical they where much closer, if not the same speed.

Of course the theatrical cut. Snyder cut is not canon.

[manwhohaseverything]

Of course the theatrical cut. Snyder cut is not canon.

There is no such thing as canon...

[Superfan90]

He was not as fast as the Flash in the JL movie. He was much faster than Barry was prepared for and Barry was also a rookie who didn't know how to fight that much, but he was still the fast of the two. Just very unprepared.

That's not what the movie showed. Barry asks for a race to determine who is faster and that's left open.

And then Barry surpassed that speed in the climax. Which is honestly how it should be. Being the fastest is the Flash's entire deal and the one area he surpasses Superman in, it doesn't hurt Superman at all for him to be outranked in that area.

Of course it does. Superman shouldn't bow down to Flash because "it's his deal" no more than bowing down to Hawkman because flying is his deal. Flash is the fastest one in his corner of the universe, Superman isn't designed to be inferior to Flash.

He's definitely the archetype of strength. He's more of a sci-fi Hercules or Sampson. Speed is also very important for him, but not the point where we could call him the archetype of speed over Flash. He, Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel should all be about equal in that regard, and all behind the Flashes.

Sorry but that's bullcrap. He is the archetype for speed and strength because he was the first superhero to do so. By Action Comics 5 he was running at lightspeed, how's it not his deal?

[Superfan90]

It doesn't really matter who came first. Captain Marvel was flying before Superman was but that doesn't stop people from saying Superman is the archetype for the flying brick character, when people think of the speedster archetype where their definable attribute is being fast it's the Flash, not Superman.

No, it definitely matters. You should look up what archetype means. Namor was the first flying brick BTW, not Captain Marvel who was also only jumping from the start. And I don't care about flying brick archetype, I care about the core attributes of Superman, strength, speed and durability.

[Superfan90]

Fine, find me an example of that (not that it matters for the larger argument)

He was running at lightspeed by Action Comics 5.

[Superfan90]

There is no such thing as canon...

Sure thing brother.