Controversial Superman Opinions

[Agent Z]

If a story about Superman fighting police corruption can be done well then it should be written. It should not be written because writers and fans just want the attention for Superman and to make people think he's cool and relevant instead of treating the story with the seriousness it deserves.

[Kuwagaton]

Yeah it bugs me when some real world stuff goes down and I hear about bringing back the Superman from 1938. Please, no. No one from 1938 is equipped to deal with current events. It's only good fortune that African Americans didn't appear in those comics. And yes I know the idea is having an "updated" version but I have to tell you that it means frankly very little.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't know about that... I just read an article where a guy was talking about how a cop almost killed him. Apparently, they were responding to abusive situation where the man was beating on his self proclaimed 'baby mama' and he's upset about brutality and the cops 'violating his rights'....

My first thought reading that was remembering all the conversations people are having about Golden Age Superman throwing wife-beaters through walls... and wondering exactly who's side he'd have been on in that situation. I really REALLY don't want Superman or Batman used as a club to stir people up. I want some nice escapism in my fictional worlds.

If a story about Superman fighting police corruption can be done well then it should be written. It should not be written because writers and fans just want the attention for Superman and to make people think he's cool and relevant instead of treating the story with the seriousness it deserves.

Yeah it bugs me when some real world stuff goes down and I hear about bringing back the Superman from 1938. Please, no. No one from 1938 is equipped to deal with current events. It's only good fortune that African Americans didn't appear in those comics. And yes I know the idea is having an "updated" version but I have to tell you that it means frankly very little.

This is all more than fair and my first statement was pretty insensitive, so I will retract it.

[Ascended]

I don't know about that... I just read an article where a guy was talking about how a cop almost killed him. Apparently, they were responding to abusive situation where the man was beating on his self proclaimed 'baby mama' and he's upset about brutality and the cops 'violating his rights'....

My first thought reading that was remembering all the conversations people are having about Golden Age Superman throwing wife-beaters through walls... and wondering exactly who's side he'd have been on in that situation. I really REALLY don't want Superman or Batman used as a club to stir people up. I want some nice escapism in my fictional worlds.

Well, just to play into the hypothetical....

Assuming the abuser isn't already beaten so bad that he can't move, OG Clark would still hurt and/or scare him. I think in Clark's mind it's a lesson; being powerless in the face of violence. What exactly Clark does here depends on what the cop did to the abuser and what kind of condition the guy is in (can he walk? Is he conscious? Broken bones?), but Clark will make sure the guy knows how helpless he made his baby mama feel and, at a bare minimum, scare the crap out of him. I don't see Clark having any sympathy; he's an abuser, and if a cop got to him before Clark did, well, the d-bag is still an abuser and Superman will make sure the guy learns a lesson he won't forget.

How would OG Clark deal with the cop? I think that would depend on the cop and how badly he hurt the abuser. OG Clark isn't going to take too much issue with a cop who exercises a little excessive force against people who "deserve" it. That is, after all, what Clark himself does. But OG Clark really, really, really, really hates corruption. So did this cop just give the abuser a good "bar fight" style beating, or did he put the abuser in the hospital? Does the cop do this all the time, with everyone? Depending on those answers, Clark might just give the cop a warning about "leaving the excessive force to him" or he might put the cop in the hospital right next to the abuser.

The thing is, OG Clark isn't on the cop's side or the abuser's side. He's on the side of the baby mama. He's got damn little respect for law enforcement and spends plenty of time running from and/or fighting them, so he's not going to be worried about putting a corrupt cop in some pain. And we know how he treats abusers.

Yeah it bugs me when some real world stuff goes down and I hear about bringing back the Superman from 1938. Please, no. No one from 1938 is equipped to deal with current events.

Man, nobody *today* is equipped to deal with current events!

[phantom1592]

Well, just to play into the hypothetical....

Assuming the abuser isn't already beaten so bad that he can't move, OG Clark would still hurt and/or scare him. I think in Clark's mind it's a lesson; being powerless in the face of violence. What exactly Clark does here depends on what the cop did to the abuser and what kind of condition the guy is in (can he walk? Is he conscious? Broken bones?), but Clark will make sure the guy knows how helpless he made his baby mama feel and, at a bare minimum, scare the crap out of him. I don't see Clark having any sympathy; he's an abuser, and if a cop got to him before Clark did, well, the d-bag is still an abuser and Superman will make sure the guy learns a lesson he won't forget.

How would OG Clark deal with the cop? I think that would depend on the cop and how badly he hurt the abuser. OG Clark isn't going to take too much issue with a cop who exercises a little excessive force against people who "deserve" it. That is, after all, what Clark himself does. But OG Clark really, really, really, really hates corruption. So did this cop just give the abuser a good "bar fight" style beating, or did he put the abuser in the hospital? Does the cop do this all the time, with everyone? Depending on those answers, Clark might just give the cop a warning about "leaving the excessive force to him" or he might put the cop in the hospital right next to the abuser.

The thing is, OG Clark isn't on the cop's side or the abuser's side. He's on the side of the baby mama. He's got damn little respect for law enforcement and spends plenty of time running from and/or fighting them, so he's not going to be worried about putting a corrupt cop in some pain. And we know how he treats abusers.

Well, the article was written from the abusers point of view. He says the cops busted in his door and started fighting him, and in the chaos he was shot. It wasn't right and if the cops had been reprimanded than the Floyd situation wouldn't have happened....

The article also says the the 911 operator was on the open line while the woman was screaming for him to stop hitting her, when the cops had to breach the apartment and in trying to subdue him, he was trying to grab the cops gun....

Who's right and who's wrong... I won't say. But man if someone tells me a story like that and my first thought is 'Yeah, Superman would have put you down hard too....' Then its' a messed up world. But yeah... 'this victim sounds just like the kind of guy Superman used to throw through walls... my empathy in situations like this really gets strained.

[manwhohaseverything]

Well, the article was written from the abusers point of view. He says the cops busted in his door and started fighting him, and in the chaos he was shot. It wasn't right and if the cops had been reprimanded than the Floyd situation wouldn't have happened....

The article also says the the 911 operator was on the open line while the woman was screaming for him to stop hitting her, when the cops had to breach the apartment and in trying to subdue him, he was trying to grab the cops gun....

Who's right and who's wrong... I won't say. But man if someone tells me a story like that and my first thought is 'Yeah, Superman would have put you down hard too....' Then its' a messed up world. But yeah... 'this victim sounds just like the kind of guy Superman used to throw through walls... my empathy in situations like this really gets strained.

Why does Superman in particular putting the guy down makes this feel bad?They are vigilantes. Not saints. As said, superman is human so he does goof up. He is powerful so his goof ups can be big, yet with a limit. If superman feels the guy is in the right and baby mama is wrong. He will see to it that he gets justice. But, if he sees her beating her up using his physical strength advantage. Well, the guy is going into a wall. Especially, if he resists to stop the violence or tries to attack superman . Btw, the wife beater in action comics #1 had a knife.

[Adekis]

For what a different perspective is worth:

- the context of killing in Exile is as a bloodsport, which is clearly what he'd refuse. Superman himself doesn't take a harder stance against killing than most people. Stern, who wrote a chunk of Exile, has him mention in a discussion right before Doomsday that he essentially believes the decision to kill is based on reasoning and the options on the table. The actual "no kill declaration" would be pre Crisis, where he absolutely will not kill and in the most notable (hypothetical) example removes his own powers permanently for what he does in Whatever Happened.

I appreciate your input!

I guess I just can't help but read that issue in the context of fan politics. Of course Superman would be against blood sports, I never intended to imply otherwise, but making such a big show out of Superman largely rejecting his own actions in a previous arc strikes me more as an attempt to re-align post-Crisis Superman with pre-Crisis morals, and it makes me difficult to take his statement at face value within the story.

Especially as the change from a "No Kill Rule" to a more general "No Killing If I Can Help It Tendency" is one of the few changes I really prefer post-Crisis to pre-Crisis, even a performative emphasis on the pre-Crisis version often rubs me the wrong way... especially as I would characterize the entire No Kill Rule as performative in the first place, considering how often he went out of his way to find loopholes with creatures who "aren't really alive," or various other tricks. He loudly announces that he doesn't kill, and then he does so anyway.

I don't think that Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow is necessarily a good example, because while it is the one time his No Kill Rule is taken to its logical conclusion, it's definitely also only possible because it was already set-up as The Last Superman Story, right? He killed beings before, or engineered their deaths, enough times to be worth mentioning.

- not being able to leave Krypton is another contrast established. Pre Crisis Jor El is called the greatest scientist on the planet, but then he's treated like a sidewalk prophet without research when push came to shove. They could have had a failsafe, but for reasons like Wegthor's tragedy just didn't. In the update Krypton's society is formed by hundreds of years of xenophobic strife and the clone wars, and the result is that they can't just leave even if they believe him. They've been genetically modified to be landlocked and Jor El's only chance is figuring out how to bypass the lock for his son. So it's not that they die when they leave Krypton just because.

I mean I know all that, I just think the nature of the landlock is contrived and stupid. It's not literally for no reason in universe, but it is literally true that the real reason is because the writers thought they were being cleverer than I think they really were.

- yeah, post crisis Mongul sucks and only looks threatening because Superman isn't at full power. I can only guess that between Darkseid becoming a Superman villain and whoever else they came up with he was found redundant.

Yeah, I agree with all of that 100%.

This is a tangential aside, but I often think super-hero characters with any kind of conceptual depth are often at their purest form of concept, if not usually most complex execution, in their initial form, before later writers change them into something more generic. That's certainly the case with Darkseid and Mongul in my book. Original Darkseid never throws a punch, but relies on underlings, cruel devices, and treachery to do his violence for them. He even tricks Orion (and the audience, via a deceptive front cover) into thinking he's going to fight him, but instead dives out of the way to hit Orion with a hail of bullets from a firing squad in wait. By contrast, Mongul isn't nearly so much of a schemer, he's an intelligent bruiser whose original stated purpose was to give the pre-Crisis Superman an opponent he could slug it out with, when most of his foes were purely mental threats with one or more reasons why Superman's powers just wouldn't work well on them. To me, the reduction of Superman and Mongul's powers hurt this basic concept, but so does Darkseid's unwarranted evolution into a brawler himself, which I just don't really think works for that original Kirby character, as much as DC has sunk more time and effort into making us think that Darkseid should be able to fight Superman to a standstill.

- that L.e.g.i.o.n. annual comes over a year later, so that ship Dox gave him wouldn't have been available.

Wait, really? *frantic googling noises*

Well I'll be. You're right! Nuts. How'd I mess that up?

Superman doesn't get that ship from Dox iirc though. I wish he'd used it more in future stories - I just think spaceships are neat!

... I don't think a ten issue arc is better than ten relatively self contained stories that aim for greater variety and amusement. I don't think Superman should be so defined by "important" or acclaimed stories, so I can see Exile also in a way being overrated.

I've always kind of thought that too. I've got favorite arcs, but to me the best way to really understand the Man of Tomorrow isn't to read everything on the Best Of list, but to also read a bunch of things that fall through the cracks month-to-month. Most Superman stories aren't on a Best Of list after all - but most Superman stories are pretty good overall.

And I think there's one specific thing that most "Best Of" stories aren't as good at, which is "Settle in for some good times with your Ol' Pal, Superman!" Which I think they're almost set aside from by loftier aspirations, sometimes. Ah well.

- I know I've said this before, sorry, but "kinda stiff" should be accepted for the character IMO. He's the sensational find of 1938, too much twisting and turning for an update takes him away from what he's been.

Hm, it's maybe that's what I meant?

Let's go back to that L.E.G.I.O.N. '90 Annual # 1. In the "Part 1" of that story, from Adventures of Superman Annual # 2, Superman seems kind of self-righteous, he's too eager to jump to conclusions, takes too long to listen to the L.E.G.I.O.N. characters, and makes no secret of not wanting them around, or so it seemed to me. There's one cool moment that focuses on Lar Gand and Superman teaming up, I guess. By contrast, in the L.E.G.I.O.N. Annual, Superman does come across as a little stiff, but I also feel like he's got more emotional maturity than anyone else in that issue. The Man of Steel's presence is treated with a kind of respect I'm sort of surprised to say I didn't see in his own title. The question of whether you agree with him or with Dox is still an open one, but he doesn't come across as being so self-righteous - more like he's got moral clarity on his own code of ethics.

In other words, I think the post-Crisis Superman got a little too turned around in the update, and got a little too far from "the sensational find of 1938", haha!

[Will Evans]

Dozens seems like too many to me, but I do like the idea of a jokey-arc where Lois has to defeat Clark's League of Seven Exes in order to date him, Scott Pilgrim Style.



Yeah, I said Brainiac Five. Have you seen the Legion cartoon? So much chemistry between them. Anyway!

Here's a controversial opinion... I think Exile is kind of stupid. The whole arc is peppered with things I think are stupid, salvaged mostly by good-to-great artwork. Superman developing a schizophrenic break and isolating himself in deep space, is stupid. Though I think it's worth noting that Superman got hit by a mind-blast from Brainiac that I'm pretty sure is what actually caused his repressed sense of guilt to actually manifest in Gangbuster, but half the time I like what he does as Gangbuster more than what he does as Superman in the lead-up to Exile, and either way I digress. Superman's "triumphant" declaration that he doesn't kill also falls very flat to me - especially since I know that he'll kill Henshaw, Doomsday, another Zod, etc., in the future. The revelation that nobody ever left Krypton before Kal because until him, nobody could leave without dying instantly, is stupid. The decision to change WarWorld from the most powerful weapon in the galaxy into a series of gladiatorial games, is stupid, and also Mongul is less threatening and impressive post-Crisis, especially physically. And just, Superman in general seems kind of stiff and flat, especially morally. This is actually a complaint I have about a lot of the post-Crisis era though, up until Louise Simonson joins the crew. It's not unique to this story.

There's things I really like about Exile. I like the individual planets that Superman lands on and the concept of Superman traveling in space - but I don't think the reasoning for his being there is good, the image of the air pipeline isn't great, and from an in-universe perspective, I don't know why he didn't use that spaceship he picked up in L.E.G.I.O.N. '90 Annual # 1. I like the flashbacks to Krypton - visually at least. I think the Cleric is kind of neat. Mongul being there is good, even though I think he's kind of misused. The art is overall phenomenal. The "Hostile Takeover" backup about Luthor and LexCorp is awesome, and similarly, Exile's brief windows into worldbuilding Metropolis despite Superman's absence are all pretty well done. I just don't think it really salvages the arc overall. I don't really understand why it's so popular.

I forget Superman has been with both Big Barda (mind control) and Amazing Grace (amnesia and seduction) of the Female Furies.

[Adekis]

Since neither of the relationships was really "in good faith", I don't consider either Grace or Barda to be "exes" the way that Luma Lynnai or Maxima is, but I actually think his relationship with Amazing Grace is kind of interesting? I wanted Zack Snyder's "Knightmare Superman" to be a version of Brutaal under the influence of Amazing Grace, but I don't think he was ever meant to be; I suspect that Snyder's too mainstream of a DC fan for either of those characters, they're too obscure for him.

[manwhohaseverything]

If i remember correctly as son of darkseid superman was with lashina in dcau.

[Adekis]

Interesting. Lashina was always my favorite Fury, after Barda, because of her stint feigning amnesia in Suicide Squad. Because of that, I can imagine that she might actually be a more subversive mate for Superman than many other choices. She might make him into more of a rebel than Daddy Darkseid had intended!

[Ascended]

Well, the article was written from the abusers point of view. He says the cops busted in his door and started fighting him, and in the chaos he was shot. It wasn't right and if the cops had been reprimanded than the Floyd situation wouldn't have happened....

I've seen and heard far too many arguments from abusers, and it's never their fault. It's always someone else's. At least in their minds.

But I wasn't really commenting on the article or situation itself so much as how I imagine Golden Age Superman may have handled it, had he run into the middle of the altercation. Just a creative exercise, yknow?

The article also says the the 911 operator was on the open line while the woman was screaming for him to stop hitting her, when the cops had to breach the apartment and in trying to subdue him, he was trying to grab the cops gun....

If the 911 operator heard the calls for help, then that pretty much settles it in my mind, and if there are bruises (or other proof of abuse) then it completely settles it. I got zero sympathy or understanding for abusers.

Who's right and who's wrong... I won't say. But man if someone tells me a story like that and my first thought is 'Yeah, Superman would have put you down hard too....' Then its' a messed up world. But yeah... 'this victim sounds just like the kind of guy Superman used to throw through walls... my empathy in situations like this really gets strained.

It is indeed a messed up world.

[Will Evans]

Did he get with Lori Lemaris in college? Or did her physiology prevent that?

Clark’s college years are rarely touched on. What comics should I read that showcased them?

[SiegePerilous02]

Did he get with Lori Lemaris in college? Or did her physiology prevent that?

Clark’s college years are rarely touched on. What comics should I read that showcased them?

When I saw the Lighthouse, the questions on human-mermaid...relations is pretty graphically answered.

And my mind immediately went to Clark and Lori during the scene in question lol.

[witchboy]

I think that Superman and Barda were interrupted before they actually had sex?