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  1. #2221
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    It 100% was. The sales were soft so DC hit the reset button hard. Zod went back to being a cackling 1-D Terrance Stamp bad guy, New Krypton blew up, etc. Don’t know why they reset everything considering not even a year later they rebooted with New 52.
    Aren't they trying for it again, now? Jurgens started the plot. Bendis hasn't let it go and zod is trying to bring back the Kandorians.

  2. #2222
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    You're both kind of missing the point - This is the controversial opinion thread, not the debate thread, I already listed my reasons back when the kid was new, we all did. I don't want to get dragged into it again, I just wanted to say after all this time and reading almost nothing but love for the superdad and son concept and people whining about the kid getting aged up, that I still hate the idea. People don't have to list reasons why they love the brat and concept anymore, why should I just because I still don't like it? Question rubbed me the wrong way, so I responded with a question because I knew it would rub others the same way.

    Not what Superman would do, but I was tired and irritated. Basically if I were to listen to my better nature I would probably say something like, " Why do I even need to answer that," but I was irritated so...
    ok but I didn't read your reasons before. I see people having discussions all the time on other Controversial threads, but ok, if you are tired of it.

  3. #2223
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    I think Warren Ellis would deliver the most epic, most iconic Superman run ever.
    Maybe - but his JLA: New Maps of Hell was really weak, so I could see it go either way.

  4. #2224
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Ellis would be risky, but IMO it would be a risk worth taking.

  5. #2225
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Well, i didn't question your opinion. I am perfectly fine with people wishing jon not to exist. I didn't reply to you when you first put your opinion post. Only when you and @stargazer01 started replying to each other. So, i thought it had Already become a convo. Even, then i just commented on it being bad argument. Sorry, if i misjudged.
    It's okay, internet doesn't convey mood or intent that well, and sometimes my filter against being a tiny bit of an ass gets busted. All is cool.

  6. #2226
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    ok but I didn't read your reasons before. I see people having discussions all the time on other Controversial threads, but ok, if you are tired of it.
    No problem, was just in a mood and took it kinda wrong. Just don't want to debate on that again. I don't think it should be in continuity and I never will.

  7. #2227
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    FWIW I'm with you. As I think with anyone whos been a fan of something for a long time, my views have changed as a Superman fan over my three decades as a mega fan, but at this point probably none so much as my feelings about a child. Around the late 90s, before I took a sabbatical from comics (in my pure post-Crisis, pro-marriage form), I had wanted it to happen. Felt it would be a natural progression to keep things from getting stale. But as time went on and they didn't do it, indeed things did get stale to the point I eventually reformed my opinion and preferred them unmarried as it was (along with a lot of other things changing like growing to like and prefer pre-Crisis norms instead). So naturally no longer being a fan of the marriage obviously the baby angle was no longer a preference either just by obvious association, but I never outright hated it like I do now. But fast forward to now and how they have gone about doing it, Jon is such a poor character and a hamfisted fit in my eyes that its irreparably damaged the entire concept in my head altogether, even if the opportunity ever came about to do it again and actually do it well with care, proper build-up, and proper focus on the main characters.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 01-28-2020 at 09:22 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  8. #2228
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Ellis would be risky, but IMO it would be a risk worth taking.
    Agreed. It might be awful, but when Ellis hits things right......you don't get any better.

    For myself, I'd like to see Al Ewing take a shot. Ewing takes a book and I think "Really? This? How is this gonna be any good?" and then I read it, and it's almost always one of the best things on the stands. Doesn't matter what it is; a adjunct team of Avengers spun out of an overly large Event and made up of secondary characters, a Loki story about him trying to be a good guy.....you can give Ewing a stupid premise, something doomed to fail before issue 6, and he'll turn it into gold. Every single f**king time!
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  9. #2229
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    I don't think they will will ever do a baby character and naturally build his growth. This is the closest anyone's going to get. But, it might happen in outside media though. But in comics, i don't think so.

    Ok, i don't know if i would call this a controversial opinion or my personal head canon or a fanfic of sort. there should be three supermen in main universe, to complete the different sides. I don't care for names, it can be clark, harold and carter . The three should signify the major transformation the character went through. Three should be able to produce vastly different points of views.Call it, reign of supermen or supermen of three worlds. They come together and get on each others bad side as they battle the main villain lex who is the real-superman from reign of the superman . He would be a the most powerful telepath and technopath, ever. The world will be a dystopia.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 01-28-2020 at 09:52 AM.

  10. #2230
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Agreed. It might be awful, but when Ellis hits things right......you don't get any better.

    For myself, I'd like to see Al Ewing take a shot. Ewing takes a book and I think "Really? This? How is this gonna be any good?" and then I read it, and it's almost always one of the best things on the stands. Doesn't matter what it is; a adjunct team of Avengers spun out of an overly large Event and made up of secondary characters, a Loki story about him trying to be a good guy.....you can give Ewing a stupid premise, something doomed to fail before issue 6, and he'll turn it into gold. Every single f**king time!
    Ewing and Hickman are the two Marvel writers I’m dying to see do some Superman. Hickman ended his Avengers epic by essentially validating Sun God/Superman’s “Everything Lives” mindset, and his talent at mixing the epic with the personal is up there with Morrison. His dialogue feels off at times but God knows Bendis’ does at times as well and I still enjoy Bendis’ stuff for the most part. Ewing is just flat out a fan of the Superman archetype as seen with his Blue Marvel work. He’s doing great with my favorite Marvel (and second favorite overall character in comics) Hulk, I’d love to see him take on Supes.

  11. #2231
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    I don't know how controversial this is, but, in retrospect, I think Morrison should have done his Action Comics run in the self contained, one-off style of All Star Superman.

    To be clear, Morrison's Action Comics run is very easily in my top 5 if not 3 Superman stories, and it's my second favorite Superman origin in any medium. But I think--again, in hindsight-- I would've liked it to be expressed a little differently. And Morrison himself agrees. In one of his exit interviews regarding his run on Action Comics he said that he'd have liked to do them a bit more self-contained and one-off if he could do it again.

    And now looking at his work on Klaus (who is, nearly by Morrison's own admission, his Superman) I can't help but feel a sharp jab of what-could-have-been. I don't know if it would've 'saved' the New 52 Superman or dispelled all of the nonsense marketing around him at the time, but I do feel like it would've been a real treat to get 19 compete Superman out of Morrison before he closed the book on the character. Might've even helped to flesh the his world out a bit more than the basically nothing it ended up being by the timed he died.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  12. #2232
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I don't know how controversial this is, but, in retrospect, I think Morrison should have done his Action Comics run in the self contained, one-off style of All Star Superman.

    To be clear, Morrison's Action Comics run is very easily in my top 5 if not 3 Superman stories, and it's my second favorite Superman origin in any medium. But I think--again, in hindsight-- I would've liked it to be expressed a little differently. And Morrison himself agrees. In one of his exit interviews regarding his run on Action Comics he said that he'd have liked to do them a bit more self-contained and one-off if he could do it again.

    And now looking at his work on Klaus (who is, nearly by Morrison's own admission, his Superman) I can't help but feel a sharp jab of what-could-have-been. I don't know if it would've 'saved' the New 52 Superman or dispelled all of the nonsense marketing around him at the time, but I do feel like it would've been a real treat to get 19 compete Superman out of Morrison before he closed the book on the character. Might've even helped to flesh the his world out a bit more than the basically nothing it ended up being by the timed he died.
    It should’ve been Superman Earth One frankly. Oh well, I’ll take the lifeline Johns tossed in DDC and pretend that Earth 52 Superman is out there somewhere.

    But really more than the actual storyline itself which I love, what I liked most about his run was the attempt to unify Superman in a way that we saw Morrison do with Batman. Giving us a Superman who has the Golden Age swagger, bravado, and commitment to looking out for the oppressed, the Silver Age cosmic explorer, and the Bronze Age philosopher was a praiseworthy attempt at unifying Superman who honestly feels like he’s been shattered into various unreconcilable takes. If someone could also bring in the Byrne genuine interest in journalism and desire for Lois to love him as himself and not as Superman the “icon”, the Johns/Busiek oddball who does super feats for charity and struggles with loneliness, maybe even some of the Tomasi/Bendis/Jurgens father and family man? That would be amazing and give us a really fleshed out character arc for Superman, or at least a Superman who is in his 30s-40s.

    The current Superman who is kind of a continuation of the Johns/Busiek Superman feels like an attempt to keep all the “continuity” of previous eras, but it’s missing the emotional arc that Morrison’s Superman had. Morrison Superman starts out as cocky and a bit of a dick (but only to even bigger jerks), mellows out after fighting Brainiac, and eventually becomes more like “classic” Superman while never losing that commitment to protecting the little people.

  13. #2233
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    It should’ve been Superman Earth One frankly.
    This would've been pretty great. I'd have taken Morrison doing what would've essentially 3 Superman movies in comic. I'd even partner him with Earth One's original artist Shane Davis, and then in book 3 I'd have loved to see Morrison's actual Wonder Woman Earth One partner, Yanick Paquette, come in to render the more surreal looking final arc/book.

    Indecently this change would've had wider ramifications. Man of Steel may not have turned out to be the poor copy of an already poor story. Possibly could've gotten t shirt and jeans Superman stopping The Collector as our Superman movie.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  14. #2234
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    I'm always surprised at the dogged loyalty I see some have to pre-Crisis Superman, considering that--in my opinion--most of his stories aren't particularly fun to read. They were often either pedestrian to the point of boredom, or just too outlandish to the point where the character can't be taken seriously at all. But I would say that about most Silver Age comics I've read, not just Superman. At that point in comics history, the books typically weren't written in a compelling fashion, and they certainly don't stand the test of time. This isn't surprising, though, considering they were written primarily for children from decades and decades and decades and decades and decades and decades ago, and often had to adhere to ridiculous codes.

  15. #2235
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    I'm always surprised at the dogged loyalty I see some have to pre-Crisis Superman, considering that--in my opinion--most of his stories aren't particularly fun to read. They were often either pedestrian to the point of boredom, or just too outlandish to the point where the character can't be taken seriously at all. But I would say that about most Silver Age comics I've read, not just Superman. At that point in comics history, the books typically weren't written in a compelling fashion, and they certainly don't stand the test of time. This isn't surprising, though, considering they were written primarily for children from decades and decades and decades and decades and decades and decades ago, and often had to adhere to ridiculous codes.
    I think it's more preferring the content of the lore and some of the themes that can be explored from it that makes the pre-Crisis setup more compelling for, not so much the writing styles of the comics themselves. Like Bronze Age Superman still had that lore, and we got some great stories from Alan Moore out of it, which have (IMO) aged better than a lot of their contemporaries or even some of the stuff that came after. You also have Gerber in the same period, and Morrison with All-Star (which is pure Silver Age pastiche).

    So I think, for me at least, the best Superman stories are the ones that fuse the pre-Crisis lore with more modern sensibilities. The early post-Crisis comics are perhaps a little easier to read than what came before, but they've still aged almost as badly and just made the whole setting less compelling in some ways while doing it

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