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  1. #2596
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    I took the implication to be that the post-worm hole Jor El had been on a rampage of sorts to get Jon back leading to his being a criminal. He was operating openly and without any issue prior to that point. The crystal queen was actually the one using Rogal Zaar and was behind the destruction of Krypton. She was killed in Supergirl. The Guardian that was part of it was already dead as well. Zor El was dead. Starfire's father's dead as well. I think that's pretty much it for the Circle.

    I've said this several times, but Bendis' run has been a lot of good first draft stories that one or two passes to tighten the ploting up and tweaking the characters actions just a little would make if fit and flow so much better. Lois' story in particular could have worked out so much better.

  2. #2597
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I took the implication to be that the post-worm hole Jor El had been on a rampage of sorts to get Jon back leading to his being a criminal. He was operating openly and without any issue prior to that point. The crystal queen was actually the one using Rogal Zaar and was behind the destruction of Krypton. She was killed in Supergirl. The Guardian that was part of it was already dead as well. Zor El was dead. Starfire's father's dead as well. I think that's pretty much it for the Circle.

    I've said this several times, but Bendis' run has been a lot of good first draft stories that one or two passes to tighten the ploting up and tweaking the characters actions just a little would make if fit and flow so much better. Lois' story in particular could have worked out so much better.
    Isn't Starfire's dad the Tamaran rep?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    And I think the point of the earth-3 stuff was to show that even being confronted by evil versions of his parents wouldn't ruin Jon. It's just showing off his fortitude, and perhaps the idea that by this point Jon was no longer defining himself by his parents.
    Maybe. Just didn't feel very clear.
    And no, I don't think Jon sounds out of character either. He sounds older, and more confident, but he's clearly the same person. He's just grown up a little.
    He definitely sounds better then Bendis' Damian.

  3. #2598
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I took the implication to be that the post-worm hole Jor El had been on a rampage of sorts to get Jon back leading to his being a criminal. He was operating openly and without any issue prior to that point. The crystal queen was actually the one using Rogal Zaar and was behind the destruction of Krypton. She was killed in Supergirl. The Guardian that was part of it was already dead as well. Zor El was dead. Starfire's father's dead as well. I think that's pretty much it for the Circle.
    This all must have been in Supergirl, yes? I didn't know most of that.

    I've said this several times, but Bendis' run has been a lot of good first draft stories that one or two passes to tighten the ploting up and tweaking the characters actions just a little would make if fit and flow so much better. Lois' story in particular could have worked out so much better.
    Dude, you are so right! There are several instances where the choices are right and make sense, but how we get there is so rocky it comes off really wrong. Jor taking Jon into space being a big example. I think it makes sense that this thing happened. I can see Clark and Lois allowing this, after a careful risk assessment and a lot of follow up questions about the whole Oz thing. But what Bendis gave us on the page makes it look so damn awful, I can't blame the posters who think it was out of character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Isn't Starfire's dad the Tamaran rep?
    In today's UP, I think so unless he really is dead (he was a continuity or two ago, I think). But 40-ish years ago? The Tamaranean from the Circle looked on the older side. Unless Tamaraneans have a longer lifespan than I realize, I think that must've been Starfire's grandfather.

    Maybe. Just didn't feel very clear.
    No, that whole sequence didn't get nearly enough room to breath. Who ever thought we'd be wanting Bendis to slow down and enjoy the character moments? But this is something that has cropped up through his whole run, like Yoda says.

    He definitely sounds better then Bendis' Damian.
    Dude, Bendis' Damian is the absolute worst. It is almost a physical pain to read.
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  4. #2599
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    As someone who suffered through depression, and even today has often bouts of melancholia, I absolutely hate the Regan scene in All-Star.It's just a pathetic attempt to show how Superman is supposedly compassionate and ready to help, without ever addressing the root cause of her depression and suicidal thoughts, nor dealing with the society which creates such suffering in the first place.

    But All-Star Superman is an all-around abomination to me. It's the one comics I read that I wish I had never even knew existed. It was physically painful to read, depicted the most loathsome and disgusting Superman ever and cemented my opinion of the mainstream Superman : an hypocritical Conservative who hoards knowledge, doesn't try to change the world and his just chum with the powerful peoples of the Western World.

    yeah. I hate All-Star Superman.
    I've dealt with it too and I think it worked more for me because it was the idea that, yes, people do actually care about you. Not all depression stems from the same problems. A lot of mine came from my family splitting up then having to bury the parent I was closest to because they fell ill and passed away a week before my birthday (funeral was three days before it, so you'd imagine it was a very hard time for a child). Until that point in my life, that parent was my best-- and for most of my life-- only friend. One of my cousins took the time to check in on me now and then even though they didn't have to and it meant the world. We were never particularly close beforehand, but of the hundreds who told me they were sorry for my loss, they were the one to actually follow up and show they cared when they didn't have to. To this day, it still means a lot and I respect them immensely.

    That's what I got from that scene. The most important person in the world stopped what they were doing to be decent to someone seemingly insignificant because, ultimately, everyone matters. It's an affirmation that no matter how hopeless it may seem, nobody has to go it alone. And Clark didn't need superpowers to do it. Ultimately, anyone can be Superman because all it takes is to give a damn and do something when you see someone else suffering. He didn't cure her depression and the problem isn't gone, but he did remind her that people care about her and want to help. Sometimes that matters, sometimes it doesn't, but in a story about a dying man using his finite time to get his affairs in order, it does say a lot when he puts some aside to help a random stranger through a hard time when he himself is facing an existential crisis all his own.

    During that scene, Clark seems to know her name and that she was distraught over her therapist not arriving. He overhears some of the chatter around the scene, so we can infer she was speaking (if only in a whisper) that they didn't care to show up that day. She assumed that she was abandoned by someone she was seeking help from. Abandonment put her on that ledge. For that particular case, yes, I think Superman of all people stopping to embrace and reassure her that it was not intentional and that yes, she mattered to a great many people (clearly including him) would help bring her out from that ledge. Not solve her problems, but certainly return to her life and therapy to continue seeking help.

    It was a cry for help and it was answered.

    There's some forms of depression, however, where it can come off entirely as patronizing. It's a hard thing to adequately portray because of how it manifests differently based on the person in question and circumstances of its development.

    That said, I really can't agree with your take on All-Star. Obviously, you're welcome to it, but hot damn.
    Last edited by Robanker; 02-18-2020 at 09:39 PM.

  5. #2600
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    This all must have been in Supergirl, yes? I didn't know most of that.
    Yeah. Like the entirety of the conspiracy plot was explained over in Supergirl. The Guardian left a will outlining it and Kara took down the last remaining member.



    Dude, you are so right! There are several instances where the choices are right and make sense, but how we get there is so rocky it comes off really wrong. Jor taking Jon into space being a big example. I think it makes sense that this thing happened. I can see Clark and Lois allowing this, after a careful risk assessment and a lot of follow up questions about the whole Oz thing. But what Bendis gave us on the page makes it look so damn awful, I can't blame the posters who think it was out of character.
    That's a big one. Lois leaving them is another. Jon's time in space. The UP. It's all there, it just needs better execution and to be given more time to develop. Like I can understand Lois Lane, bad ass, coming to the realization that Jon is fine out there with Jor El. But not after an afternoon. And her wanting to have her own space, particularly after the Rebirth run, completely doable. If you bothered to set it up and explain it. Same with Jon's time in space. you're giving yourself 7 years to work with and you spend most of it sticking him in a mountain and not explaininf things. It's all solid ideas, but it needed someone to make him take another pass at it and let the characters organically get to the end point he wants.

    In today's UP, I think so unless he really is dead (he was a continuity or two ago, I think). But 40-ish years ago? The Tamaranean from the Circle looked on the older side. Unless Tamaraneans have a longer lifespan than I realize, I think that must've been Starfire's grandfather.
    I definitely could be mistaken on that guys ID. Either way, I think the one involved in the Circle is said to be dead.

  6. #2601
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Dude, you are so right! There are several instances where the choices are right and make sense, but how we get there is so rocky it comes off really wrong. Jor taking Jon into space being a big example. I think it makes sense that this thing happened. I can see Clark and Lois allowing this, after a careful risk assessment and a lot of follow up questions about the whole Oz thing. But what Bendis gave us on the page makes it look so damn awful, I can't blame the posters who think it was out of character.
    Even if I could conceive that maybe Clark and Lois would agree to it after some long deliberatation and considering (and pretending the Mr. Oz stuff didn't happen), it should definitely not have happened as quickly as it did.

    Jon sneaking out is more believable then them just agreeing to it like they did.
    In today's UP, I think so unless he really is dead (he was a continuity or two ago, I think). But 40-ish years ago? The Tamaranean from the Circle looked on the older side. Unless Tamaraneans have a longer lifespan than I realize, I think that must've been Starfire's grandfather.
    I think Wolfman established Myand'r's grandfather had a different name, but maybe in this new age of continuity they both had the same name...
    Dude, Bendis' Damian is the absolute worst. It is almost a physical pain to read.
    See, I knew from the very beginning that Bendis would have a hard time grasping a character like Damian, especially from a dialogue standpoint, but I was not prepared for how off the mark it ended up being.

  7. #2602
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    As someone who suffered through depression, and even today has often bouts of melancholia, I absolutely hate the Regan scene in All-Star.It's just a pathetic attempt to show how Superman is supposedly compassionate and ready to help, without ever addressing the root cause of her depression and suicidal thoughts, nor dealing with the society which creates such suffering in the first place.

    But All-Star Superman is an all-around abomination to me. It's the one comics I read that I wish I had never even knew existed. It was physically painful to read, depicted the most loathsome and disgusting Superman ever and cemented my opinion of the mainstream Superman : an hypocritical Conservative who hoards knowledge, doesn't try to change the world and his just chum with the powerful peoples of the Western World.

    yeah. I hate All-Star Superman.
    I'm fine with the Regan scene. Could they have dedicated one entire issue on what caused her depression? I guess, but since A-SS is commercial art, I can understand why they didn't go there. Overall, I'm okay with the message that if Superman can help someone who needs his help, he does it. And not that it really gives me more authority to speak on the matter, but I was diagnosed with depression about 12 years ago, FWIW.

    As for the idea that Superman hoards knowledge, it's kind of a necessary evil. It's great to show how vast Superman's knowledge and reach are, but if you set the narrative so that he shares it with all of humanity then at some point Superman's world is going to be so far displaced from ours. It's a feeling I had after watching Black Panther. Okay, so you get Vibranium, and you get Vibranium, and you get Vibranium... how is the MCU going to look like now that everyone on Earth gets to share Vibranium and all the miracles it creates? MCU started to go there with Iron Man and his nanotech suit, but they obviously had a plan for Iron Man that would make the stor self-limiting. The more your characters display the potential to end certain world problems, you might have inched too far into fantasy, or at least into a recognizable world within which these stories are supposed to take place.

  8. #2603
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Yeah! I don't think anyone can be superman. Bibbo going out to help a puppy in need is treated as cutesy scene or even funny one. He isn't treated as superman in his own right nor is he given the importance. This guy needs to be treated as not some comic relief or something with respect. If and when he is, then i will believe that.

    This feels like a better example of being superman. Than most who writers have him be a hollow saint. And no this isn't meant to be funny or cute. And i am being serious. If you ask me he should have been made Clark's successor. Not 4 random dudes. The story would have been much better.

    "this looks like a job for the hard as nails softie".

    "Giving a damn when you see people suffering ". In this world where we are all wrapped in our own worlds. People who give a damn are far less miniscule a number.I do not think its justified to criticise them. its self-perpetuating cycle and they are themselves suffering . So, that itself mean most won't be able to become superman.It is when those who don't give a damn, start to give damn or begin to like superman.only then can he become any sort of example. For that they need to see any part of themselves in superman. They need to empathise or sympathise with the character.it's when those who have tendency to take self-interest first begins to like superman, the character begins to work. Otherwise, he isn't a better example.

    Guys like these are one in thousands or even millions. Not to say they shouldn't be cherised. Heck! They are the ones who should be. But, clark isn't even this guy. He doesn't need anything no food, no shelter, no security.. Etc. He is absolved of man's selfish desires.

    The thing about Superman and people is that, people say Superman isn't relatable. Well, he can't relate to people either. It's someone who can't understand what you are going through nor felt the way you felt making a comment on your predicament,Whatever that maybe. That can be very offensive to people.(i am not talking about the allstar thing. But, writers who try to emulate that scene without the context or try to do their own version of the scene without nuances.It does not help the character at all)
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-19-2020 at 01:23 AM.

  9. #2604
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Yeah! I don't think anyone can be superman. Bibbo going out to help a puppy in need is treated as cutesy scene or even funny one. He isn't treated as superman in his own right nor is he given the importance. This guy needs to be treated as not some comic relief or something with respect. If and when he is, then i will believe that.

    This feels like a better example of being superman. Than most who writers have him be a hollow saint. And no this isn't meant to be funny or cute. And i am being serious. If you ask me he should have been made Clark's successor. Not 4 random dudes. The story would have been much better.

    "this looks like a job for the hard as nails softie".

    "Giving a damn when you see people suffering ". In this world where we are all wrapped in our own worlds. People who give a damn are far less miniscule a number.I do not think its justified to criticise them. its self-perpetuating cycle and they are themselves suffering . So, that itself mean most won't be able to become superman.It is when those who don't give a damn, start to give damn or begin to like superman.only then can he become any sort of example. For that they need to see any part of themselves in them. They need to empathise or sympathise with the character.it's when thise who have tendency to take self-interest first begins to like superman, the character begins to work. Otherwise, he isn't a better example.

    Guys like these are one in thousands or even millions. Not to say they shouldn't be cherised. Heck! They are the ones who should be. But, clark isn't even this guy. He doesn't need anything no food, no shelter, no security.. Etc. He is absolved of man's selfish desires.

    The thing about Superman and people is that, people say Superman isn't relatable. Well, he can't relate to people either. It's someone who can't understand what you are going through nor felt the way you felt making a comment on your predicament,Whatever that maybe. That can be very offensive to people.(i am not talking about the allstar thing. But, writers who try to emulate that seen without the context or try to do their own version of the scene without nuances.It does not help the character at all)
    For what it's worth, he's trying to be the character cape and all. I was speaking to character itself; Clark uses his gifts to help where he can. Anyone can do that. Taking the time to help others, be it with food, labor or what have you, is what Clark does. He just does it to an exaggerated degree.

    Everyone makes fun of Superman pulling cats out of trees, but he does that and so can you. The whole point of "anyone can be Superman" as a statement is that anyone can chose to help. Don't be so literal about it.

    Moreover, I may be misunderstanding your post, but I don't recall having anything disparaging to say about people who do in fact give a damn. And yes, anyone CAN be like him. They just make choices not to. Everything Kal does is just an exaggeration of things we can do.

    And yes, I would say there is reasonable grounds for criticizing people who selfishly care only for themselves, regardless of how many do so. Overlooking poor behavior is how it thrives.
    Last edited by Robanker; 02-19-2020 at 12:17 AM.

  10. #2605
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    As for the idea that Superman hoards knowledge, it's kind of a necessary evil. It's great to show how vast Superman's knowledge and reach are, but if you set the narrative so that he shares it with all of humanity then at some point Superman's world is going to be so far displaced from ours. It's a feeling I had after watching Black Panther. Okay, so you get Vibranium, and you get Vibranium, and you get Vibranium... how is the MCU going to look like now that everyone on Earth gets to share Vibranium and all the miracles it creates? MCU started to go there with Iron Man and his nanotech suit, but they obviously had a plan for Iron Man that would make the stor self-limiting. The more your characters display the potential to end certain world problems, you might have inched too far into fantasy, or at least into a recognizable world within which these stories are supposed to take place.
    There is also the fact that if All Star Superman is overly paternalistic, it DOES present that as a flaw of his. He finally tries to confess his double identity to Lois, but in trying to protect her from the knowledge that he's dying he's unintentionally patronizing her, doesn't engender trust between them and nearly ruins his relationship with her. Lois calls him out on his bullshit, and she's 100% right.

    He also does share knowledge with Leo Quintum, who is the one who finds the solution for Kandor. Clark even chides himself for not having faith to let them take those steps on their own and needing Quintum as a second set of eyes to point that out. Lana also calls him and Pete out for hiding the secret from her even though she clearly knows.

    some people dismiss All-Star of having a basic, too-perfect take on Superman. I actually think it preserves him as an inspirational, pure hearted hero but still with quirks and flaws. It just presents them in a more nuanced and mature way than the typical melodrama we get from "flawed" characters in mainstream comic books.

  11. #2606
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    For what it's worth, he's trying to be the character cape and all. I was speaking to character itself; Clark uses his gifts to help where he can. Anyone can do that. Taking the time to help others, be it with food, labor or what have you, is what Clark does. He just does it to an exaggerated degree.

    Everyone makes fun of Superman pulling cats out of trees, but he does that and so can you. The whole point of "anyone can be Superman" as a statement is that anyone can chose to help. Don't be so literal about it.

    Moreover, I may be misunderstanding your post, but I don't recall having anything disparaging to say about people who do in fact give a damn. And yes, anyone CAN be like him. They just make choices not to. Everything Kal does is just an exaggeration of things we can do.

    And yes, I would say there is reasonable grounds for criticizing people who selfishly care only for themselves, regardless of how many do so. Overlooking poor behavior is how it thrives.
    Yeah! That post was me being tired and running around. Sorry, about that. This notion is perpetuated that anyone can be superman. When an anyone(bibbo) takes up the mantle its treated as cutesy, funny side story,Not the main one. If anyone can be superman why is a guy in a tin can, a clone, a alien machine, a cyborg.. Etc given more importance than a guy who embodies example that people so desperately needs. Why is that guy trivialised? Think about it, bibbo has drinking problems. He isn't healthy and doesn't take care of himself. He even didn't have job in dcau, if i remember correctly . He has all the weaknesses of a human. Yet, he takes the suit up and goes out to defend the symbol and its honour. He did it because he believes in it. Dare i say bibbo is more of an example for man kind than superman. The same as the thai guy. He gives damn. But he is also struggling with things like money, food, apartment.. Etc. Yet, he does the right thing. He helps out in his own little ways he could. These guys have flaws and weakness. They overcome them and its a true never ending battle. To get past yourself

    Superman doesn't feel any of these things.he doesn't have needs like us and on top of that,he barely has any wants because of most writers.He doesn't feel dark temptations like hawkeye or batman. I admit superman gives a damn. But, how is he going to be an example to us?To become an example, he needs to be first understood by those who with flaws and weaknesses, whom have stopped giving a damn in favour taking care of themselves. These people cannot be criticized because its a self-perpetuating cycle. We all are living in our own little world, with our own struggles, demons.it is hard to help others when you are suffering yourself. these people are the majority.Saying "those who don't give a damn" can't be superman would eliminate most of them And then saying anyone can is contradictory . Those who don't give a damn need an idol to better themselves too. There superman fails.With the above guys those people can see themselves. The people in subject, largely find it hard to relate, sympathise or empathise with superman. They don't see themselves in superman and vice versa. It is crucial that example be someone that people can see themselves in.Otherwise, it would be like someone who doesn't know what you are going through or know how you are feeling makes a comment or judgements on your predicaments, flaws or moral weakness in the guise of compassion.

    Just Criticizing them wouldn't change anything. It's like calling people fat or lazy. For them to change they need attainable goal (it's upto the individual) and change in thought process. If i am hungry and i need a bowls of rice to be atleast energetic. Asking me to share half and making it a necessity would be foolish. Only, small number of people would do that. But, if a guy who doesn't have the capacity to share half. But is willing to give a hand full. Then that guy automatically becomes something attainable for those who aren't ready to give half.

    Till now, what they did was spidermanise superman in order to get him to be relatable and saintify him to get him to be an example . That isn't right. It's great take. Neither of these are sustainable because
    1)they are contradictory states, an everyman and a saint
    2)the character wasn't meant to be both
    Superman can't be an example for people. And that's ok. He shouldn't be written to be that.

    He pulls out cat from a tree. Because he can and he is the moral paragon which is symbolism being perpetuated. We can do alot of things. But we don't. Why? We are selfish creatures. We can't be moral paragons. If i am late for work and find a cat on tree. Yeah! I ain't climbin up. Might alert animal rescue or something if have mobile or when i get there. If i don't have those options and i need to choose between work and the cat. Yeah! I need my job so. Bye! Bye! Kitty, hope someone rescues you. This is what many would do. I wouldn't fault them for it.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-19-2020 at 08:27 AM.

  12. #2607
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    In regards to a secret ID exposure, Bendis's idea in terms of reasoning is incredibly misinformed but its thus far been executed decently. I don't expect that to last as things will likely get even more stupid and contrived to accomodate Generation Five, but again, execution has been fine for as bad an idea it is.

    Truth was rather the opposite. It is actually the better idea, if one has to do a reveal storyline in the first place, but it was executed horribly. In terms of drama, story potential, dynamic potential, the idea of Superman's ID being exposed against his will, and by Lois for a non-malicious reason, on paper it all has greater potential than Clark doing it just because he has everything he's always wanted laid out for him on a silver platter and he wants to be open. But from advertisement to the actual writing of the story, Truth ended up blowing.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  13. #2608
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I'm fine with the Regan scene. Could they have dedicated one entire issue on what caused her depression? I guess, but since A-SS is commercial art, I can understand why they didn't go there. Overall, I'm okay with the message that if Superman can help someone who needs his help, he does it. And not that it really gives me more authority to speak on the matter, but I was diagnosed with depression about 12 years ago, FWIW.

    As for the idea that Superman hoards knowledge, it's kind of a necessary evil. It's great to show how vast Superman's knowledge and reach are, but if you set the narrative so that he shares it with all of humanity then at some point Superman's world is going to be so far displaced from ours. It's a feeling I had after watching Black Panther. Okay, so you get Vibranium, and you get Vibranium, and you get Vibranium... how is the MCU going to look like now that everyone on Earth gets to share Vibranium and all the miracles it creates? MCU started to go there with Iron Man and his nanotech suit, but they obviously had a plan for Iron Man that would make the stor self-limiting. The more your characters display the potential to end certain world problems, you might have inched too far into fantasy, or at least into a recognizable world within which these stories are supposed to take place.

    I can understand why many people love the Regan scene in ASS. It's powerful to see that Superman cares so much for everyone, even the little guy or girl nobody notices. We don't know what more happened in that time Superman shared with Regan. Why if they talked longer? It's open to interpretation. I've had anxiety and depression in my life. Not very long but I know how it feels to not want to live anymore. It really helps when someone shows emotional support like that. thankfully, it didn't last for me.

    Also agree Superman shouldn't solve all the problems of the world. That's like opening Pandora's Box.

  14. #2609
    Superfan Through The Ages BBally's Avatar
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    Don't know how controversial this opinion is but I felt both Curt Swan's art and Elliott S! Maggin's writing complimented each other so well, I dare say their dynamic almost rivals that of Siegel and Shuster themselves when it comes to Superman.



    No matter how many reboots, new origins, reinterpretations or suit redesigns. In the end, he will always be SUPERMAN

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  15. #2610
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    ome people dismiss All-Star of having a basic, too-perfect take on Superman. I actually think it preserves him as an inspirational, pure hearted hero but still with quirks and flaws. It just presents them in a more nuanced and mature way than the typical melodrama we get from "flawed" characters in mainstream comic books.
    I find this is an issue with Clark quite often. He's a nuanced character with a lot of layers and depth, and not all those layers are bright and perfect and shiny. But he doesn't have big obvious flaws tacked onto him like most characters. Instead of "alcoholic" or whatever loud, obnoxious flaw you want to point at, Clark's are quiet, and harder to see past the "S" shield. His hypocrisy, his habitual lying, his arrogance.....this stuff doesn't stand out like Tony Stark breaking into a cold sweat if he even smells a beer, yknow?

    And of course, Clark's legend and image get in the way. A lot of people look at Batman and assume he's a hero right? Even though he's a huge asshole, a control freak, and abusive, people see a hero and subconsciously assume his actions are justified. Likewise, Clark's less-than-desirable traits often get ignored. He's Superman after all, so he can't be wrong right?
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

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