Controversial Superman Opinions

[phonogram12]

Protoplasm Supergirl would've been better off being it's own thing than TPTB deciding that it would be the new Supergirl. Seriously, that angle was almost completely unnecessary for the PAD series.

[SiegePerilous02]

Protoplasm Supergirl would've been better off being it's own thing than TPTB deciding that it would be the new Supergirl. Seriously, that angle was almost completely unnecessary for the PAD series.

I think Matrix Supergirl could have worked as a legacy to Kara. As in, Kara was still in continuity, but she died in COIE and Matrix was Supergirl II. But as a full blown replacement to Kara, it's just a weirdly complicated idea to avoid a simple set up that has proved to have more longevity.

Linda Danvers may also have worked better as a Supergirl II/III with Kara in continuity. Kara's spirit merging with her to create an angel would actually make more sense. Though Linda would have to be named something else in this scenario (as "Linda Danvers" is Kara's alias). Maybe she could be Kara's cousin through the Danvers'?

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

Superman and Wonder Woman dating was one of the worst things to happen to either character. Besides being a boring mismatch, it happened at the expense of both their individual corners of the dcu. I can't think of a worst possible future than if it actually stuck and they merged both mythos together. I blame what happened to the new 52 Superman almost entirely on that pairing. Shackling him to a crossover romance must have been suffocating creatively, I don't blame writers for seeing the rut both characters were getting into and scorching earth.
Lois and Clark don't always need to be an item, there are other options both ones that already exist like Lana or something new. Just no more Diana, for both their sakes.
Elseworld versions like Kingdom Come or Injustice are fine though. As for other media, I'd rather they distance Diana from being Mrs Superman or Mrs Batman, so I hope it's avoided in tv/movies too.

[Stanlos]

Protoplasm Supergirl would've been better off being it's own thing than TPTB deciding that it would be the new Supergirl. Seriously, that angle was almost completely unnecessary for the PAD series.

I remember really liking the Matrix Supergirl because of the specifics of her powers' means to their superpower ends as compared to others like Supes himself or Martian Manhunter. I like when there is depth and variety in the details. I don't like when everything is the same but I think the general public likes homogeneity and so the DCU which was once so varied in its powers and dynamics of its characters have been simplified to the point of assembly line cookie cutter majesty.

When PAD took away all of Supergirl's powers specific to Matrix at the end of the first issue I was mad upset. But I understood WHY he did it. Matrix Supergirl had a LOT of powers that worked differently from most heroes and would make it difficult to write for the character. So he took away the big problem powers. Eventually, the amazing characters and intriguing Earth Angel bits won me over. It is easily the most compelling collection of stories told with the character. But had you asked me at publication I would have yelled RRRAAAAGGGHH and hit the wall like BOP BOP BAHP

[Gaius]

Superman and Wonder Woman dating was one of the worst things to happen to either character. Besides being a boring mismatch, it happened at the expense of both their individual corners of the dcu. I can't think of a worst possible future than if it actually stuck and they merged both mythos together. I blame what happened to the new 52 Superman almost entirely on that pairing. Shackling him to a crossover romance must have been suffocating creatively, I don't blame writers for seeing the rut both characters were getting into and scorching earth.
Elseworlds like Kingdom Come or Injustice are fine though.

I'm largely neutral on Superman and Wonder Woman dating, I could see both going "why not?" and give it a try before deciding they're better as friends. Superman writers are also somewhat better than Batman ones when it comes to it as usually the attraction is shown going, openly, both ways. But stuff like Injustice has definitely made it a turn-off for me and can be just as bad when writers pair or hint at BM/WW.

[Sacred Knight]

I guess in contrary my opinion would be that the SM/WW did exactly zero damage. For the time it lasted, and the much smaller continuity footprint it was in. Now, had the New 52 not ended and it continued, would problems have cropped up? Possibly. Probably. As two different IPs, its likely things would have eventually started clashing as the individual lores grew again. But for the time it lasted in the environment it was done in? Nothing bad happened at all. It hampered exactly one creative idea: Azz wanting to put WW with Orion in his run. And everyone hated Orion in that run anyway so it ended up helping. I don't think it qualifies as even making a particularly long "bad things to happen to" list for either character.

Matrix could work in a modern continuity if, instead of the Supergirl/Linda role since that's already taken, she gets a brand new identity and for her human guise, she's written up as Conner's twin sister.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

I guess in contrary my opinion would be that the SM/WW did exactly zero damage. For the time it lasted, and the much smaller continuity footprint it was in. Now, had the New 52 not ended and it continued, would problems have cropped up? Possibly. Probably. As two different IPs, its likely things would have eventually started clashing as the individual lores grew again. But for the time it lasted in the environment it was done in? Nothing bad happened at all. It hampered exactly one creative idea: Azz wanting to put WW with Orion in his run. And everyone hated Orion in that run anyway so it ended up helping. It doesn't even make a long list of "bad things to happen to" for either character.

Matrix could work in a modern continuity if, instead of the Supergirl/Linda role since that's already taken, she gets a brand new identity and for her human guise, she's written up as Conner's twin sister.

not possibly, not probably, it CERTAINLY would have damaged both properties, had smarter minds than the likes of Didio and Soule prevailed and fixed what HAD to be fixed.
And as for that Orion thing. Saying limiting Wonder Woman writers to make way for Superman writers is a good thing....frankly that seems patronizing at best. Wonder Woman doesn't need Superman to protect her from Orion or whatever else nonsense.
look at the whole affair. Superman writers used Wonder Woman, limiting what Azzarello could write, and then cast her aside in Superman stories like death of N52 Superman and Reborn.
trinity shipping, especially between Superman and Wonder Woman, is a tumor for all 3 properties.
as for zero damage, Clark had to be fricking KILLED and debooted to fix things. It was a disaster.

[Sacred Knight]

I'm not saying they should have had to make way for Superman. I've always considered it a good thing that they didn't force Azz to use Superman in a story that wasn't meant to include him. And I've never seen any evidence that on the other side of things, Superman writers using WW limited what Azz could do during his run. Rather the WW that Superman writers wrote was built around the Azz version. They never contradicted anything. So I still say the only tangible limit we know happened was the Orion ship. Which would actually end up helping the run, because he was one the Azz's runs few mistakes, even if not the intent.

To me my personal feelings aside in regards to the purely subjective like chemistry and the like, trinity shipping being objectively good or bad depends on a few things, mainly setting and medium.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

I'm not saying they should have had to make way for Superman. I've always considered it a good thing that they didn't force Azz to use Superman in a story that wasn't meant to include him. And I've never seen any evidence that on the other side of things, Superman writers using WW limited what Azz could do. Rather the WW that Superman writers wrote was built around the Azz version They never contradicted anything. So I still say the only tangible we know happened was the Orion ship. Which would actually ended up helping the run, even if not the intent.

yeah my point stands, whether Wonder Woman sinks or swims (the success of her movies prove she can can and will swim!) should be on her own merits. Her success in the movies show she doesn't needs Clark as a life preserver, and that goes the other way around.

[Sacred Knight]

I would agree. She doesn't need him to succeed nor he her. But I've not argued for that particular stance.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

I would agree. She doesn't need him to succeed nor he her. But I've not argued for that particular stance.

As I said, it led to the (unfortunate but sadly justified) death of an entire incarnation of the Superman character. Yet, you claimed it did 0 damage but then admitted that had the pairing survived both properties would have resulted in harm. I think what you're missing is that it did cause damage to both characters. To Wonder Woman creatively, to Superman in that he had to die just to get rid of Wonder Woman's influence on his books/franchise.

[Sacred Knight]

That's because I don't think the relationship was responsible for New 52 Superman being killed off. The end of the New 52 initiative wholesale leading to Rebirth is far more layered than just Superman being with Wonder Woman made him unsustainable. They wanted the history back. They wanted characters like OG Wally back. Thus they didn't want the original gen young anymore. Then with Superman in particular you had writers given the reigns who absolutely hated the New 52 version of Superman altogether. Not just who he was dating. Nothing about him they liked. And on top of that they had to make room for his son whom Didio now wanted in canon. Those things were far bigger contributors. Those are what would weave the pattern of events that would have them land on having him killed and replaced by another version. If his dating habits were the main problem, all they had to do was break it off. Its not like the romance to that point had produced anything that would have caused ongoing complications, so it would have been literally that easy to have them break it off and then move forward. The idea that it led to everything that eventually happened just doesn't make any sense.

So I think I'm being pretty consistent in my belief that in the time it lasted, it didn't do any damage to the characters.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

Well that's because I don't think the relationship was responsible for New 52 Superman being killed off.

I have little, to no doubt it wasn't. Writers famously hate their heroes being married. The fact that they ran back to him being married to Lois after after having acquired, the supposed freedom of bachelorhood with Diana, just means they flubbed it, realized the lead of another franchise as the main love interest was way more convoluted than just using Lois.
One franchise being dependent on the other in such a intimate way. Recipe for inevitable disaster.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

They wanted the history back. They wanted characters like OG Wally back. Thus they didn't want the original gen young anymore. Then with Superman in particular you had writers given the reigns who absolutely hated the New 52 version of Superman altogether. Not just who he was dating. Nothing about him they liked. .

Like I said before, about Superman writers using WW then discarding her when they moved on.
So now that it's again been said and re-said. Both properities are better off with separation than being forced together like ill thought out "shippers."

[Sacred Knight]

Its not a new point, but they're also points completely independent of two properties' relationship status. That's our disconnect. You said you blame what happened to the New 52 Superman almost completely on it. I don't, I think in the scheme of things it was a minimal contributor if any contributor at all to the decisions they ultimately made.