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  1. #3181
    Mighty Member Gaius's Avatar
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    I'd keep magic around but it shouldn't be anymore a weakness to Superman than getting set on fire or deprived of oxygen is a "weakness" to regular humans.

  2. #3182
    Fantastic Member magha_regulus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I'd keep magic around but it shouldn't be anymore a weakness to Superman than getting set on fire or deprived of oxygen is a "weakness" to regular humans.
    Funny thing is this is exactly how is supposed to be.

  3. #3183
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    Red sunlight shouldn't deplete his energy. It just means that he doesn't get enough power from it.

    It's extremely annoying whenever he's shown being weakened by Red sunlight.

  4. #3184
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Red sunlight shouldn't deplete his energy. It just means that he doesn't get enough power from it.

    It's extremely annoying whenever he's shown being weakened by Red sunlight.
    It's part of the inconsistency in just what his powers are and how they work.

    Is he basically a human being using solar energy to fuel a TK-ish set of fields around himself (Byrne era take)

    Is he an alien with different organs and body processes (minature suns in his bloodstream)

    Is he a human being evolved to live in a hostile/alien environment whose natural powers are superhuman in our environment- plus having solar energy on top of that (Pre-Crisis take, Snyder MOS take).

    Different ideas on just how he gets his powers in relation to sunlight have different ideas about how "red solar rays" impact the powers. Some takes would have him absorbing power as long as he is under our sun no matter what (under a red solar lamp, being exposed to Green K, standing at the edge of a singularity's event horizon). Some would imply that he just stops absorbing new energy but can keep his powers running on a back-up of stored power which would slowly deplete. And others would state that there is some process that activates his powers that is triggered by our sun's light and that anything interfering with that ("red rays", Green-K, being in shadows) simply prevents that process from activating leaving him immediately with no powers.

    I'd prefer them to work out ONE pseudo-scientific set of facts and stick to it. This is how Superman works and if your story requires something different you simply have to change the story or use a different character than a Kryptonian. But that would require someone to actually look at the stories (let's call him an editor) and have the authority and backbone to tell fans and creators "no". I don't think DC has anyone with that sort of job description anymore.
    Last edited by Jon Clark; 08-08-2020 at 10:03 PM.

  5. #3185
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    Born with a brain, I don't know that I have a brain or how it works. I only know this because of science. But if I had been born a few thousand years ago, I wouldn't have learned any of that. People didn't even know what the brain did and some believed their thoughts came from their bellies.

    We have lots of abilities, but we don't need to know the science behind our powers to have those skills. Superman doesn't need to know the source of his powers or how they work, in order to use them.
    “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."
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  6. #3186
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I don't know if this is even going to be that controversial but...

    Pick a debilitating weakness (note I'm not saying vulnerability, I'm talking specifically debilitation). Is it Kryptonite? Is it red sunlight? Is it magic? Pick one. But you can't friggin' have all three anymore.
    I think you can still do three if it's clear how they are different.

    Kryptonite can kill him and acts like a debilitating poison.

    Red Sunlight drains him of his power over time, probably quickly, and requires he recharge after exposure.

    Magic is his great equalizer; he has no resistance to it and it hurts him as much as anyone else.

    If they're all going to just be a weakness, yeah, green k is what I'd keep.

  7. #3187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Born with a brain, I don't know that I have a brain or how it works. I only know this because of science. But if I had been born a few thousand years ago, I wouldn't have learned any of that. People didn't even know what the brain did and some believed their thoughts came from their bellies.

    We have lots of abilities, but we don't need to know the science behind our powers to have those skills. Superman doesn't need to know the source of his powers or how they work, in order to use them.
    I agree with that to an extent. I don't need the exact mechanisms of the powers explained or for Superman to understand them, but I do want the writers on the same basic page regarding just how different factors effect the powers.

    My problem is that if Writer A has one idea on how they work and Writer B has a different (but equally valid) idea then we get one story where Superman after several hours under a red sun is mildly stunned by a lightning strike because he still has a power reserve and another where Superman gets a papercut because the setting sun has a reddish hue. And then Writer C decides that under a purple sun Superman grows a second head that only speaks in rhyme because the writer feels that makes as much sense as gaining powers under a "yellow" sun.

  8. #3188
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    The rules that Mort Weisinger came up with make sense for me. By my calculation he needed about 150 stories per year for the Superman family of characters. The red off/yellow on plot device was easy to use for a lot of those stories. It was visual and simple for the reader to see and understand. Using colour was always a good thing, because colour was the big selling feature of comic books.

    If someone from Krypton arrives on Earth they instantly have powers and the same powers as Superman--so that works for Kandorians, Phantom Zoners, Supergirl and the Super-Pets. If any Kryptonian is under a red sun, they lose their powers. So that allows stories about Superman not having any powers. It's a quick and easy device, doesn't require a lot of panels--it gets you into the story and out efficiently.

    Of course, these stories were redundant. But then very few people were buying every title every month. Most people picked up a comic book when the whim hit them and they had enough money for one. So chances were good that the reader had not read this exact plot before.

    The rare breed that had so much geld they could outlay a bundle on every comic, they were the guys and gals writing into the letter page to call out every mistake and recite back to the editor every rule--they knew what effect every colour of sun and kryptonite had on Superman and they would even furnish an explanation for why a certain rule didn't apply--because the editor encouraged readers to not just spot errors but to invent solutions.

    This is how the chain-reaction in Argo City changed it to Anti-Kryptonite rather than Kryptonite--because an astute fan had wrote in to say that Kryptonite would have no effect on the Argoans under a red sun--therefore it had to be something else. Anti-Kryptonite would work in the reverse--it would affect people without powers but have no effect on those with powers.
    “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."
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  9. #3189
    Mighty Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    I have made peace with Kryptonite. In my head canon, any amount can be deadly because it's not quite science. A tiny ring sized amount can be just as deadly as Metallo's Fire Hose sized Kryptonite laser blasts. Magic, everyone has a vulnerability to magic so Superman should not be especially vulnerable unless the magic spell is just for him. Red Sun radiation, I like it to have a slow effect and drain him gradually. I despise the idea that people can make lamps or flashlights that sap his power. It ends up looking like Superman is vulnerable to red lightbulbs.

  10. #3190
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Despite being written by Maggin and Loeb, two normally quite good Superman writers, "Must There Be a Superman" is a garbage-fire story that hurt the character going forward.

    Never take advice from the Guardians, those fascist smurfs are just the worst.
    WHEN YOU DON'T VOTE, IT ISN'T REBELLION, IT'S SURRENDER!

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  11. #3191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    Despite being written by Maggin and Loeb, two normally quite good Superman writers, "Must There Be a Superman" is a garbage-fire story that hurt the character going forward.

    Never take advice from the Guardians, those fascist smurfs are just the worst.
    You need to develop your thesis more. How do you think it hurt?

    I quite like "Must There Be...?" I bought it fresh in the drugstore. I kind of liked the Private Life of Clark Kent story more--the funny way that the credits were done, the beautiful receptionist in Edge's office and her jack-ass of a kid brother, Bick (the name tells you all you have to know about the character). Murphy Anderson's inks for both stories were amazing--I think he was using zip-a-tone for some of the inking--I've never seen those inks replicated as well in any reprint as they appeared in the 25 cent comic book.

    Both stories, maybe by pure coincidence, were doing the same thing, but from different ends. Unlike Sand Superman imposing an outside limitation on Clark--these two stories used his own internal psychology as his limit. Which I would always prefer over any suns, magic or Kryptonite.

    "Must There...?" was cinematic in the way Swan told it. You have the outer space scene. Katma Tui! My all time favourite Green Lantern. The Guardians simply using psychology on Superman to undermine his confidence. The Guardians are ambiguous characters. Then we go down from this cosmic level to a grounded storyline, evoking such pathos for the oppressed farm workers and their back story.

    The thing that bugged me is that--just as there was no consequence to Sand Superman--there was no lasting repercussions from "Must?" The story might as well never have happened, because it's never referred back to again. There's no more Superman thought balloons where he questions his interference in the fate of human beings.

    One can suppose that maybe this is going on in his mind--and a fan can therefore explain why the Action Ace doesn't do something in a subsequent story on account of this psychological limit. Maybe he doesn't interfere in Vietnam or stop pollution for that reason. But it's never brought up ever again in any story. It's never lampshaded after that one issue.

    Not that I would necessarily want it to be in the following amazing adventures of Superman. While it's an interesting question to consider, by about 1974, Schwartz had put Relevance behind him (it wasn't profitable) and National Periodicals leaned heavily on what made their comics sell on the spinner racks--which was light entertainment. Superman stories became much lighter and didn't fuss about psychological issues. The Man of Steel went back to fighting super-villains and didn't bother with social quagmires.
    “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."
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  12. #3192
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    man who has everything:

    Superman doesn't punch random aliens he fought beings like Mongol and Darkseid. He protects the Earth, reality itself and has sacrificed himself to do it like in "Death of Superman." I think you need to read more Superman stories, they're there.

    The phrasing you've used is why I'm inclined to interpret your "strong man" in a more ominous light.

    That picture was what DC produced about Golden Age Superman’s presentation. What’s wrong with super-heroes giving moral lessons to children? That’s been a staple in comics since forever. Captain America was doing that when he was punching Hitler in the face in his debut.

    There’s no difference between the poster of Superman and Robocop, aside from Robocop being more threatening.

    Deadpool is a mercenary, in fact he’s had the nickname “Merc With a Mouth” for years. Merc, being short for mercenary.

    Tommy’s from a black comedy super-hero parody series, it’s like saying Preacher isn’t a comedy.

    This sort of thing is what military strongmen would do, not circus performers.

    More over, corrupt societies need to upheavaled. That's what goldenage superman and luffy's whole stance is. Sure, enough it will be destructive. But, it's worth it.
    As for, destabilising governments. If superman sees people being oppressed with consent of the people or through his moral conviction he woulr act .
    There’s a reason I keep on bringing up the Authority in these conversations.

    Except this ignores the history of how much Superman has suffered or made mistakes, rather than his actual history as a super-hero. All Superman does is fight for truth and justice.

    When did Golden Age Superman take over America to free it from corruption? He’d fight people who created munitions and help with natural disasters but he wasn’t changing society entirely, he acted on a smaller scale. He barely had any super-villains, aside from Lex. And his powers grew and grew over time, hardly a man fighting for his life for his causes. Are you confusing him with Earth 2 Superman? At least Post-Crisis Superman died for his efforts, when has Golden Age Superman ever been in danger?

    Luffy means well but he’s not a thinker, that’s why he has to stop people by using violence above all else. Being destructive is all he knows.

    But how you’ve explained how you want him to lead does suit him more like a politician than a super-hero.

    Except your descriptions would make Superman a politician by how he interacts with society, he’d get the final say on everything.

    That wasn’t the context for why you bought up Superman’s power level.

    That's where it comes from. There as no talking about circus strongmen in those quotes. There are Superman who do this, they're all villains.

    That poster was from Golden Age Superman, that's all there is to it. That's what DC wanted to be seen by their readers and they loved that in return.

    Robocop isn't doing anything differently. He's telling people how to behave, exactly like Superman does in his stories.

    Every Superman fights the corrupt, that’s what Post Crisis Superman did with villains like Lex Luthor and Bruno Manhiem.

    It is a bad argument but it’s not mine.

    That was the actual description of what “man of action” means, not your interpretation.

    That description of suffering to make heroes better is Zoom's motivation for torturing Wally West.



    The context for why his power eleven was bought was because

    And It’s not like Superman hasn’t suffered protecting world.



    But Luffy makes speeches, that’s how he inspired Coby. Which included punching Coby for no reason. Coby laughed it off because that abuse is normal to him, and all Luffy did was smile back.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bzgiL0vENo

    Current one? This hasn’t just been about a single Superman, you’ve castigated every Superman since WW2. Aside from Snyder’s.

  13. #3193
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    Creators are the foundation of characters, but in media like Superman (who’s constantly rebooted in comics and other media) other creators influence he creations just as much and make more relevant versions for their times. For instance, Claremont has a bigger impact on how people see the X-men than Stan and Jack Kirby. Byrne’s Superman is more recognizable as how everyone sees Superman than Siegel and Shuster’s.
    Goku is the pioneer for shonen heroes, and Goku himself is inspired by Superman and other figures like the Monkey King. Shonen heroes are male, young, impulsive, prone to violence, dumb, cunning, creative and spectacular fighters. Luffy is a prominent example, as is Yusuke and Naruto.

    It’s not about the elements they got from Golden Age Superman it’s how they’re separate individuals in their own right. Golden Age Superman was Earth 2 Superman, his name was Kal-L, the son of Mary and Jon Kent, he fought WW2 with the All-Star Squadron and his first citadel was outside Metropolis he wouldn’t get a Fortress of Solitude until later on. He worked at the Daily Star, and the editor in chief was George Taylor until he was replaced by Perry in the 50’s. In the Golden Age there as no Brainiac and Superman didn’t know where he came from. Kryptonite was introduced until the radio show New Adventures of Superman, Siegel had planned to introduce a prototype for the idea but it was rejected by DC. It wasn’t until the Silver Age Krypton was fully explored in the comics. He’s not the same person or from the mythology as his Golden Age Superman, that’s what I mean by evolved.

    I’m measuring the various Supermen against each other as individuals, it’s pointless to take out the parts inspired by other versions. Your arguments are based on liking certain Supermen while disliking the rest.

    Batman’s like in various incarnations because they’re faithful to the idea of him but putting a new spin on it.
    Which is why it’s bizarre why you’re comparing Luffy and his world with Superman’s. Luffy’s world has no realism in it, it’s exaggerated.

    Luffy’s a great character because of how he’s written, by any standard he’s in the boiler plate template for shonen hero.

    Goku is the pioneer for shonen heroes, and Goku himself is inspired by Superman and other figures like the Monkey King. Shonen heroes are male, young, impulsive, prone to violence, dumb, cunning, creative and spectacular fighters. Luffy is a prominent example, as is Yusuke and Naruto.

    Smallville Superman would be a genius compared to Luffy if we compared their intelligence.

    Speeches are good by the knowledge they serve, it has nothing to do with “suffering,” which is puzzling since in other threads Batman is viewed as having the same problems. And it’s not like Luffy is that bothered by his woes, he’s a happy go lucky character who always has a smile on his face.
    Snyder didn’t set up the context very clearly, he’s too busy hinting at things which is so strange since B vs S is 2 and half hours and 3 hours each. You’d think he’d put more effort in having his characters explain their opinions to the audience. And why is he doing that to Clark and not Lois? He’s ok sending her into a Tom Clancy-esque conspiracy and only be worried about paying too much for her seating. Clark’s occupation and context in the Daily Planet is far from clear, despite the fact he’s supposed to be a somewhat experienced journalist by now. It’s confusing for absolutely no reason.

    If people don’t get what his character’s motivations Snyder failed horribly at communicating it to his audience. These questions don’t come up in Nolan films because he tells them what they need to know.
    You’ve been a strong supporter of Snyder’s Superman in this thread and others, which is fine. The “shame” part was viewed as you’re distancing yourself from past posts about the subject as if it’s something to back away from at the moment.

    I’ve met Snyder fans here who are ok with Snyder saying insulting things and engaging in language which encourages their bad behavior and dismissing the abuse the fan base has enacted while hiding behind their charity like it’s a shield for bad acts. They’re not unfair persecuted, they just get upset when their opposition won’t worship Snyder.

    Snyder’s Superman is Superman, he’s just a bad rendition. But your arguments have shown that Superman as a general concept isn’t what you’re a fan of it’s very specific versions. Which is fine.

    Snyder’s Superman takes aesthetics and storylines from the comics and goes in strange directions with them. They remind me of Jon Peters’ quote about Superman must look like a crazed killer. It’s baffling. His Superman is nothing like the Superman in TDK or any I’ve read or watched and I’ve done both for numerous versions in comics and other media. That’s not what chivalry means. I’m sure you’ll find someone who likes the Phantom or Blackhawks, every character has their fans. Simone’s Birds of Prey boosted Lady Blackhawk.



    Snyder Superman is a bully. "Retire Batman or I will end you." It's not subtle.

    Sure it is, that's all Superman does and he's in more titles than Action Comics. What drama are you talking about? I'd understands if this was about Spiderman since he's a character who's in a soap opera but this is Superman. Everyone cares about their parents, especially a family as close as the Kent's. That's all incredibly vague. Superman constantly saves the world from alien conquerers, super-villains and the mob.

    That Superman, who I bought up earlier in fact, in Morrison’s run stood up against police brutality. Please I’d like examples of the “drama” you’re talking about. What issues and storylines are you referring to? What does any of that have to do with anything? It’s very vague in what you want for Superman comics.

    Those are real world people, not super-heroes in media. How people "fight" isn't about how much pain they suffer through and Superman's had his share of suffering and pain.






    Creators are the foundation of characters, but in media like Superman (who’s constantly rebooted in comics and other media) other creators influence he creations just as much and make more relevant versions for their times. For instance, Claremont has a bigger impact on how people see the X-men than Stan and Jack Kirby. Byrne’s Superman is more recognizable as how everyone sees Superman than Siegel and Shuster’s.
    Goku is the pioneer for shonen heroes, and Goku himself is inspired by Superman and other figures like the Monkey King. Shonen heroes are male, young, impulsive, prone to violence, dumb, cunning, creative and spectacular fighters. Luffy is a prominent example, as is Yusuke and Naruto.

    It’s not about the elements they got from Golden Age Superman it’s how they’re separate individuals in their own right. Golden Age Superman was Earth 2 Superman, his name was Kal-L, the son of Mary and Jon Kent, he fought WW2 with the All-Star Squadron and his first citadel was outside Metropolis he wouldn’t get a Fortress of Solitude until later on. He worked at the Daily Star, and the editor in chief was George Taylor until he was replaced by Perry in the 50’s. In the Golden Age there as no Brainiac and Superman didn’t know where he came from. Kryptonite was introduced until the radio show New Adventures of Superman, Siegel had planned to introduce a prototype for the idea but it was rejected by DC. It wasn’t until the Silver Age Krypton was fully explored in the comics. He’s not the same person or from the mythology as his Golden Age Superman, that’s what I mean by evolved.

    I’m measuring the various Supermen against each other as individuals, it’s pointless to take out the parts inspired by other versions. Your arguments are based on liking certain Supermen while disliking the rest.

    Batman’s like in various incarnations because they’re faithful to the idea of him but putting a new spin on it.
    Which is why it’s bizarre why you’re comparing Luffy and his world with Superman’s. Luffy’s world has no realism in it, it’s exaggerated.

    Luffy’s a great character because of how he’s written, by any standard he’s in the boiler plate template for shonen hero.

    Goku is the pioneer for shonen heroes, and Goku himself is inspired by Superman and other figures like the Monkey King. Shonen heroes are male, young, impulsive, prone to violence, dumb, cunning, creative and spectacular fighters. Luffy is a prominent example, as is Yusuke and Naruto.

    Smallville Superman would be a genius compared to Luffy if we compared their intelligence.

  14. #3194
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    Sure it is, that's all Superman does and he's in more titles than Action Comics. What drama are you talking about? I'd understands if this was about Spiderman since he's a character who's in a soap opera but this is Superman. Everyone cares about their parents, especially a family as close as the Kent's. That's all incredibly vague. Superman constantly saves the world from alien conquerers, super-villains and the mob.

    That Superman, who I bought up earlier in fact, in Morrison’s run stood up against police brutality. Please I’d like examples of the “drama” you’re talking about. What issues and storylines are you referring to? What does any of that have to do with anything? It’s very vague in what you want for Superman comics.

    Those are real world people, not super-heroes in media. How people "fight" isn't about how much pain they suffer through and Superman's had his share of suffering and pain.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 08-11-2020 at 06:58 AM.

  15. #3195
    Mighty Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    Despite being written by Maggin and Loeb, two normally quite good Superman writers, "Must There Be a Superman" is a garbage-fire story that hurt the character going forward.

    Never take advice from the Guardians, those fascist smurfs are just the worst.
    I like "Must there be a Superman" and I think it is definitely one of the definitive Superman stories. I do think Maggin probably has a more intuitive understanding of little blue people than he does migrant workers, at least at the time. The book has good intentions but Superman comes off as tone deaf to the modern ear. He ends up telling migrant workers they should look amongst themselves rather than wait for a Superman to save them. Who is this book written for? The migrant workers from that time already had heroes from among their ranks. I would have asked Superman to leave after he took care of the earthquake. I know it's not fair to criticize a work of art out of context, but the characterization of those people was never fair. Anyways, still a great book and definitely worth reading.

    I think the book that tackles the same topic from around the time, and one that I find easier to relate to is, "A Superman in Supertown." He hears from a heavyweight champ how Superman makes him feel obsolete. Who cares if you are the best boxer in a world with super humans? Then Superman travels to New Genesis and finds he doesn't quite fit in as a god. The tone is more about self discovery than a lecture.

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