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  1. #2551
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    Hasn't Clark written a story where he criticised Superman?You make it sound as if he's never been called out for things but I'm sure he has, because he's not as perfect a saint as he's generally made out to be. Just because his morals appear to be beyond reproach doesn't mean the man himself is faultless or that people around him are completely blinded to them, especially with Lois, the one who should know him best of all. Before the reveal many others only ever formed an idea of who he is based on what he wanted them to see, not a true reflection of who he is so they aren't really great judges of character, even in their supposed "worshipping" of Superman. The reveal now offers an opportunity for others to take a good look at the man, the superhero and form a better informed opinion of who Superman/Clark Kent is.
    Last edited by rpmaluki; 02-17-2020 at 11:13 AM.

  2. #2552
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I'm with you, but he does have a point. Superman demands a little more of people. With Batman and other "flawed" heroes, they're all about letting your worst attributes rule you, and as long as you can channel that negativity into something vaguely positive then hooray for you. But Superman? This guy asks for more from you, just by existing. Just by being who and what he is, he shows you a better way, but it's a much harder path. And people who aren't interested in trying to be better people, the ones who think they're good as they are and would rather let the bad days rule them? They don't like Superman showing that there's another option. Those people look like less, when compared to Clark. So, when culture is leaning towards the angry and selfish, when we're jaded and cynical and are fine with cheating and flexible morality, of course Superman's popularity wanes.

    But I'll be damned if that's not the best reason there could be for Clark to stay exactly as he is, and keep showing us that better path.
    You are missing the point? The question is simple. Are only the strong allowed to have an idol to look towards? Are the weak not entitled one to be the best the Actually can be(especially when written to have an ending story) ? Superman's standard will only lead to the salvation of the strong. Whom are elites and are few. Who can follow him. Batman provides something tangible for the weak. He turns something negative into positive while being personally involved . Would you say that is a low bar? For example in story, the sons of batman in dark knight returns.

    Superman isn't touched by sins (when writer go for that) . He is above it. His power absolved him of it. How can a man hope to compare? A man who can't be petty or lazy or prideful.. Etc

    Quote Originally Posted by rpmaluki View Post
    Hasn't Clark written a story where he criticised Superman?You make it sound as if he's never been called out for things but I'm sure he has, because he's not as perfect a saint as he's generally made out to be. Just because his morals appear to be beyond reproach doesn't mean the man himself is faultless or that people around him are completely blinded to them, especially with Lois, the one who should know him best of all. Before the reveal many others only ever formed an idea of who he is based on what he wanted them to see, not a true reflection of who he is so they aren't really great judges of character, even in their supposed "worshipping" of Superman. The reveal now offers an opportunity for others to take a good look at the man, the superhero and form a better informed opinion of who Superman/Clark Kent is.
    How often does that happen? Does clark criticising himself inform his stature in his world or lack there of? No, it doesn't. He would still be a saint. Infact it furthers notion of his sainthood.be that as may, he has faults. Has him getting over his faults been an inspiration? I have yet to see it. His faults are merely superficial. I ask again

    Would you accept this to be a superman? If this man can't be a supeman? Then superman is limited as a symbol . He is the embodiment of pre-enlightenment thought.it's great and all if you are into the faith and religion want a messiah.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-17-2020 at 12:31 PM.

  3. #2553
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    You are missing the point? The question is simple. Are only the strong allowed to have an idol to look towards? Are the weak not entitled one to be the best the Actually can be(especially when written to have an ending story) ? Superman's standard will only lead to the salvation of the strong. Whom are elites and are few. Who can follow him. Batman provides something tangible for the weak. He turns something negative into positive while being personally involved . Would you say that is a low bar? For example in story, the sons of batman in dark knight returns.

    Superman isn't touched by sins (when writer go for that) . He is above it. His power absolved him of it. How can a man hope to compare? A man who can't be petty or lazy or prideful.. Etc
    aren't these qualities people generally grow out of, at the very least attempt to? Clark has had to do that himself, and more intently due to his abilities affording him an easy way out. He wasn't born without sin or has he never been touched by it, Martha and Jonathan literally ingrained (constant training) a moral code when Clark himself wanted to lash out, be petty and prideful, etc. Him coming out on the other side is to be an example to others. We all go through moments of the above but we're never meant to camp there indefinitely.
    Last edited by rpmaluki; 02-17-2020 at 11:40 AM.

  4. #2554
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I miss when Bruce considered Dick and Clark his best friends, with no bullshit "keeping them at arms length" or "uneasy allies" stuff thrown in. I can't believe that seemingly most comic fans prefer the modern take on him. When I first watched BTAS as a kid I loved the character. Then I go read some comics from around the same time or later and I'm like "what the f***? Did I imagine him being a likeable protagonist?" And then I read some old Bronze age issues and I get a take closer to what I first encountered.

    If they have to keep going back to the "Superman vs. Batman" well, I'd rather the Superman side get some more shots in. But as a fan of both characters, I'd prefer it be put to rest altogether and both characters overhauled without the last few decades worth of baggage.
    Going back and re-watching I pick up on details and nuances that I missed the first time. Like what I said about how his rule is "no killing HUMANS"... As a kid I rarely thought about that. Until the episode where Bruce marries one of Ivy's plant monsters. That particular batch of plant monsters didn't just mimic human behavior they actually acted like people.
    Relationships aren't supposed to be easy. Even I know that and I'm a vegetable.
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    It is obviously a good point that they're EVIL. But.... the same is true of the bank robbers and other thugs Batman beats up on a daily basis. It's especially interesting at the end when Batman throws his wedding ring into the ocean as soon as he thinks Susan is dead.

    One could make the argument that this is a special case, but it's really not.

    It's part of what I like about Superman. He's NOT the sort of person to massacre a "bunch of plant monsters" while ignoring whether they count as people.
    Last edited by marhawkman; 02-17-2020 at 12:00 PM.

  5. #2555
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Why do some people say Superman is boring because he's too good and perfect, but I never hear them say Wonder Woman is the same way?

    Aren't they pretty similar powerwise and their ideals?

    Makes me think some of those people just hate Superman and his powers and ideals. too cynical to get him. Also, I bet they haven't even read or seen enough of his good stories.



    Robanker, great post.

    People are also inherently petty and don't like those they perceive as their better, ergo "he's not so special, just take [x] away and he's nothing." In Clark's case, they think killing Lois sends him full dictator and DC indulges them because they'll pay for it. Superman's conceit is that he's fundamentally a good person who is incorruptible, so people take offense because they can't get over themselves long enough to be inspired by an example and instead want to tear it down to feel better about themselves. That's why they love Batman. He's "one of us," so they get to tear down Superman vicariously through him even though Bruce is equally unrealistic, just in a different context.
    I think Superman can be interesting and also inspirational when they show how difficult it can be to do the right thing. Sometimes at a great personal cost. When writers do that, it gives more dimension to the character. It's why the Black Mercy stories are good, because people have to do what's right even when logic say don't do it.
    Last edited by stargazer01; 02-17-2020 at 12:25 PM.

  6. #2556
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpmaluki View Post
    aren't these qualities people generally grow out of, at the very least attempt to? Clark has had to do that himself, and more intently due to his abilities affording him an easy way out. He wasn't born without sin or has he never been touched by it, Martha and Jonathan literally ingrained (constant training) a moral code when Clark himself wanted to lash out, be petty and prideful, etc. Him coming out on the other side is to be an example to others. We all go through moments of the above but we're never meant to camp there indefinitely.
    They grow out of it or learn to curb it.We are'nt absolved of it in the first place. That's the reason people feel attachment towards the likes of green arrowor batman or spiderman. Clark soaks these teaching like a sponge, never to repeat them mostly . Because he has an inherent quality. It isn't just the earth parents that contributed. The sky parents gave embued him inherent altruism in his very genes. Otherwise, a child that powerful has no reason to follow an authority figure. Clark at that young age puts his power aside and takes up responsibility. Something peter parker couldn't do in his teenage years. Peter was taught "with great power comes great responsibility". Did he follow that? No, it took the death of ben. We aren't. But, we have to go through them first. Even then we might revert.And not all children follow things just cause their parents tell them. Children are notoriously naughty. We don't lose our demons. We carry them and learn to live with them. Clark's major demon is that he puts on a glasses. Compare that to being responsible for the death of your uncle or going insane due to an unfortunate tragedy. Its nothing. Clark may have lashed out or punched bully in anger. But, that itself is course corrected then and there by his parents and his own inherent altruism. (i am only talking about modern interpretation)

    I am not saying clark needs these demon. All i am saying is, this notion that batman or spiderman is a lesser symbol is false.The morally inherently weaker individual need something to latch on to as well. What superman needs to be saint like figure just to be an example. Because he cannot be an effective example to a large portion as that. Superman works better when he isn't trying to be an example and doing his own thing. He could be better symbol that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    I think Superman can be interesting and also inspirational when they show how difficult it can be to do the right thing. Sometimes at a great personal cost. When writers do that, it gives more dimension to the character. It's why the Black Mercy stories are good, because people have to do what's right even when logic say don't do it.
    Bingo, Clark's struggle with letting go of his life he lived is human. But, it needs more than that. Clark needs to be allowed to be lazy or competitive or hot head or a scardy cat or a goof ball in a way that's endearing or makes people feel like "huh! I have been there". Have him redeem himself or try to.. Nobody says one punch man isn't relatable. And One punch man is the most powerful thing to exist.Why? Cause anyone can go through existential boredom.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-17-2020 at 12:44 PM.

  7. #2557
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    T


    Bingo, Clark's struggle with letting go of his life he lived is human. But, it needs more than that. Clark needs to be allowed to be lazy or competitive or hot head or a scardy cat or a goof ball in a way that's endearing or makes people feel like "huh! I have been there". Have him redeem himself or try to.. Nobody says one punch man isn't relatable. And One punch man is the most powerful thing to exist.Why? Cause anyone can go through existential boredom.
    A little internal conflict it's normal for even the best people, but it depends what the issue is. I think Clark should also feel all kinds of emotions like humans do because he was raised by them, but also but the best of them. He struggles sometimes, but he will always do what's right.

    I'm not against about him feeling some pride or being a bit arrogant about his power, especially with the bad guys. I think that's fun and he has done it in the movies too. It really depends on execution. The most important thing is that he wants to do the right thing and he protects the innocent.

    In general, I love a Superman who is loving, friendly, warm and funny, but also fierce, determined and protective when the situation calls for it.
    Last edited by stargazer01; 02-17-2020 at 12:56 PM.

  8. #2558
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Going back and re-watching I pick up on details and nuances that I missed the first time. Like what I said about how his rule is "no killing HUMANS"... As a kid I rarely thought about that. Until the episode where Bruce marries one of Ivy's plant monsters. That particular batch of plant monsters didn't just mimic human behavior they actually acted like people.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsyEznrvuF8
    It is obviously a good point that they're EVIL. But.... the same is true of the bank robbers and other thugs Batman beats up on a daily basis. It's especially interesting at the end when Batman throws his wedding ring into the ocean as soon as he thinks Susan is dead.

    One could make the argument that this is a special case, but it's really not.

    It's part of what I like about Superman. He's NOT the sort of person to massacre a "bunch of plant monsters" while ignoring whether they count as people.
    IDK, Clark (and Bruce) didn't seem to have an issue with Diana beheading Medusa, but freaked out about her killing Maxwell Lord. I think in their case, they considered Max to "count" more as a person than obviously inhuman Medusa.

  9. #2559
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    You are missing the point? The question is simple. Are only the strong allowed to have an idol to look towards? Are the weak not entitled one to be the best the Actually can be(especially when written to have an ending story) ? Superman's standard will only lead to the salvation of the strong. Whom are elites and are few. Who can follow him. Batman provides something tangible for the weak. He turns something negative into positive while being personally involved . Would you say that is a low bar? For example in story, the sons of batman in dark knight returns.
    I don't follow your logic about Clark only offering salvation to the strong. That makes no sense to me. And if it's a comparison to Batman....who understands and empathizes with the downtrodden and weak more? The guy who grew up on a farm, watching his parents worry about paying their bills, or the trust fund kid who lived in a mansion and could travel the world at a whim to find what he wanted? Clark can throw a bus but I can relate to his background far more than Bruce and his silver spoon.

    Yes, Batman is a low bar. Not so much decades ago when the man was capable of a smile, but especially in modern interpretations he let one bad day define his life and never, ever moved on from it. His parents' deaths aren't just inspiration, they're the main driving force in his life, decades after their deaths. He allowed himself to become an emotionally stunted control freak who is, at best, cold to his children and friends and at worst straight up abusive. The only thing about Batman worth emulating and admiring is his dedication and determination. But he's not a good man. He's a f*cking monster who ruins every life he touches....he just happens to fight on the "right" side, so all of his weaknesses and sins are forgiven.

    Superman isn't touched by sins (when writer go for that) . He is above it. His power absolved him of it. How can a man hope to compare? A man who can't be petty or lazy or prideful.. Etc
    When Clark is written as perfect, he's being written wrong. The guy has plenty of flaws and faults. The difference is, he tries to rise above them, not wallow in them and call it a strength. Clark *can* be petty and lazy and prideful. He *chooses* not to be. That's the difference; despite everything Clark has suffered, he refuses to let that pain define him. That's real strength, and it has nothing to do with how much he can bench press. Clark could lose every erg of power he has, and he'd still be a better hero and role model than Bruce.

    And I say this as a guy who enjoys Batman as a character. I just recognize that he's no role model, he's just a broken little boy who can't let himself heal and is afraid of being happy.

    Would you accept this to be a superman?
    What, Clark sitting on the couch relaxing? Of course that's Superman. There's countless stories written about what Clark does during his down time, the kinds of hobbies he enjoys, etc.

    Or do you mean picking his nose? That's not a quirk I'd normally associate with Superman, but who knows what kind of trouble Super-boogers could turn into? Best to pick them off before they can make a mess.
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  10. #2560
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    The idea that Batman has greater empathy with the downtrodden and weak is kinda ridiculous. Considering he's basically written to be willing to beat the living hell out of your typical street criminal at the drop of a hat while Clark will give almost anyone a second chance.

  11. #2561
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I don't follow your logic about Clark only offering salvation to the strong. That makes no sense to me. And if it's a comparison to Batman....who understands and empathizes with the downtrodden and weak more? The guy who grew up on a farm, watching his parents worry about paying their bills, or the trust fund kid who lived in a mansion and could travel the world at a whim to find what he wanted? Clark can throw a bus but I can relate to his background far more than Bruce and his silver spoon.

    Yes, Batman is a low bar. Not so much decades ago when the man was capable of a smile, but especially in modern interpretations he let one bad day define his life and never, ever moved on from it. His parents' deaths aren't just inspiration, they're the main driving force in his life, decades after their deaths. He allowed himself to become an emotionally stunted control freak who is, at best, cold to his children and friends and at worst straight up abusive. The only thing about Batman worth emulating and admiring is his dedication and determination. But he's not a good man. He's a f*cking monster who ruins every life he touches....he just happens to fight on the "right" side, so all of his weaknesses and sins are forgiven.



    When Clark is written as perfect, he's being written wrong. The guy has plenty of flaws and faults. The difference is, he tries to rise above them, not wallow in them and call it a strength. Clark *can* be petty and lazy and prideful. He *chooses* not to be. That's the difference; despite everything Clark has suffered, he refuses to let that pain define him. That's real strength, and it has nothing to do with how much he can bench press. Clark could lose every erg of power he has, and he'd still be a better hero and role model than Bruce.

    And I say this as a guy who enjoys Batman as a character. I just recognize that he's no role model, he's just a broken little boy who can't let himself heal and is afraid of being happy.



    What, Clark sitting on the couch relaxing? Of course that's Superman. There's countless stories written about what Clark does during his down time, the kinds of hobbies he enjoys, etc.

    Or do you mean picking his nose? That's not a quirk I'd normally associate with Superman, but who knows what kind of trouble Super-boogers could turn into? Best to pick them off before they can make a mess.
    No, this has nothing to do with being weak weak or being downtrodden. Being morally weak. Being full of doubts, fears, distrust,obsessions.. Etc.

    True, he does allow himself to be all that (emotionally stunted,control freak.. Etc) . But, he does also surround himself with people. He shows glimmers of real joy. His love might not be seen, but his care can be felt. His children are all orphans, their life would have been far worse trust me. He atleast gives them some community. You can be all of that and still be batman. Can a person be all of that and still be superman?Can a fucked up person become superman? If not, how is he an better example for people ? In case you haven't noticed. The number of fucked up people are greater in numbers. There in lies the problem. Those are all human condition . No, it isn't. His dedication and determination is great. But, the thing that draw people towards him is that he neither seeks applause, redemption, not even happiness. He is the silent Knight. Despite the faults, tragedies, misery.. Etc. Bruce still has glimmer of compassion and loveThis was Before allstar superman did it,i believe.

    I have answered this already. I think currently, his flaws are superficial. But, that's my opinions. Let's take your statement as fact, Clark has flaws. As said, does rises above the flaws. He hasn't felt a fall because of that. He doesn't have demons because of those. As if choosing is that easy. Clark doesn't do all of that. He isn't inherently a lazy person nor prideful one. As guy who struggles with laziness. Let me tell you it's not a choice it a freakin discipline. You can't choose a flaw away.It takes vigilance and discipline to curb. Exile might be the only story where he is after some redemption. Even then, he becomes the ideal in that regard. He doesn't kill. What has clark suffered? His planet blew up. Even if he had memories of it as baby. It wouldn't give much attachment. As for being an outsider, that's not suffering. That's like saying being a nerd is such a burden.

    As for pain, bruce does let a pain define him. Like men do, like those who fall down that rabbit hole and can't pull themselves out. For those who don't have the strength. For those people can clark be inspiration? No.Clark just sets the example."if i can do it, so can you". Bruce not only learned to live with the pain and weakness. He uses it to get ahead. For those who are weak like that. That glimmer of real light is more than enough.The community that is brought forward by such weak people is more than the strength clark has.

    He is broken toy and don't have the strength. Can clark reach them? Clark says "you are much stronger than you think". What if you ain't. Here is a guy who ain't. Batman. Yet he still does good. So even a weak person can do good.And the number of weak people far outnumber the strong one's. He instantly becomes a better example.

    Nah! I meant being a lazy depressed bum. Can that guy be that and still be superman?no he can't. Because superman needs to be a saint figure to be the idol. If a person doesn't have the strength to get over laziness or depression(which is big one) he wouldn't be qualified to be superman. So clark as example fails. He has the strength. So he does things. Saitama doesn't. He needs to work with his flaws and control them. Those things don't go away. It isn't choose one time and be done with it thing.
    Which is exactly the grand inquisitors critic. Christ only wants morally strong people. They get to go to heaven. Inquisitor doesn't abandon anyone. He helps them curb their flaws and reach a goal they can get to.He then asks christ to leave and never to return. Because he is an idol is far above the capacity of man to achieve.

    it's like this, There is a superfit dude who is disciplined enough to be healthy and a fat dude who did some things right lost two pounds. For another fat dude(ft2), who will be an example. If he tries to follow the impossible example of fit dude. He is going to get discouraged because the chances that he has strength/will is less likely to keep up with his routine and discipline . If he follows fatdude he can atleast loose two pounds. After he atleast gets there. he can then think of further plans.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-17-2020 at 03:24 PM.

  12. #2562
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    In regard to that JLU clip, a fan on a message board put it best for me when she said that the show's creators basically took Superman's story and molded into Amanda Waller's speech about Batman. But it's the JLU creators, so something like that is sort of to be expected...

    I sometimes wonder if you can make Clark a bit more appealing to the common fan if you made him just, but also a bit trollish and petty. I think Superman II and Man of Steel went a little too far in beating up a jerk or ruining another jerk's livelihood, but something along those lines, a Super practical jokester that only Superman could be. Like if he knew a crooked guy had money buried in the desert but the guy beat the rap, he'd dig up the ill-gotten gains and make an anonymous donation in that sum. Or he'd take all of that guy's fancy cars and flip them upside down. Or he'd steal all of that guy's hired goons' guns, melt them down, and make an insulting statue in his front lawn. He'd continue to harass the guy that way until that guy cracked and confessed to his guilt.

  13. #2563
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Birthright had a few good scenes of that. With the gun dealer and when he dumped the bad guys yacht.

  14. #2564

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    Hello everyone,

    Quote Originally Posted by rpmaluki View Post
    Hasn't Clark written a story where he criticised Superman?
    I would like to think that Clark is always critical of his persona as “The Superman”. Coupled with what I believe is a burden he feels of being “The Messiah” and a longing for the simpler life of a farmer, a husband and a father; I think there are many times where he doubts his effectiveness in sending the message of hope and inspiration out to all of the world; especially when he still sees so much conflict. In spite of Jor-El’s and Jonathan Kent’s guidance on how to use Superman as “an example to inspire” I think he knows that he cannot be everywhere at once and save everyone and to me personally I think he takes it personally himself and that saddens him. But his drive to be the ultimate humanitarian is why Lana and Lois love him.

    Quote Originally Posted by rpmaluki View Post
    You make it sound as if he's never been called out for things but I'm sure he has, because he's not as perfect a saint as he's generally made out to be.
    Yeah, I agree he’s not a perfect saint but he strives for a higher morality because the stakes are high. If he fails in his mission to be humanity’s saviour, then we’ll end up like Krypton.
    Jor-El did say to him “your help would be called for endlessly, it is humanity’s habit to abuse their resources, so merely lead by example”. If he can’t be there to save a life himself whether it be: talking a person out of committing suicide, or rescuing people trapped in a derailed train or helping a family rebuild their home after a tornado, then the positive image of Superman that he spreads would be enough to bring out the best in people, so that we help each other out in his absence. His shield makes us look past our differences and help those in need even if that act of kindness is something as simple as buying someone sleeping on the street a meal, hot tea and shelter.


    Also, Jor-El did tell him explicitly not to get involved in political affairs of the nations of the world; but what makes for interesting story telling, to me, is when he has no choice but to break this rule and take an active role. In the 2nd part of a treatment of the Superman story that I wrote a few years ago, Superman has been able to mediate disputes around the world for some time, so much so that nations that were typically hostile towards each other such as Israel and Palestine, India and Pakistan, Syria, Iran are now working together peacefully and in harmony. They are part of a worldwide collaboration on a joint programme to colonise Mars due to accelerated effects of global warming on Earth. But the soil on Mars needs to be fit for agriculture and farming which Clark knows all too well. Jor-El had intentionally hidden advanced instruments for land irrigation and agriculture in the Phantom Zone, because he knew this day would come for humanity: to leave Earth to find a new home due to environmental problems caused by pollution and rising population. Under Jor-El’s instructions Clark travels to the Phantom Zone to recover these instruments so that he can cultivate the lands on Mars so that we could build homes and grow crops there. Additionally, at the start of my story unbeknownst to Clark, Lex Luthor whose multi-national company is investing resources and funding to the Mars colonisation programme as well as Lex using his hyper intellect (in my story Lex obtained his undergraduate and masters degrees in Mathematics and Physics from Harvard at the age of 11 and his first doctorate in Physics from Harvard when he was 13, and an Engineering doctorate from MIT when he was 15) to get personally involved in the research and development of transporting people to Mars; however Lex has also personally engineered a worldwide financial recession in a bid to seek the presidency of the US. Clark foolishly believes Lex Luthor to be a compassionate humanitarian and writes articles as a journalist to promote him and as Superman, he endorses Lex Luthor for the presidency as an independent candidate and publicly supports him in his campaign and tries to convince the American people that they were voting for a great man. He did so in an effort to move towards relinquishing his place as “The Messiah” and handing that title over to Lex Luthor. This was probably his most devasting mistake; coupled with entering the Phantom Zone to recover the agricultural instruments for us, Clark unwittingly releases the racial supremacist General Zod and his followers on Earth whose intention is to use human beings as slave labour.

  15. #2565
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I miss when Bruce considered Dick and Clark his best friends, with no bullshit "keeping them at arms length" or "uneasy allies" stuff thrown in. I can't believe that seemingly most comic fans prefer the modern take on him. When I first watched BTAS as a kid I loved the character. Then I go read some comics from around the same time or later and I'm like "what the f***? Did I imagine him being a likeable protagonist?" And then I read some old Bronze age issues and I get a take closer to what I first encountered.
    Every character gets exaggerated to an unlikable degree but I really like spicy, prickly, dry Batman. I grew up with late 80s hand me downs and so it was with the Alan Grant and Mike Barr takes.... almost Dredd like. I can see why his popularity skyrocketed (although mostly due to things outside the comics) because while the Bronze Age had great stories from legendary creators, Batman himself was pretty generic outside of maybe Conway, Moench, and Englehart's brighter spots. BTAS like Batman 89 took a route so brilliant it seemed obvious in making him basically a split personality with Bruce.

    Also the same era for Superman to me is where it's at. If Batman is spicy, Superman is a marshmallow covered diamond. Sweet and aloof but as tough as it gets at his core. A great contrast to the increasingly dark comic backdrop. I had a problem for years connecting with Kal-L because since the Earth Two concept they tried making him different (shield and costume quirks, power level, marriage, now he's a cranky old man, etc.) but thanks to Cameron, Schwartz, and later Siegel I came to see him as the same guy just in a Mad Men style era.

    I admit to having rarely seen George Reeves but I imagine a slightly more paternal version of the same.
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