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  1. #2776
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9th. View Post
    Don't know if this controversial or not but Clark vs the Kryptonians in MOS is the best live action fight with superbeings.
    Completely agreed. That movie is the only film to truly capture what a fight with super people would look like.

    I think that's the reason it's polarizing. In the comics we've seen stuff like that tons of times, but live action is far more visceral, and the general public had no idea that sorta thing happens at all. Even the first Thor movie did nothing more than mess up a single street in a small town. The MoS fights aren't inspiring, or glorious. They're scary as f*ck. Accurate, but scary.
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  2. #2777
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    I thought Thanos vs. Hulk was a pretty good fight, though I think Hulk came off a little weak if Thanos could just pry Hulks hands off him that easily. But the speed of the Kryptonian baddies really makes the fight.

  3. #2778
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9th. View Post
    Don't know if this controversial or not but Clark vs the Kryptonians in MOS is the best live action fight with superbeings.
    Destruction porn aside, I have to agree with that. If there were to EVER be a live action again of say, Dragon Ball (by someone that actually KNOWS the source material), that would be a good part to look at for the fight scenes.

  4. #2779
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Our country could really use a well done Golden Age/New 52 style, unapologetic Anti-establishment Superman movie right now. He's more relevant than ever.

    And some "Batman protecting Gotham Citizens from the corrupt police" content now as well.

  5. #2780
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I thought Thanos vs. Hulk was a pretty good fight, though I think Hulk came off a little weak if Thanos could just pry Hulks hands off him that easily. But the speed of the Kryptonian baddies really makes the fight.
    Oh there have been good fights, just not at that high Kryptonian level like MoS.

    Hulk and Thanos is a good brawl, Thor at the end of Infinity War is awesome, Endgame is straight up crazy in the final battle. Tons of great fights in cinema, especially if we include the weaker characters like Captain America (Winter Soldier has crazy badass fight scenes). But none of them really capture the sheer, horrifying power of the characters like MoS does. I mean, Hulk and Thanos should have been ripping through that ship like tinfoil, yknow?

    I really appreciate how Snyder didn't slow things down, which is something he does in a lot of his earlier films that I'm not real big on. His MoS fights had a almost documentary quality to them at times, where the camera moves just a little too slow, wiggles just a little too much. It really made the scenes feel more imminent and impactful, I think.
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  6. #2781
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    For me, the biggest liability for Superman in the comics is that, somehow, someway, just about every modern era has some out-sized inferiority in one or two areas compared to the others - which was partially why something like Superman The Animated Series was arguably better than any of the modern eras of comics.

    The Bronze Age Pre-Crisis was starting to evolve the story ahead, but Man Of Steel had some definitively *better* ideas like Lois as a military brat and the idea of moving Lex into a role where he could be both antagonist and supporting character as businessman, and the idea of returning Clark as Lois’s suitor as compared to Superman... but it’s Brainiac was very bad, and it sacrificed a lot of the good lore work of the Silver Aeg, like Supergirl, clear connections to the Legions of Superheroes, and the Kryptonian elements that were pretty good like Kandor, Argo, and Phantom Zone villains.

    And then DC never really managed to successfully fix those issues, partially because too many creators either would go too soft, or go too hard in regressing towards the Silver Age, and the resulting fight between those elements being reintroduced in a haphazard way was that the comics fell into a self-perpetuating cycle that damaged it.
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  7. #2782
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    For me, the biggest liability for Superman in the comics is that, somehow, someway, just about every modern era has some out-sized inferiority in one or two areas compared to the others - which was partially why something like Superman The Animated Series was arguably better than any of the modern eras of comics.

    The Bronze Age Pre-Crisis was starting to evolve the story ahead, but Man Of Steel had some definitively *better* ideas like Lois as a military brat and the idea of moving Lex into a role where he could be both antagonist and supporting character as businessman, and the idea of returning Clark as Lois’s suitor as compared to Superman... but it’s Brainiac was very bad, and it sacrificed a lot of the good lore work of the Silver Aeg, like Supergirl, clear connections to the Legions of Superheroes, and the Kryptonian elements that were pretty good like Kandor, Argo, and Phantom Zone villains.

    And then DC never really managed to successfully fix those issues, partially because too many creators either would go too soft, or go too hard in regressing towards the Silver Age, and the resulting fight between those elements being reintroduced in a haphazard way was that the comics fell into a self-perpetuating cycle that damaged it.
    Even Lex moving into that role could have been done in the pre-COIE continuity without much tweaking.

  8. #2783
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Even if they could smoothly transform Lex into being twenty years older, that would have missed the entire point. kinda sounds like saying Marvel could have gradually integrated the ultimate versions. It wasn't about making things different but "new" so that you would know everything about the characters by jumping in to what was then current.

    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    I mean in the sense that the death of the Waynes is the general motivation for Bruce becoming Batman and is what keeps him on target. For Superman he has the general injustice of the world as a motivation point but the inclusion of this farm stuff has tried to twist the character so that behind all of the Superman stuff is a guy that wants to go back to the farm and be "normal" and the writers are driven to get him back there. I think a lot of modern writing struggles to not see the world through the Batman tilt and doesn't believe a guy like Superman would have that much dedication without a backstory full of misery.
    That works under the assumption that the story is about a guy who is a reluctant hero wishing he could go farm instead. I don't know what to tell you, it's not the interpretation of people who write or enjoy the character. I literally have never seen anyone say that, it's a puzzling thing to assert. Since 1945 the farm has basically just existed so that he can leave it behind and be Superman because he wants to be.

    If anything I think the "Batman lens" would involve tragedy and guilt as motivation.


    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    When did i say it needed to be about powerlevel? Dbz guys get beat up,badly.Violence has an impact there. Thor got roughened up in his movies. Hulk bleeds as well, in green. See, blood helps audiences feel the impact of attacks being effective. Here there was none. Audience don't get any visual ques of that. Resisting something doesn't mean you are impervious to it. Moreover, if zod is resistant to physical harm. Superman punching with physical for minutes on out was of no point. So, really a boring fight.
    Looks like I was reading your criticism wrong. But I mean I wouldn't say "no point," as letting Zod pummel him vs not letting Zod pummel him had different outcomes. The chaos that ended up getting frowned upon was part of the point, that even if Superman wasn't really losing the battle the collateral damage was the point of the war. The Macguffin was literally designed to just smash out the word, so the big fight smashing the city apart was a bigger dilemma than his immediate well being.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Oh there have been good fights, just not at that high Kryptonian level like MoS.
    It's a guilty pleasure, because Superman had the same type of destruction as the Avengers did the year before, but by being one guy and lacking humor it just made him look tougher. New Hire Superman looked more intense than the built up Avengers put together imo.
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  9. #2784
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Even if they could smoothly transform Lex into being twenty years older, that would have missed the entire point. kinda sounds like saying Marvel could have gradually integrated the ultimate versions. It wasn't about making things different but "new" so that you would know everything about the characters by jumping in to what was then current.
    It's not important for Lex to be 20 years older. For all intents and purposes, it's not a tidbit that has stood the test of time anyway, they mostly treat them as around the same age even in contemporary versions that borrow from the Byrne setup (like STAS).

    Writing a new, easy jumping on point without ditching previous continuity while also conveying a new, easy to understand status quo can't be that difficult for a talented creator. Especially as the Superman/Lex rivalry was already well established. It really was about making things new *and* different. That was the whole point of the exercise, to throw out the old and bring in Marvel readers.

  10. #2785
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    That fact that he was Perry's peer, father of Perry's son even, was just as important as him being Clark's peer in the takes before and after that.

    As it's been famously said, after so many years these stories need an enema. That was what the reboot did, and I don't think anyone was surprised that the reboot got rebooted because it was done for the same reason. Almost any creator with the desire and legroom could figure out how to revamp without a reboot (Byrne's original idea), but yeah, that wouldn't really bring in people like the Marvel readers who had half the back issues to deal with and considerably less contradictory, convoluted messes to sort through. It's not like they didn't reboot their whole line and straight up get rid of the guy who was Flash altogether.
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  11. #2786
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    That fact that he was Perry's peer, father of Perry's son even, was just as important as him being Clark's peer in the takes before and after that.

    As it's been famously said, after so many years these stories need an enema. That was what the reboot did, and I don't think anyone was surprised that the reboot got rebooted because it was done for the same reason. Almost any creator with the desire and legroom could figure out how to revamp without a reboot (Byrne's original idea), but yeah, that wouldn't really bring in people like the Marvel readers who had half the back issues to deal with and considerably less contradictory, convoluted messes to sort through. It's not like they didn't reboot their whole line and straight up get rid of the guy who was Flash altogether.
    It was important for a few stories I guess, but I wasn't even aware that the bolded was a thing. But that kind of just proves that him being Perry's peer isn't that important or stood the test of time as far as Lex's broader history goes. Like I said, even takes that borrow from Byrne's setup like STAS or Secret Origin leave that tidbit behind, it evidently hasn't left much of an impression of being useful for subsequent creators.

    The reboots and the reboots of the reboots contribute to things being convoluted, I guess the DCU would seem more convoluted at that time compared to Marvel. But compared to post-COIE, I actually find pre-COIE much easier to follow (and much easier to follow than late 80s/90s Marvel). That was sort of always the scapegoat at the time to justify the direction, but it was really doing something flashy to catch attention. Which worked and was needed, but I can't help wondering if a new #1 with a creative overhaul would have been sufficient. That worked for New Teen Titans, it started with a new #1 and became their biggest book and didn't require a reboot. But it also didn't require an encyclopedic knowledge of previous TT runs, all you needed to know going in was who the original 5 and especially Robin were, and that was easy.

  12. #2787
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Secret Origin was like an attempt to restore the pre crisis ideas with some modern dressing. Lex was deliberately half this, half that. Frankly some of it was like a weird reshoot of Birthright. STAS as a cartoon streamlined almost everything as a general rule. BTAS, XMAS (lol), Spider-Man ... they all condensed a ton of ideas both liked and unliked because they're good at that.

    Lex spent years as a rival to Perry and then spent years as his own slightly benevolent Australian son. This guy decides to get his hair back and fake an accent for at least months in story without even breaking character when Superman died. It really wasn't insignificant. But I was trying to say it was also not the sort of thing immune to being written out. Byrne didn't kid himself into thinking that his changes would stand forever and resist the same fate as the stuff that came before it. All of that old stuff he spent the back matter of his first issue to gushing over. Not sure how things went with the ultimate Marvel architects but it was the same boat: eventually you're at the point where years of intertwining stories have locked out new readers.

    To be perfectly honest I have never read Titans pretty much ever, but I know it's as you say with retaining the character history up to that point and the ensuing popularity. Makes it weird that they didn't Batgirl it across the board I guess.
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  13. #2788
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Oh there have been good fights, just not at that high Kryptonian level like MoS.

    Hulk and Thanos is a good brawl, Thor at the end of Infinity War is awesome, Endgame is straight up crazy in the final battle. Tons of great fights in cinema, especially if we include the weaker characters like Captain America (Winter Soldier has crazy badass fight scenes). But none of them really capture the sheer, horrifying power of the characters like MoS does. I mean, Hulk and Thanos should have been ripping through that ship like tinfoil, yknow?

    I really appreciate how Snyder didn't slow things down, which is something he does in a lot of his earlier films that I'm not real big on. His MoS fights had a almost documentary quality to them at times, where the camera moves just a little too slow, wiggles just a little too much. It really made the scenes feel more imminent and impactful, I think.
    I'm going into an abstract concept here, but one thing about the MoS fights that I don't think resonates well with audiences is that it moves so fast that it practically has to invent its own physics because people just aren't used to seeing objects that size move so fast. If Thanos lifts Hulk over his head and smashes him to the ground, maybe not everyone has seen that before, but likely their brains know how to process it and interpret whether it's a reasonable interpretation, based on references such as boxing or WWE. I still think MoS is the best, but because there's no real reference you could use to determine if the fights feel authentic, it's hard to enjoy on the same level I did Thanos and Hulk.

  14. #2789
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Our country could really use a well done Golden Age/New 52 style, unapologetic Anti-establishment Superman movie right now. He's more relevant than ever.

    I don't know about that... I just read an article where a guy was talking about how a cop almost killed him. Apparently, they were responding to abusive situation where the man was beating on his self proclaimed 'baby mama' and he's upset about brutality and the cops 'violating his rights'....

    My first thought reading that was remembering all the conversations people are having about Golden Age Superman throwing wife-beaters through walls... and wondering exactly who's side he'd have been on in that situation. I really REALLY don't want Superman or Batman used as a club to stir people up. I want some nice escapism in my fictional worlds.

  15. #2790
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Destruction porn aside, I have to agree with that. If there were to EVER be a live action again of say, Dragon Ball (by someone that actually KNOWS the source material), that would be a good part to look at for the fight scenes.
    If people were relishing in the destruction then i believe it would have been shot differently with different context. Unlike dbz guys who want to fight main guys, superman villains don't. They want to take apart the world. So, yeah! There will be no going to desert or moon. These guys will come right back.Destruction is inevitable. Moreover,its taken from source material.
    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I don't know about that... I just read an article where a guy was talking about how a cop almost killed him. Apparently, they were responding to abusive situation where the man was beating on his self proclaimed 'baby mama' and he's upset about brutality and the cops 'violating his rights'....

    My first thought reading that was remembering all the conversations people are having about Golden Age Superman throwing wife-beaters through walls... and wondering exactly who's side he'd have been on in that situation. I really REALLY don't want Superman or Batman used as a club to stir people up. I want some nice escapism in my fictional worlds.
    It's simple really. Superman will do what he thinks is right. He is an antidote to power based violence. And goldenage superman made plenty of goofups. Its just that he is always on his toes. So he quickly makes things right if he could. He doesn't mope around all day for taking an action or reacting to fix it.

    In the scenerio you presented. If superman sees the guy beating the woman. He is gonna throw him into the wall. Later on, if/when he finds out full context of the situation and if he feels the guys was defending himself. He would make amends with the dude. He would see to it that the guy gets justice in regards to the matter of the woman.He is a vigilante, not exactly the "good" guy.So,that kind of thing is to be expected . Moreover, nobody says this stuff about the masked spider or bat menace.Of how spiderman or batman should be "escapist" fantasy . Yet, they are.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 06-01-2020 at 12:55 AM.

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