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  1. #2011
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    But originally, he was superstrong even as infant, as seen his very first appearance. I don't like football thing, and I do like powers immediately, despite some issues it brings up (mostly because I like the Kents knowing what they were signing up for when they adopted him). He did exercise to stay trim in the old days, though. That's when we first saw his Secret Citadel.
    There was a Mr. and Mrs. Superman story where the Earth 2 Metalo (that's how it's spelled in the book) robbed him of most of his strength and he had to "work out" to get it back at the citadel. That was kind of weird.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  2. #2012
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Haha I was thinking of that earlier. I really liked it but the general idea of Superman working for his powers misses the point.
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  3. #2013
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    I always assumed that Clark got his muscles from effort.
    To a degree he does. Clark would be super strong without ever putting any effort in, but he does still exercise to increase his strength, though it doesn't seem to be part of his daily routine. We've seen that with Mongul before Our Worlds At War and after the Helspont fight, among other examples.

    It's basically the reason Clark is stronger than Kara (and no matter what some Supergirl writers try to say, Clark's got the feats to prove he's stronger). They'd have the exact same strength level except for all the extra exercise Clark has put in over the years.
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  4. #2014
    Amazing Member Crabble's Avatar
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    I wish Martha Kent and Lara had as much of a presence in Superman stories just like Jonathan Kent and Jor-el do.

  5. #2015
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Haha I was thinking of that earlier. I really liked it but the general idea of Superman working for his powers misses the point.
    No, it doesn't. He has potential and gift, a better learning curve. But, shouldn't mean he is above rolling up his sleeve. Even gifted people need to work. Otherwise, they stagnate and time catches up. As a strongman clark should be an inspiration for people to get fit in a healthy manner. You know, get of the couch.

  6. #2016
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Health is kind of irrelevant when you don't need to eat or breathe. I think the idea of trying to credit Superman with effort regarding his powers, not his determination, works against itself as an argument to establish him among those who think he has it easy. That way lies... Mythbrawl. There are preconceived notions that damage his reputation, but they are rooted in some genuine impression, so I'd rather turn into those to work them out head on instead of try to steer him in a direction that sounds more appealing but tends to lead people to think of other characters first.
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  7. #2017
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    I think you could split the difference on the two ideas of working for/and not working for his powers. Yeah he has natural gifts that make him faster, stronger, more durable and has all of that the second he runs through yellow sunlight. But the constant toil of pushing himself and his abilities forces those powers to kind of evolve and grow. Kind of like how X-Ray vision use to melt stuff as well as see through things but eventually became xray vision and heat vision.

    It'd be the basis of Superboy or some kind of Superboy-like period in Clark's youth where he's constantly taxing himself; not in a bodybuilding/weightlifting way but in a way where he keeps pushing himself to help people in more daring and dangerous ways but just barely makes it out alive and the next day he wakes up he's a little bit faster, stronger, etc. Gravity defying leaps become sustained instances of flight, gradually can see more bands of the light spectrum, the range of what he can he hear begins to increase. So in a way one of his powers would be to become more powerful as needed but not necessarily WHEN he needs it.

    It would also make the scenario of the Legion coming back in time to take Superman on adventures all the more interesting since they would be unintentionally helping to train one of the greatest heroes of the 20th/21st century. If it were up to me they wouldn't even really know they were doing it either and would just think they're helping out some alien with few friends marooned foreign planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crabble View Post
    I wish Martha Kent and Lara had as much of a presence in Superman stories just like Jonathan Kent and Jor-el do.
    I agree. I don't like how small Martha and Lara seem in greater Superman cosmology. They're always afterthoughts.
    Last edited by The World; 01-05-2020 at 06:30 AM.
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  8. #2018
    Incredible Member SuperCrab's Avatar
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    I've probably already hit on my love for New52 Superman and the idea of a 1950s R-Rated Mad Men type Superman that both brings back old Super-stuff that is anarchistic in the modern world (telephone booths, fedoras, cheesy catchphrases) and also is edgy in that it is R or MA rated (I actually think the latter would have an audience if it were outside mainstream continuity or on "Earth 50" or something. Put it under the DC Comics Black Label imprint for more adult stories or something. It'd be, in some ways, the Superman equivalent of Frank Miller's "The Dark Knight". I realize Miller has done a similar Superman series, but I mean this less literally than that- an influential out-of-continuity book that both incorporates old stuff no longer in use and also does stuff that's controversial that will eventually work it's way into the mainstream series years later in watered down form and influence everyone's "head canon" of who Superman is.). I've probably also mention that the Rebirth Superman was my least favorite incarnation of Superman and that I don't think Jon should have gotten the focus he had or been used in battles at a young age (Though the Bendis take on the Reborn Superman is an improvement- and improves Jon by aging him up, and then shipping him off to Legion comics I don't have to read.). So, I'll skip those beyond the brief mentions.

    The below aren't reboot ideas (Though some might require a reboot), just a list of somewhat controversial Superman opinions:

    - I don't really like Ma and Pa Kent as living characters the adult Superman interacts with except in very limited ways. I think it's generally better when they are gone- either "off-camera" and rarely referenced, or dead. I'm not saying this because that was the New52 status quo, it's what I prefer in general. Living adopted parents he's constantly talking to kind of infantilizes the character and doesn't add anything to the creative end of things. They aren't terribly interesting characters in and of themselves, it's the influence they had *raising* Clark Kent that matters and shapes his character and allegiance to earth, which means it's just important that they *were* there, not that they *are* there. Really, other than going to them for advice, which anyone could offer, the only obvious storyline with them is that a villain could hold them hostage or harm them as leverage against Superman, which there are other characters that could be used for.

    By contrast General Lane works for me as a character because the influential American General who disapproves of Superman, who in his civilian guise is a close friend, boyfriend, or husband of Lane's daughter (Lois) actually adds something in stories set during Superman's adult years. Even a character like that who is not Lois' father would be interesting to play around with and would serve an on-going purpose in the Superman universe, and that he's Lois' father makes him even better.

    - I don't really like the Superboy concept in general- whether it's a young Clark Kent, Connor Kent, or Jon Kent. When it's Clark, there's an obvious issue that people should be able to figure out in-universe, which is that "for some reason" Superboy was based out of Smallville, the small town Clark grew up in, and then "for some reason" Superboy leaves Smallville and Superman shows up in Metropolis when Clark does those things. I realize there are plenty of sort of mandatory suspension of disbelief things where we have to pretend that people shouldn't be able to figure out Clark's secret identity when it would be obvious if we weren't reading a comic book, but that's one more of them that, unlike some of the others, doesn't seem all that necessary.

    That said, I should be clear that I have no issue with Connor Kent as a character (Frankly, I've only seen him in crossovers and such). I don't really know his character well enough to have an issue. It's just that I'd prefer they design these characters as adults. In the timelines where he's a clone, he could be aged up and released from Cadmus at age 18 or 20. They also might consider a different public superhero name, which could have ties to Superman and a costume with the family crest, but was it's own thing (Like how Dick Grayson became Nightwing when he grew up and moved on from being Robin).

    I don't like Robin either- conceptually, as a young sidekick to Batman, that is. I'm not anti any of the particular characters who've used that name.

    - I don't like Superman as a somewhat authoritarian paternal figure.

    - I do like a Superman who's intimidating because he's strong and powerful, and bad guys don't know what he's going to do next. Glowing eye staredowns, grabbing people by the labels and shoving them up against a wall, dangling them out windows, etc..

    - The social justice crusader aspect of the Superman character should be more emphasized.

    - Ideal age for Superman is 22-32 IMO.

    - Clark should drink, date, and hang out with friends more. I've often said I like the idea of aging up Jim Olson a bit for that purpose (Hanging out at bars with Clark and chasing women together) and making them peers. However, they could also (or instead) invent a friend (or a group fo them) for him at the Daily Planet, or even have him fly off as Superman, change back into Clark Kent garb, and hang out with Bruce Wayne in Gotham. Maybe he came to Metropolis with a group of friends from school looking for jobs in the city and they still hang. He could also be at least be a casual sports fan- Byrne had him playing quarterback in high school IIRC.

    - Superman should brood more.

    - Kat Grant belongs at the Daily Planet. I understand why they put her and Jimmy Olson in National City at "KatCo" on the Supergirl television show- that makes sense, since if the characters aren't with Supergirl, they aren't regulars on the show. However, the comic books don't have to do that.

    - I don't consider Lois Lane as important to the Superman mythos as some comics have outright stated she is. I think that it's important that she me in the books, but what I would do is have her be the woman of Clark's dreams, and his co-worker, but someone he considers unobtainable (Which has often been the status quo) or someone whom it wouldn't be wise to pursue for whatever reason (Fear that she'd reveal his secret identity, fear that they'd date and break up and he'd lose her as a friend if they want to portray her as churning through men, not wanting to risk putting her in danger unnecessarily, HR policy against dating co-workers, etc.), and have both date other people frequently. Then, for a while, they could date and break up, and then date again. Only towards the end of the a "reboot cycle" would I actually have Lois and Clark marry, and then things would start over in a bit.

    - The best Superman/Action Comics illustrations are pseudo-realistic (At least to a point), not the overly cartoony ones.

    - The trunks should go (Again.). They are outdated as a concept- no Clark Kent born in the 80s or whatever would add trunks to symbolize his strength like carnival strong men from a full century prior to him becoming Superman, and very few in the fictional world he inhabits would get that reference either. They just seem like underwear on the outside- which is something only a character that was trying to draw attention to that area of his body or sexualize the costume would do, which isn't Clark's character. I would only use trunks in comics that were period pieces in eras where it'd make sense that he has them.

    I realize that most fans love the trunks, that's what makes it a controversial Superman opinion (Titled of the thread). However, in addition to not really making sense in the fictional universe Superman lives in given his likely birth year, they actually are something the general public who aren't specifically Supermen fans don't like either- that's why the current movie Superman doesn't have trunks.

    - No more origin stories. Put at least a 10 or 20 year moratorium on them. They have been a gazillion of them and I am sick of them. Any reboots should start with Superman in Metropolis (They could have him start with a more limited power set working at the Daily Star or trying to get a job if they want to, that'd be alright. Though I'd just throw him into the status quo they want him to have instead, personally.) and have him reference his past only briefly on an as-needed basis. There have been way too many Supermen origin stories that are broadly similar- last son of Krypton, adopted by human parents, grew up on a farm in a small town- we get it already. It's reached Batman movie flashbacks to Batman's parents being killed proportions.

    - Don't be afraid to have multiple Supermen in different universes. Put them in different books to appeal to audiences who like different visions of Superman, with people who just want to read any Superman story buying multiple books. I mean, they don't need to be ridiculous and put out a ton of on-going books with half a dozen Supermen, but they could do a Superman for the main DC universe and a second with a monthly on-going from an alternate universe and, to avoid confusion of any kind, the costumes would be kind of different, and the traditional blurb that describes who Superman is at the beginning of each issue could be careful to point out that the alternate universe Superman is not from the main DC universe or the same Superman featured more generally. They could either hand the Superman book to one of them and Action Comics to the other, or create a new third book for the alternate universe Superman.

    Marvel's been pretty successful with two Spider-Men.
    Last edited by SuperCrab; 01-07-2020 at 01:30 PM.

  9. #2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    No, it doesn't. He has potential and gift, a better learning curve. But, shouldn't mean he is above rolling up his sleeve. Even gifted people need to work. Otherwise, they stagnate and time catches up. As a strongman clark should be an inspiration for people to get fit in a healthy manner. You know, get of the couch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Health is kind of irrelevant when you don't need to eat or breathe. I think the idea of trying to credit Superman with effort regarding his powers, not his determination, works against itself as an argument to establish him among those who think he has it easy. That way lies... Mythbrawl. There are preconceived notions that damage his reputation, but they are rooted in some genuine impression, so I'd rather turn into those to work them out head on instead of try to steer him in a direction that sounds more appealing but tends to lead people to think of other characters first.
    Superman's creators stole so much else from Doc Savage, why not one more? A lot of The Man of Bronze's exercises involved advanced isometrics. Why couldn't Superman do an exaggerated version of something similar? Imagine everybody seeing Clark sitting at his desk, working, not realizing he's straining his muscular his psychokinetic capabilities to their limit, with attention to spare for his day job.

  10. #2020
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Haha, funny you should mention desk exercise


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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post

    It'd be the basis of Superboy or some kind of Superboy-like period in Clark's youth where he's constantly taxing himself; not in a bodybuilding/weightlifting way but in a way where he keeps pushing himself to help people in more daring and dangerous ways but just barely makes it out alive and the next day he wakes up he's a little bit faster, stronger, etc. Gravity defying leaps become sustained instances of flight, gradually can see more bands of the light spectrum, the range of what he can he hear begins to increase. So in a way one of his powers would be to become more powerful as needed but not necessarily WHEN he needs it.

    It would also make the scenario of the Legion coming back in time to take Superman on adventures all the more interesting since they would be unintentionally helping to train one of the greatest heroes of the 20th/21st century. If it were up to me they wouldn't even really know they were doing it either and would just think they're helping out some alien with few friends marooned foreign planet.
    Superboy is a good example in that for all the time he spent, any other Kryptonian in the same circumstances caught up to him very quickly. Not that I necessarily agree with more than two or three existing. But I love Kara and I think the silver age Supergirl possibly could have developed faster if not for his training, haha.

    It seems like he builds up in some ways and I do think experience is a huge part of the character that a lot of people overlook (most Kryptonians, going back to that example, learn quickly because they see him doing all these things he's figured out) but he's still a young Superman at his least. He can put on a costume at eight years old and make it work. He will be Superman in the British countryside, Soviet Russia, the martian dune, or the pits of Apokolips. Meanwhile Daredevil fought for everything, Scott Summers needed Xavier to become Cyclops, etc. Even the Wayne money was an abstract power until Bruce put his mind to the mission. Superman looks worse the closer you put him to a category like that.

    The Legion... eh. I don't care if Superman is the first hero or not, but he's no protege. If someone goes in that direction I guess that's the best choice, but it also makes the story messy and less main character centered imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCrab View Post
    .I don't really like the Superboy concept in general- whether it's a young Clark Kent, Connor Kent, or Jon Kent. When it's Clark, there's an obvious issue that people should be able to figure out in-universe, which is that "for some reason" Superboy was based out of Smallville, the small town Clark grew up in, and then "for some reason" Superboy leaves Smallville and Superman shows up in Metropolis when Clark does. I realize there are plenty of sort of mandatory suspension of disbelief where we have to pretend that people shouldn't be able to figure out Clark's secret identity when it would be obvious, but that's one more of them that doesn't seem all that necessary.
    I never understood the idea of putting him in continuity myself. Whenever they did it I'm guessing was in a long ago point where the month to month stories didn't even matter to each other. So getting rid of him was easy and made things easier, but still annoyed people because that was a thing they were given and had taken away.
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  11. #2021
    Fantastic Member magha_regulus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crabble View Post
    I wish Martha Kent and Lara had as much of a presence in Superman stories just like Jonathan Kent and Jor-el do.
    ABSOLUTELY! I'm right there with you! In my mind Martha is where he might get his open-mindedness from; and Lara is where he gets his man of action traits from, especially since she was an astronaut.

  12. #2022
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    The Man of Steel movie barrows quite a bit from Superman: Earth One.......but it doesn't actually borrow enough.

    I think Man of Steel would've been a far, far stronger work --maybe even great-- if it had been far more focused in its borrowing from Earth One, and had left out all of Birthright's influence almost completely.

    The objective should've been to take and greatly improve on Earth One's modern take. I'd have gladly taken the Earth One inspired idea that Clark was ready to find the job that would net him the most money to make sure his mom is comfortable over the Birthright inspired hobo/drifter stuff. Far more compelling and humanizing, and gives us more time in the city with what were supposed to be our supporting cast. A really good example of where this pays off is with Lois and Jimmy saving Superman from the red sun gravity ray. Man of Steel takes the idea of that scene and uses it as an opportunity to look like a video game for 15 minutes, and expect us to care about Jenny what's-her-face. The whole concept of the "leap of faith" is actually far better payed off by having Clark show himself, get put in a life or death situation, and get saved by two normal people.

    And as hamfisted and dry as it ends up being, Earth One at least addresses the aftermath and destruction with the sumbag guy Clark almost worked for when it was all about the money. Funny enough though, Clark gets on his high horse about how people are hurt and need help, but all he ends up doing is buying new clothes and getting a job by interviewing himself, so that's still funny. But at least I can imagine he helped clean up given how strongly he seemed to feel about it.

    I say all of this as someone who legitimately hates Earth One as a work, but it's head and shoulders stronger and more focused of a piece than Man of Steel.

    Probably should've gone with Brainiac rather than who-gives-a-f#&k Magee from Earth One or Zod though. That way if you absolutely had to do Superman killing, then you have that moment with fleshy Brainiac, and also bring him back later as a robot and a haunting of when Clark was truly back into a corner (something they just totally gloss over with Doomsday in BVS even though we were told him forming "the why" of the no killing rule would be important after MOS). You'd essentially get to adapt the pathos of Exile later on with the return of Brainiac.
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  13. #2023
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Health is kind of irrelevant when you don't need to eat or breathe. I think the idea of trying to credit Superman with effort regarding his powers, not his determination, works against itself as an argument to establish him among those who think he has it easy. That way lies... Mythbrawl. There are preconceived notions that damage his reputation, but they are rooted in some genuine impression, so I'd rather turn into those to work them out head on instead of try to steer him in a direction that sounds more appealing but tends to lead people to think of other characters first.
    Health, might not be relevant to superman. But, it is relevant to people. At the end of the day he is a character that needs a draw. And all versions of the character doesn't have the above abilities. Even gods need to effort get better. Even darkseid is looking for something . Superman is just a man. No, I am not talking about having clark try to emulate rocky or goku. But, there needs to be something that isn't "i sun bathed for an hour and got stronger". For me radiation can be his food source,and just that. He is an action hero,at the end of the day. Action heroes need their physical training. Its just something that helps people relate.The character is supposed to be a cut above the rest. Not cut above effort and work itself. Everyone has to work, Even the likes of athletes and scientists. They can find unique training methods that accentuates the characters individuality and not have the audience be reminded of other characters. But, this notion that superman is above work and effort is something i find strange. The character was meant to break limits and chains.


    for example, I feel superman's training would be something that helps him adapt to different environments and also challenges his intelligence and problem solving capacity . He as kid had to adapt to earth's gravity, atmosphere, more strengthened radiation ... Etc.Astronauts needs constant work to keep their bone density, muscle strength and such. I would have ma bring baby clark to his ship when he gets sick or have breathing problem.my superman ship would be essentialy nanotech that can break apart and create a room for an adult. Kelex would be installed within the ship.

    Something like this above.
    This causes clark to live essentially two vastly different worlds. This would be Clark's inspiration for a training method that challenges him.So,i would have clark training be something like a survival challenge. He challenges himself with surviving in harshest of worlds even planet that can't sustain life. He does this to not only challenge himself. But, to find the extent to which life can exist in the universe. He looks to the stars for finding hope. This will help in his quest to make a true city of Metropolis city of tomorrow. He will be able to find new medicines, find creatures with antibodies to diseases and use the for cure on earth, antibiotics, energy efficient and methods to survive that will be taught and be available to others on earth. I can even see doomsday being something clark comes across as a survivalist clark kent gone wrong.

    For me(head canon) , clark shouldn't be guy sitting around. I see clark creating a perception of that with his disguise though . I don't see lois lane getting attracted to a guy like that. Superman should be on his foot, always as a journalist he should be out there looking for the most obscure stories around the world and universe. He would be protect the currently weak as one of them with strength. As an explorer and as a scientist he would find different ways to solve earth problems.As a physical specimen he challenges himself in the harshest worlds. I see the fortress/citadel as the first stage of superman's city of tomorrow project. Metropolis will be the last.

    Something never sat right with me. Lex works for himself. And clark doesn't work at all. Sure, he save the day. It's not very challenging for him and he doesn't seem to solve problems. But, that's to be expected due to the episodic nature of comics.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 01-06-2020 at 11:19 PM.

  14. #2024
    Mighty Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    I think Jordan Peele's "Us" was inspired by Bizarro and the Bizarro Universe. The first word of the Bizarro Code is literally "Us". Is there a Bizarro Appreciation thread? I know this is not necessarily controversial.

  15. #2025
    Amazing Member Crabble's Avatar
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    Someone else said it somewhere else, so this take isn't really mine.
    I really like the concept of Superman|Clark holding certain beliefs and having hobbies indicative of whatever decade he's currently in. That way he learns different things, depending on the theme you want to tackle.
    (any influence from his parents, friends or peers is noted)

    I really want a version who grew up with the internet (2000's-2010's) and may hold fond or indifferent memories/opinions in regards to using it. Maybe it's relevant to a mystery involving social media or a throw-away line about his childhood. Dunno.
    Last edited by Crabble; 01-07-2020 at 11:14 AM.

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