Controversial Superman Opinions

[Ascended]

Agreed.

We can't judge the quality of Silver Age comics against modern sensibilities without a ton of intersecting factors. The era, the audience, the culture, it was all wildly different from what we know today, and comics aren't structured the same way, or written for the same demographics.

But there's more imagination in the smallest part of the pre-Crisis mythos than post-Crisis was able to muster up in its first ten years. I'm not knocking on post-Crisis, don't get me wrong, I still hold the triangle era up as an example of how to do comics right. It might be the tightest world building Superman has ever seen. But post-Crisis tried so hard to bury the silly aspects of the Silver Age under a mountain of contemporary grounded reality, that almost all the fun and the fantastical nature of Superman got buried with it.

I myself can't understand why anyone would prefer the rather boring and common mythos of post-Crisis, which could have belonged to virtually any hero, over the wild and creative world of pre-Crisis Bronze and Silver Age. And I've said many times that losing that "champion of the people" mentality of the Golden Age was a huge loss for the character.

Modern sensibilities I can understand wanting over the dated writing of the Silver Age. But what's one of the most celebrated Super-stories of today? All-Star, and that was pure Silver Age Superman, right down to its DNA.

[Yoda]

I don't think Silver Age storytelling, even in the All Star vein is sustainable in ongoing continuity. You can do self contained narratives, but that is not what "comic fans" want generally. A DCU built on All Star would likely fall into the same traps that any other modern era has. It all collapses under its own weight eventually.

That said, the new TPB model is somewhere where that could work. And seems to be the direction things are going.

[Flash Gordon]

I don't think Silver Age storytelling, even in the All Star vein is sustainable in ongoing continuity. You can do self contained narratives, but that is not what "comic fans" want generally. A DCU built on All Star would likely fall into the same traps that any other modern era has. It all collapses under its own weight eventually.

That said, the new TPB model is somewhere where that could work. And seems to be the direction things are going.

I guess that's why main title Superman is always getting stuck being dull and slavish to the fanbase, while Fraction/Lieber's Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen and Morrison/Quietly's All Star Superman rise to the top of the pile.

I do really like Bendis' current stuff though. I think it is the best that could possibly be done with the modern Superman and his status quo.

[Yoda]

I guess that's why main title Superman is always getting stuck being dull and slavish to the fanbase, while Fraction/Lieber's Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen and Morrison/Quietly's All Star Superman rise to the top of the pile.

I do really like Bendis' current stuff though. I think it is the best that could possibly be done with the modern Superman and his status quo.

I think looking at Morrison's All Star against his Action Comics kinda illustrates that point. As the cracks in the later start to show. I think Superman in particular is more susceptible to this than other characters. All his best stories are usually outside of any ongoing continuity or are origins.

Jimmy Olsen is great. But is it sustainable beyond Fraction and Lieber? And if they gave a sh!t about it fitting into continuity would they be able to tell that same type of story? I think it's probably a no to both those points.

EDIT: And to comment on your second point about Bendis, look at what all the conversation is on the latest issue of Superman, there's like 4 pages of discussion about "Why is Harley Quinn at the Hall of Justice?" It's continuity obsession getting in the way of storytelling.

[SiegePerilous02]

Agreed.

We can't judge the quality of Silver Age comics against modern sensibilities without a ton of intersecting factors. The era, the audience, the culture, it was all wildly different from what we know today, and comics aren't structured the same way, or written for the same demographics.

But there's more imagination in the smallest part of the pre-Crisis mythos than post-Crisis was able to muster up in its first ten years. I'm not knocking on post-Crisis, don't get me wrong, I still hold the triangle era up as an example of how to do comics right. It might be the tightest world building Superman has ever seen. But post-Crisis tried so hard to bury the silly aspects of the Silver Age under a mountain of contemporary grounded reality, that almost all the fun and the fantastical nature of Superman got buried with it.

I myself can't understand why anyone would prefer the rather boring and common mythos of post-Crisis, which could have belonged to virtually any hero, over the wild and creative world of pre-Crisis Bronze and Silver Age. And I've said many times that losing that "champion of the people" mentality of the Golden Age was a huge loss for the character.

Modern sensibilities I can understand wanting over the dated writing of the Silver Age. But what's one of the most celebrated Super-stories of today? All-Star, and that was pure Silver Age Superman, right down to its DNA.

Preach. As for the bolded, I think post-Crisis would often go to insane lengths just to avoid the simple (if silly) explanations of the Silver Age. Yeah, Supergirl being Superman's cousin is awfully contrived, but it's easier to get across and build a foundation off of than convoluted stuff like pocket dimensions and angels, which just reads as insane in hindsight.

I don't think Silver Age storytelling, even in the All Star vein is sustainable in ongoing continuity. You can do self contained narratives, but that is not what "comic fans" want generally. A DCU built on All Star would likely fall into the same traps that any other modern era has. It all collapses under its own weight eventually.

That said, the new TPB model is somewhere where that could work. And seems to be the direction things are going.

May be for the best really. I think all the ongoing narratives for the major characters in both companies have more or less run out of gas. And usually just results in continuity headaches, derailments and/or filler just to get some stuff out on the shelves. And I think characters like Superman in particular fit the TPB model than ongoing serialized soap opera formats. That works better for Marvel, and even they can't always keep it interesting.

[Yoda]

May be for the best really. I think all the ongoing narratives for the major characters in both companies have more or less run out of gas. And usually just results in continuity headaches, derailments and/or filler just to get some stuff out on the shelves. And I think characters like Superman in particular fit the TPB model than ongoing serialized soap opera formats. That works better for Marvel, and even they can't always keep it interesting.

I more or less agree with you. I hope we get more of the older middle school age Superman books in the vein of Smashes the Klan out of this line. The younger skewing Superman of Smallville was great for little kids. And the upcoming Lois Lane book looks good to, and looks to skew a smidge older than that. But so far they haven't really hit the older age group that the Harley, Raven, and Black Canary books fill. It's all good stuff, and generally way more entertaining and satisfying to read than the ongoing or even Black Label stuff.

[Flash Gordon]

I think looking at Morrison's All Star against his Action Comics kinda illustrates that point. As the cracks in the later start to show. I think Superman in particular is more susceptible to this than other characters. All his best stories are usually outside of any ongoing continuity or are origins.

Jimmy Olsen is great. But is it sustainable beyond Fraction and Lieber? And if they gave a sh!t about it fitting into continuity would they be able to tell that same type of story? I think it's probably a no to both those points.

EDIT: And to comment on your second point about Bendis, look at what all the conversation is on the latest issue of Superman, there's like 4 pages of discussion about "Why is Harley Quinn at the Hall of Justice?" It's continuity obsession getting in the way of storytelling.

I'll out myself as someone who loves Morrison's Action Comics, but yeah I agree. Once it starts to be forced into the typical status quo it begins to show signs of wear and tear. It wants Superman to be new and exciting but ultimately has to concede to whatever nonsense was going on in Superman and Justice League.

Jimmy Olsen is so good, but nah it 100% isn't sustainable. It is Fraction and Lieber's baby completely. Which is fine by me because it has such authorship and identity to it, but imagining DC having Dan Jurgens or whatever try to follow it up gives me terrible anxiety.

I'm no fan of this current Superman's status quo. Hated the amalgamation of New 52 and Rebirth Superman. I thought it was the most navel gazing nonsense ever, but man oh man is Bendis able to actually make this whole thing work and seem like all that never happened. I love the world building. It doesn't knock my socks off or anything, but it is solid storytelling for a character who prolly hasn't had that since Morrison left.

Continuity shouldn't be ignored completely but you should never be chained to it.

[Sacred Knight]

Frankly at this stage I'd love getting rid of strict continuity altogether. Just tell standalone tales for the most part wherever, whenever they want with whatever status quo they want to tell it in. Where does this take place? Somewhere in the multiverse, whatever, moving on to the tale. But I'm also aware that by and large that does not appear to be what the DC audience wants and it probably would not work. Hell, putting aside how poor the DCYou was in its own right, just the tagline of "story over continuity" pissed people off. It wasn't even true, the continuity was still tight and early on it was clearly obvious it was just a line, but I got the distinct feeling the majority didn't like even hearing it.

[SiegePerilous02]

"Continuity over story" can be kind of depressing depending on what continuity beats we're talking about.

[Kuwagaton]

Agreed.

We can't judge the quality of Silver Age comics against modern sensibilities without a ton of intersecting factors. The era, the audience, the culture, it was all wildly different from what we know today, and comics aren't structured the same way, or written for the same demographics.

But there's more imagination in the smallest part of the pre-Crisis mythos than post-Crisis was able to muster up in its first ten years. I'm not knocking on post-Crisis, don't get me wrong, I still hold the triangle era up as an example of how to do comics right. It might be the tightest world building Superman has ever seen. But post-Crisis tried so hard to bury the silly aspects of the Silver Age under a mountain of contemporary grounded reality, that almost all the fun and the fantastical nature of Superman got buried with it.

I myself can't understand why anyone would prefer the rather boring and common mythos of post-Crisis, which could have belonged to virtually any hero, over the wild and creative world of pre-Crisis Bronze and Silver Age. And I've said many times that losing that "champion of the people" mentality of the Golden Age was a huge loss for the character.

I can only speak for myself sure, but even if my favorite property is Superman I can't imagine a world where Herbie, Spider-Man, FF, Thor, even Hawkman (and probably other Fox runs) and the newspaper adaptations aren't better reading experiences. The former aren't just my little hang ups at least because they're strong enough to live with newer generations in ways that the old Superman can't.

All Star gets credit for All Star, but I'm sorry to say I think people who buy the archives based on that are likely to be disappointed. Like Byrne's biggest weakness imo, the storytelling just over explains and deflates the majority of the wacky fun.

If the late 80s to late 90s material is dated I can see it, but that's what happens any way in time to some degree. Years from now I'm not sure the New 52 won't look like pre flashpoint just the same to younger people of the time. I think that material is revered though because it subverts its peers so well. Maybe I'm more about it because I have a taste for newspaper style serials and less dramatic running plots though

I don't know how controversial this is, but, in retrospect, I think Morrison should have done his Action Comics run in the self contained, one-off style of All Star Superman.

There's probably some controversy in that not continuing and profiting from Morrison's arc would be utterly insane. But really it wouldn't even have been the first time they continued with something out of continuity for sheer reverence. At least we'd have the option to separate it from the follow ups more cleanly.

[Ascended]

I don't think Silver Age storytelling, even in the All Star vein is sustainable in ongoing continuity. You can do self contained narratives, but that is not what "comic fans" want generally. A DCU built on All Star would likely fall into the same traps that any other modern era has. It all collapses under its own weight eventually.

That said, the new TPB model is somewhere where that could work. And seems to be the direction things are going.

No, it's likely not sustainable. At least not in the way we usually think about this medium and how it is supposed to function.

But I wonder, is that a good thing? Just look at the responses here; All-Star, Smashes the Klan, all these self-contained stories that are celebrated and loved....and then there's the main continuity. Even when the main titles are well done (from a technical skill standpoint) there's still a ton of complaining because it's not what people want personally, and because it's "the main continuity" there's expectations there that, given the width of tastes in the fandom, DC cannot possibly meet.

Yet look at All-Star. I've seen people who don't care for the Silver Age gush over that story. I've seen people who don't care for the Golden Age talk about how great Smash is. People who hate post-Crisis love American Alien. Why? Because these aren't "main continuity" and therefore get to be their own thing, not what Superman "should" be. They're free from being "definitive" and, therefore, are most often the stories that define the IP.

Perhaps we need more of that, and less emphasis on "main" continuity.

[Vordan]

No, it's likely not sustainable. At least not in the way we usually think about this medium and how it is supposed to function.

But I wonder, is that a good thing? Just look at the responses here; All-Star, Smashes the Klan, all these self-contained stories that are celebrated and loved....and then there's the main continuity. Even when the main titles are well done (from a technical skill standpoint) there's still a ton of complaining because it's not what people want personally, and because it's "the main continuity" there's expectations there that, given the width of tastes in the fandom, DC cannot possibly meet.

Yet look at All-Star. I've seen people who don't care for the Silver Age gush over that story. I've seen people who don't care for the Golden Age talk about how great Smash is. People who hate post-Crisis love American Alien. Why? Because these aren't "main continuity" and therefore get to be their own thing, not what Superman "should" be. They're free from being "definitive" and, therefore, are most often the stories that define the IP.

Perhaps we need more of that, and less emphasis on "main" continuity.

Well that is basically the whole thought process beyond BL. Let the best creators tell stories with the characters without having to worry about continuity crap. Aside from Damned and Year One I’ve enjoyed it, just wish we had more Superman standalone projects that weren’t origin stories.

[Flash Gordon]

Frankly at this stage I'd love getting rid of strict continuity altogether. Just tell standalone tales for the most part wherever, whenever they want with whatever status quo they want to tell it in. Where does this take place? Somewhere in the multiverse, whatever, moving on to the tale. But I'm also aware that by and large that does not appear to be what the DC audience wants and it probably would not work. Hell, putting aside how poor the DCYou was in its own right, just the tagline of "story over continuity" pissed people off. It wasn't even true, the continuity was still tight and early on it was clearly obvious it was just a line, but I got the distinct feeling the majority didn't like even hearing it.

I can get behind that. Superman isn't a character who benefits from strict status quo shanagins anyway. I just want to read good stories and do not really care about how they all fit. If they can fit, that's really rad- but it doesn't have to be the norm. Having Superman be part of a nuclear family across all interpretations is sketchy and restricting.

[Flash Gordon]

Well that is basically the whole thought process beyond BL. Let the best creators tell stories with the characters without having to worry about continuity crap. Aside from Damned and Year One I’ve enjoyed it, just wish we had more Superman standalone projects that weren’t origin stories.

Same, I dug YEAR ONE but I'm over the origin story.

[Ascended]

I can only speak for myself sure,.

Oh, same here. I'm not speaking for anyone but me.

And yeah, people who bought a Silver Age archive because of All-Star didn't get what they expected. Like I said, it's hard to compare then and now; stuff is so different. And we're talking Morrison. His Superman work stands as some of the very best and it's unfair to compare him to average runs (of which that was like 99% of the Silver Age); you gotta start throwing out names like Maggin to make it a fair fight.

Well that is basically the whole thought process beyond BL. Let the best creators tell stories with the characters without having to worry about continuity crap. Aside from Damned and Year One I’ve enjoyed it, just wish we had more Superman standalone projects that weren’t origin stories.

And so far a lot of the Black Label stuff has been fantastic. I even enjoyed Year One. If that was the main continuity origin I'd be pissed as hell, but as a one-off Black Label thing? It's kinda fascinating, and once you dig under all the Miller-isms it actually says a few interesting things about Clark. And that's what I mean with all this; when it's not main continuity, it seems like people enjoy it more.