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  1. #4456
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    “Superman can’t … Superman isn’t… Superman shouldn’t …” , it does feel like that some times.

  2. #4457
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    A large number of the criticisms of Post-Crisis Superman are rooted in toxic masculinity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    “Superman can’t … Superman isn’t… Superman shouldn’t …” , it does feel like that some times.
    The opposite happens far more often to an arguably way more obnoxious degree.

  3. #4458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    “Superman can’t … Superman isn’t… Superman shouldn’t …” , it does feel like that some times.
    Yeah, I just don't understand how the concept of impossible became so real to characters like Superman and Wonder Woman. These characters were suppose to do great things and change the world but it all seems so far out of their reach now.
    Rules are for lesser men, Charlie - Grand Pa Joe ~ Willy Wonka & Chocolate Factory

  4. #4459
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    I have no problem looking at Superman as a relic of privilege and systems of oppression.

  5. #4460
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    Yeah, I just don't understand how the concept of impossible became so real to characters like Superman and Wonder Woman. These characters were suppose to do great things and change the world but it all seems so far out of their reach now.

    I see Superman as more of a bugs bunny or Popeye character and that might be out of date. People want more realism and that kills a character like Superman that is all wish fulfillment, well to some extent. At his best I think Superman pulls off myth, science fiction, and unblemished goodness.

  6. #4461
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    More concretely than unblemished goodness (which after all depends on how you define "good"), I feel Superman at his core is more rooted on the desire to smash injustice.

  7. #4462
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    Superman is a warehouse for storytelling. He can be vain, weak, overly matched or petty. More and more I think he works best as a host for different stories like the Spirit or the Sandman. The 70s stories with the Supersons, they seemed to be all about, “What if Superman’s son was a disappointment?”

  8. #4463
    Kon-El "The Scion" SuperX's Avatar
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    Jeez, with fans like this ugh
    Where is my damn Tactile Telekinesis?
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  9. #4464
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    A large number of the criticisms of Post-Crisis Superman are rooted in toxic masculinity.
    Such as?

    Because I don't think that's the case at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    I see Superman as more of a bugs bunny or Popeye character and that might be out of date. People want more realism and that kills a character like Superman that is all wish fulfillment, well to some extent. At his best I think Superman pulls off myth, science fiction, and unblemished goodness.
    Yeah, he works better as a cartoon/mythic character that doesn't really adhere to realism. They tried to Marvelize him in the 80s and it worked at the time because they wanted Marvel fans to read him, but it didn't help him long term. Marvel is/was great at the specific things it does and trailblazed, but it shouldn't be freely applied to everything. I think straight up cartoon style or more experimental European style comic storytelling suits him more. Like some 2000AD stories, basically the same flavor Morrison and Sharp brought to Green Lantern.

    Wonder Woman got hit with the relatively more grounded approach (at least compared to her old school stuff) post-Crisis with a narrowed focus on Greek myth. While that has created it's own share of hiccups for her, Greek myth is at least still fucking cool. So she has a lot of neat stuff to fall back on compared to Superman and his mythos being toned down.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 07-31-2021 at 11:31 AM.

  10. #4465
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Such as?

    Because I don't think that's the case at all.



    Yeah, he works better as a cartoon/mythic character that doesn't really adhere to realism. They tried to Marvelize him in the 80s and it worked at the time because they wanted Marvel fans to read him, but it didn't help him long term. Marvel is/was great at the specific things it does and trailblazed, but it shouldn't be freely applied to everything. I think straight up cartoon style or more experimental European style comic storytelling suits him more. Like some 2000AD stories, basically the same flavor Morrison and Sharp brought to Green Lantern.

    Wonder Woman got hit with the relatively more grounded approach (at least compared to her old school stuff) post-Crisis with a narrowed focus on Greek myth. While that has created it's own share of hiccups for her, Greek myth is at least still fucking cool. So she has a lot of neat stuff to fall back on compared to Superman and his mythos being toned down.
    I'm curious about this too.

    I've liked what I've read of post-Crisis Superman, it makes up the majority of my Superman reading. I would be down for the direction you describe.
    Last edited by Hizashi; 07-31-2021 at 11:34 AM.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  11. #4466
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    my controversial opinion is that dc is not interested in writing good superman stories. for dc it is more profitable to have superman as an icon, in this way superman continues to sell, not as much as if he had good comics, but it makes up for it by being the easy-to-use tool to enlarge the rest of the universe, what better publicity for a character than defeat, be better, be stronger than superman.

  12. #4467
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Probably because he sold far better than she did for a long time. And, frankly, he was the the trendsetter for Superheroes in his era. That is a big deal.
    That has to do with the fact that she never got the chance to have the same level of media push and support. Even though first WW run was also a trendsetter in some ways and sold well. But they have never put the same effort into her lore as batman and superman. You can't expect hits to happen by miracle. You need to invest in them.

  13. #4468
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaVi View Post
    ww has no chance because in 80 years, outside of comics, only 2 things have imported.
    1: lynda carter's ww.
    2: gal gadot's ww.
    Superman even at his worst is 10 times more recognized than any DC character (except Batman).
    SM has had plenty of flops and yet they never stopped giving him chances. WW has never been given the same opprtunities to expand, even after having hits like the 70s TV show or her 2017 film. 2 different context. Very different.

  14. #4469
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Such as?

    Because I don't think that's the case at all.



    Yeah, he works better as a cartoon/mythic character that doesn't really adhere to realism. They tried to Marvelize him in the 80s and it worked at the time because they wanted Marvel fans to read him, but it didn't help him long term. Marvel is/was great at the specific things it does and trailblazed, but it shouldn't be freely applied to everything. I think straight up cartoon style or more experimental European style comic storytelling suits him more. Like some 2000AD stories, basically the same flavor Morrison and Sharp brought to Green Lantern.

    Wonder Woman got hit with the relatively more grounded approach (at least compared to her old school stuff) post-Crisis with a narrowed focus on Greek myth. While that has created it's own share of hiccups for her, Greek myth is at least still fucking cool. So she has a lot of neat stuff to fall back on compared to Superman and his mythos being toned down.
    That is not true at all. Superman still gets treated far better and so does his lore. WW and her ''cool'' greek myths lore is condstantly taking lower places on the DC chart. And WW has been toned down far more than SM. You can not look at her performances nowadays and tell me she is not a shadow of her former self. She is super fragile nowadays.

  15. #4470
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    That has to do with the fact that she never got the chance to have the same level of media push and support. Even though first WW run was also a trendsetter in some ways and sold well. But they have never put the same effort into her lore as batman and superman. You can't expect hits to happen by miracle. You need to invest in them.
    Female superhero and all.She was still following a trend.She didn't end an era and start another.That's what a trendsetter is.So,nowhere near superman.Batman wasn't ever a trendsetter.heck!original in any regards. I would say.
    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    SM has had plenty of flops and yet they never stopped giving him chances. WW has never been given the same opprtunities to expand, even after having hits like the 70s TV show or her 2017 film. 2 different context. Very different.
    This i agree.Superman failed and has only put out mediocre stuff when it comes to larger demographics and audiences..WW has been far more successful.
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