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  1. #2866
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Nah! It depends on the interpretation. Besides, you were saying it wouldn't take away much. It does take away something significant ergo the need/want of others to have it.

    There is a difference between having uncertainty still jumping in head first and being bogged down by it. Original superman was of the former kind. He is a rootin-tootin son of a gun.Superman is about making supermen. Here it's supermen creating superman.
    Pa asks him to hide his strength. Clark realises he is right. He creates a secret identity and still jumps in head first into action with smile on his face. Superman with ridiculous strongman suit, hairstyle and smile is a celebration of the individuality of the character. That doesn't mean he doesn't feel alienated. It means he just learned to cope with it by using a smile. he needs to be the champion to cope with the situation. Incidentally, that's what the world was looking for. A champion who defends from bullies and corrupt powerfull. Well, as pointed out if he is not the first or known hero. He would be following footsteps. Not facing uncertain future head on because of instinct and then make it part of who he is with choice.He would be just doing something that has precedent. That isn't much of existential moral choice. It's more of a career move.
    I don’t think the idea of creating a secret identity is all that important and the notion that Pa Kent warning him off helping people isn’t exactly a popular one. Plus you get the same issues from him being an alien and revealing that to the people. We just saw that used in Smashes the Klan to amazing effect actually. Arguably, that is a far more relevant and impactful angle than being the first superhero.

  2. #2867
    Spectacular Member witchboy's Avatar
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    I have a theory that a few years down the line when the current status quo of no secret identity has played out, Superman, and probably Lois and Jon, will get new secret identities.
    Superman taking on a new secret identity, maybe say a cop instead of a reporter, would be new ground to tread.

  3. #2868
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I don’t think the idea of creating a secret identity is all that important and the notion that Pa Kent warning him off helping people isn’t exactly a popular one. Plus you get the same issues from him being an alien and revealing that to the people. We just saw that used in Smashes the Klan to amazing effect actually. Arguably, that is a far more relevant and impactful angle than being the first superhero.
    I don't particularly care for popularity. Also, pa didn't just warn him off helping people. He just asked him to help when right time came. How and when are upto clark. There is nothing that suggests that the kents would approve of the character's use of violence . Unlike the nonsensical portrayals where superman is just a naive puppet for either of his parents. There is a reason superman is made into a villain.He is like Griffith if you read berserk. The white knight who goes rotten. Why? White knights don't exactly have good track records. It sucks and that ain't superman. A champion is created through his own gritt and determination. The later portrayals don't have a champion. Also, Being an alien and choosing vigilante violence. Good way for making a name for the Kryptonians. Just saying. Finally, superman smashes the klan is written primarily to appeal to kids. That's alright in that format. Superman isn't treated like a vigilante. It's basically silverage transition.Also, i find parents advocating or enabling for vigilante behaviour that too based on violence rather despicable.Unlike jon where the kid was in legit danger, superman's parents have no excuse. They are just shitty.
    Moreover, i wasn't saying superman needs to be first. I am saying that it being no big deal is false.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 06-06-2020 at 06:45 AM.

  4. #2869
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Real world events revolving around the characters' status do not have to justify their in-universe paths. This is why Batgod is still a thing; creators make decisions based on who is more popular out of universe than what actually makes sense in universe.
    Except this is a blanket statement, and you can't compare everything as if it was the same all the time. Batgod is an exaggeration that has gained traction and didn't have any in-universe history behind it before it took off.

    What about Superman being the first superhero or at least among the first group while also being the most popular/powerful at the time doesn't make sense to the point it disrupts any narrative? Again, for 50 years this was the case both in-universe and out of universe, they went hand in hand. This isn't being pulled from thin air unless people are under the impression the character didn't exist before John Byrne.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    If Superman is the great character he is, then I don't see what not being the first does to harm him. It's like insisting that Spider-Man be retconned into being the founding member of the Avengers because he's more popular than every one of them.
    Except Superman being among the first heroes and a peer to the JSA was retconned out. This was not an outside-context case of popularity shaping the stacking order of characters in universe, the in-universe stories created the perception themselves. Just because Superman and Spider-Man were the respective most popular characters of each company at a certain time doesn't mean everything about their set up is the same. That's why they are different characters.

  5. #2870
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Superman 2000 needs to be reworked for today, with the basic ideas of the original pitch intact. Instead of Myx being responsible for all the changes though, I'd make it a huge cosmic battle, bringing back Kismet and Dominus as the major players that Superman is caught up in.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  6. #2871
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    I have a theory that a few years down the line when the current status quo of no secret identity has played out, Superman, and probably Lois and Jon, will get new secret identities.
    Superman taking on a new secret identity, maybe say a cop instead of a reporter, would be new ground to tread.
    Hard pass on that. He has occasionally been a firefighter, in Morrison’s Action and Superman Beyond, but I don’t know how I feel about that. I prefer him to be involved in writing in whatever job he takes.

  7. #2872
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I rather doubt they'll go the new identity route. Outing the ID has already been very poorly received. Following it up by putting a facsimile back but basically saying Superman still can't be Clark and now Lois can't even be Lois would probably be a really tone-deaf move. A storyline like that is something you maybe try far removed from any other status quo shakeups. Considering this run over the past year and a half or so has been nothing but shock-value shakeups, its would just be so the wrong time.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "“Your boos mean nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer!”

  8. #2873
    Incredible Member Gaius's Avatar
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    I generally don't care for Alan Moore's Superman stories, in particular "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?".

  9. #2874
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Since, we are talking about moore. I don't know if it's controversial or not. Despite having the same themes such as dreams, freedom, search for truth and attempt at grasping or understanding idea of justice, justice and its relationships to authority/power, legitimacy of authority , wisdom to know it's ultimately a "laugh tale" or "imaginary story" ... Etc. Why does the story of Superman feel paper thin compared to one piece? Maybe it's because superman is a neverending soap opera.That never had a definitive domain or concept with beginning, middle and end. But,still.

    Anyways, I just wish someone would finish the story of goldenage superman or make a definitive story with start, middle and end that stays true to that specific characterisation. You know, "whatever happened to the man of action" type of deal.

  10. #2875
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    I have a theory that a few years down the line when the current status quo of no secret identity has played out, Superman, and probably Lois and Jon, will get new secret identities.
    Superman taking on a new secret identity, maybe say a cop instead of a reporter, would be new ground to tread.
    Good God in heaven, no.

    He's been a fireman before, I think that suits him. Plus the schedule would fit him (24 hours on, 72 off).
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 06-06-2020 at 01:37 PM.

  11. #2876
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Superman as a cop would an alien version of robocop.Kryptonite and lex.

    It would be funny to see superman go from a vigilante to a cop

  12. #2877
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I generally don't care for Alan Moore's Superman stories, in particular "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?".
    For me his handful of Superman stories check out but the reputation people have created for him I find stuffy and unappealing. Makes me reluctant to comb through dry and dusty meta for a deeper meaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Since, we are talking about moore. I don't know if it's controversial or not. Despite having the same themes such as dreams, freedom, search for truth and attempt at grasping or understanding idea of justice, justice and its relationships to authority/power, legitimacy of authority , wisdom to know it's ultimately a "laugh tale" or "imaginary story" ... Etc. Why does the story of Superman feel paper thin compared to one piece? Maybe it's because superman is a neverending soap opera.That never had a definitive domain or concept with beginning, middle and end. But,still.

    Anyways, I just wish someone would finish the story of goldenage superman or make a definitive story with start, middle and end that stays true to that specific characterisation. You know, "whatever happened to the man of action" type of deal.
    It's unfortunate that there's so little overlap on the two series when it comes to fans. I really love both a whole lot as my very favorites in comics. Funny enough I'd describe OP that way as a single ongoing melodrama instead of an anthology of one off stories and continuities vaguely centered around "one" character. 980 issues of Action? A good half lost to time, scores of them entirely unrelated to each other. The opposite in that sense.

    The things Oda is good at are consistent if not usually improving across the series. But he can't offer the variety of completely different people over a much longer span of time.

    Including multiple endings. Tom King, Dorfman, Moore, Gerber, Maggin, Bates and others have done finite stories on top of alternate realities. Of course the pay off doesn't come close to what you get from telling one coherent story.
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  13. #2878
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Superman as a cop would an alien version of robocop.Kryptonite and lex.

    It would be funny to see superman go from a vigilante to a cop
    I've always wanted to see a Paul Verhoeven SUPERMAN flick. Robocop and Starship Troopers are 2 of my favourite movies.

  14. #2879

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    So about Alan Moore Superman, Man who has everything is a perfectly decent story and everything. But at the same time, you could probably replace Superman with just about any other protagonist and all you’d have to do is just have to tweak what the Black mercy fantasy it a is. And odds are you wouldn’t really lose much. I mean everyone has something they want but can never have. I get that it’s purpose was to challenge the perception that Superman really does have it all. But my point still kinda stands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Good God in heaven, no.

    He's been a fireman before, I think that suits him. Plus the schedule would fit him (24 hours on, 72 off).
    Makes me wonder why I can’t think of any prominent superheroes with that as a day job, particularly ones who historically tend to go from Job to job like Hal Jordan, Peter Parker or Dick Grayson.

  15. #2880
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    So about Alan Moore Superman, Man who has everything is a perfectly decent story and everything. But at the same time, you could probably replace Superman with just about any other protagonist and all you’d have to do is just have to tweak what the Black mercy fantasy it a is. And odds are you wouldn’t really lose much. I mean everyone has something they want but can never have. I get that it’s purpose was to challenge the perception that Superman really does have it all. But my point still kinda stands.


    Makes me wonder why I can’t think of any prominent superheroes with that as a day job, particularly ones who historically tend to go from Job to job like Hal Jordan, Peter Parker or Dick Grayson.
    I’m actually not sure what your point is exactly lol. Is it just that a famous story could’ve been told with anyone? That’s pretty common, Kraven’s Last Hunt started out as a Batman story before being used for Spider-Man. Mark Millar gave some of his Superman 2000 ideas to Quesada to use in OMD. FTMWHE works best for Supes, especially Pre-Crisis Superman, because Superman usually wears a mask of perfection that hides his inner turmoils and desires. Batman’s fantasy for example was something we didn’t need an alien organism to dig up, he wants his parents back.

    Seeing Superman try to kill Mongul was powerful. It was the first time we saw his “red eyes” mode I believe. To see a guy who seems to be perfect and have everything suddenly exposed as someone with an overwhelming loneliness and sadness to him is what elevated the story above other typical “hero in a fantasy world” stories.

    Of course what was groundbreaking and powerful then is route and cliche now. Supes spends half his time walking around with red eyes and gnashing his teeth.
    Last edited by Vordan; 06-06-2020 at 03:32 PM.

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