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  1. #3556
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    As far as the multiple attempts to get rid of the secret identity, i feel like in hindsight it'd work better if both "Truths" were sorta merged together. Like the new 52 version was the one that happens, where it wasn't Clark's choice and it kinda ruins his life and all his friends lives. But after doing the reborn thingy, don't restore the secret id, and have him work to make a more positive future for himself and his friends/family.
    I don't know, i still don't really approve. Its like having Batman get over his ptsd from losing his parents, like yay character development but now you're stuck with a less interesting character as a result, so booooo!
    Batman fans would disagree with you on that. In fact, a lot of them hate how writers keep mining his parents' death.

  2. #3557

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Batman fans would disagree with you on that. In fact, a lot of them hate how writers keep mining his parents' death.
    I'm sure some vocal fans are, but if people wanted a well adjusted Batman more, then Nightwing sales would be higher. And i like Nightwing, and hell I'm open to stories that try to resolve Clark's identity crisis, I'm just saying there's a danger of characters losing their edge.
    Last edited by OpaqueGiraffe17; 11-12-2020 at 08:41 PM.

  3. #3558
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    I'm sure some vocal fans are, but if people wanted a well adjusted Batman more, then Nightwing sales would be higher. And i like Nightwing, and hell I'm open to stories that try to resolve Clark's identity crisis, I'm just saying there's a danger of characters losing their edge.
    This is literally the thing that infuriates me about mainstream comics: they are way too static.

  4. #3559
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    As far as the multiple attempts to get rid of the secret identity, i feel like in hindsight it'd work better if both "Truths" were sorta merged together. Like the new 52 version was the one that happens, where it wasn't Clark's choice and it kinda ruins his life and all his friends lives. But after doing the reborn thingy, don't restore the secret id, and have him work to make a more positive future for himself and his friends/family.
    I don't know, i still don't really approve. The duality adds so much depth to the character, I just don't think its worth it. Its like having Batman get over his ptsd from losing his parents, like yay character development but now you're stuck with a less interesting character as a result, so booooo!
    I'm in agreement that Superman's duality adds depth to his character, but I could do with much less PTSD and general unhealthiness from Bruce.

  5. #3560
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    I'm sure some vocal fans are, but if people wanted a well adjusted Batman more, then Nightwing sales would be higher. And i like Nightwing, and hell I'm open to stories that try to resolve Clark's identity crisis, I'm just saying there's a danger of characters losing their edge.
    Nightwing isn't Batman. The reasons for his low sales are a lot more complicated not to mention he hasn't been well adjusted for a long, long time now.

  6. #3561

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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    This is literally the thing that infuriates me about mainstream comics: they are way too static.
    i guess, illusion of change and all, i kinda strayed from my original point, which was taking a development/change that I really am open to, but think both attempts were iffy (but with merit) and take the best from both, it might have been great for the character and his stories.
    Last edited by OpaqueGiraffe17; 11-12-2020 at 09:20 PM.

  7. #3562
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    If the likes of Gamora, Star-Lord, Drax, the Fantastic Four, Rocket Raccoon, Adam Strange, Vril Dox and Mr Miracle could have cosmic stories then it is inaccurate to claim post-crisis Superman was too weak for cosmic stories.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 11-18-2020 at 11:15 PM.

  8. #3563
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    If the likes of Gamora, Star-Lord, Drax, the Fantastic Four, Rocket Raccoon and Mr Miracle could have cosmic stories then it is inaccurate to claim post-crisis Superman was too weak for cosmic stories.
    You know, I honestly wonder what people think cosmic stories are sometimes.

    Whenever I read them, they often feel overinflated.

  9. #3564
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    If the likes of Gamora, Star-Lord, Drax, the Fantastic Four, Rocket Raccoon, Adam Strange, Vril Dox and Mr Miracle could have cosmic stories then it is inaccurate to claim post-crisis Superman was too weak for cosmic stories.
    I think what they want is high concept cosmic stories in the like of war of gods or something a kin to space opera. I don't know, but I quite curious. Is there anyone who read comic said Superman is too weak for cosmic stories when he is that strong? I mean dude fight against Darkseid, Apocalypse, Brainiac, Zod, and Mxylptk. If those are not cosmic stories, I don't know what it is and if those are weaks then Green Lantern must be a street level superheroes if those assholes can demolish them.

  10. #3565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laufeyson View Post
    I think what they want is high concept cosmic stories in the like of war of gods or something a kin to space opera.
    Most of the characters I mentioned are often featured in such stories and are nowhere near as powerful as pre-crisis Superman.

  11. #3566
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Most of the characters I mentioned are often featured in such stories and are nowhere near as powerful as pre-crisis Superman.
    Yeah, that's why I kind of confused at your remark. If Superman is too weak then what is the standard power level for a cosmic character? But to be honest we better use post-crisis Superman as discussion, because using pre-crisis is a bit... too overwhelming?

  12. #3567
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laufeyson View Post
    Yeah, that's why I kind of confused at your remark. If Superman is too weak then what is the standard power level for a cosmic character? But to be honest we better use post-crisis Superman as discussion, because using pre-crisis is a bit... too overwhelming?
    Let me explain. Post Crisis Clark was too weak to have casual cosmic adventures. He couldn’t hold his breath long enough or fly fast enough to be flying off to distant planets every week or so. That doesn’t mean he couldn’t have cosmic adventures, one of my favorite Post Crisis Superman stories is Exile where he goes off into space and ends up fighting on Warworld, I love that story! But something like that wasn’t something Superman could do often, and I think that limitation didn’t really add much. But others might say that limiting Supes cosmic adventures helps make those adventures feel special and have more weight which is a fair argument. I personally love stuff like Bendis’ current arc where he’s flying off with Synmar into unknown regions of space. I think that’s exciting and opens up more stories.

  13. #3568
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Let me explain. Post Crisis Clark was too weak to have casual cosmic adventures. He couldn’t hold his breath long enough or fly fast enough to be flying off to distant planets every week or so.
    Wait isn't this already broken through his training with Mongul the Second during Our World at War? Where after that issue he started to realize that he just need a yellow sun to live or something like that. Beside I believe there are many issues in Post Crisis after that where he flew from planet to planet. I think I remember that it's clear that he can hold his breath long enough (or he just doesn't need it) to fly from Earth to Oa through the Red Sun of Krypton (Rao) in Infinite Crisis.
    Last edited by Laufeyson; 11-19-2020 at 10:09 AM.

  14. #3569
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laufeyson View Post
    Wait isn't this already broken through his training with Mongul the Second during Our World at War? Where after that issue he started to realize that he just need a yellow sun to live or something like that. Beside I believe there are many issues in Post Crisis after that where he flew from planet to planet. I think I remember that it's clear that he can hold his breath long enough (or he just doesn't need it) to fly from Earth to Oa through the Red Sun of Krypton (Rao) in Infinite Crisis.
    Yep OWAW is Loeb, and that’s where the Post Crisis Superman starts morphing into the Pre-Flashpoint Superman. Just like how the Pre-Crisis Superman encompasses the Golden, Silver, and Bronze Ages, but each incarnation has some major differences from one another, the Byrne Post Crisis Superman eventually gave way to the Pre-Flashpoint Johns/Busiek Superman. The Pre-FP was explicitly about merging the Pre and Post Crisis incarnations together, that’s why I consider him separate from Byrne/Jurgens’ take. His power levels got boosted and he became more like his old incarnation. The process started under Loeb & Kelly but reached its peak under Busiek & Johns imo.

  15. #3570
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    The process started under Loeb & Kelly but reached its peak under Busiek & Johns imo.
    I think the process started with Jurgen and Morisson, where Morisson write him as Red and Blue Superman that he can move a planet, live in space, and tango with angel.

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