Controversial Superman Opinions

[Ascended]

And in that case, he should generally whip a Zod more about often than not. Being in the military in and of itself is not an advantage in a fight because usually hand to hand skills are either irrelevant or infrequently used without the individual emphasis, which Zod doesn't really have. We're talking about the average tenured officer who lives like a fugitive versus a guy who's learned and practiced his unique form of combat for years and uses them on a regular basis, with countless resources at his disposal. Zod should only be able to win a fight after negating those other advantages.

Assuming the Kryptonian military was like our's, then physical one-on-one combat wouldn't be a big focus, but do we know enough about them to say either way?

There's also the difference between the institution and the man. Maybe it's unfair to say Zod's a good fighter because of his military experience, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't learn from somewhere.

Zod's gotta have something to balance things out and provide a high level challenge for Clark. Zod's supposed to be one of the rogues who makes Clark crap his pants a little because he's so dangerous and hard to defeat, and if Clark's got a lifetime of experience with his powers and the way they influence combat, then Zod has to have something to balance out that advantage or he's not nearly as much of a threat. I think Zod being a skilled fighter with a lot of natural talent provides that, and allows him to adapt to having powers quickly.

Totally agree about Faora too. I feel like she could be the Shiva of the Super-verse but everyone forgets she exists, or writes her as a henchman.

[DochaDocha]

Maybe it's unfair to say Zod's a good fighter because of his military experience

Then let's just say he's the son of a general so that's why he's an expert H2H fighter.

I'm usually a stickler for nitpicky details, but I'm quite okay with just saying Zod is a trained and experienced killer. I think audiences and readers will get that right away without having to question it to the annoying degree I normally would. As for how Superman beats him, I think Superman II, albeit a bit sloppy in execution, handled it pretty well. Don't get into a fistfight with three guys on your level. But if it did come down to a fistfight, I think it's key just to emphasize that if they fight Kryptonian Queensbury rules, Zod is the heavy favorite. Superman's not going to win with superior technique. Generally, we assume Superman isn't stronger or faster, so he's going to win with guile (like in Superman II or grit, or likely some combination of the two. I think this is one aspect where Man of Steel really failed. What good is it that Zod gives Superman the sick burn about learning to fight on a farm, but then loses a pretty straightforward brawl?

In regards to Intelligent Doomsday, I think one of the few clever things they did with the character was that he became just smart enough to understand the concept of fear, so when he remembered that Superman was capable of killing him, he lost his edge in the fight. The bad news for an ongoing, though, was that either it breaks Doomsday forever, or you have to undo it.

[Alan2099]

I've always thought of Superman's fighting style as being more like a good old fashion country brawler as opposed to anything more disciplined. While he can do some fancier stuff, his instinct is to go in and start swinging. This is a guy that learned how to fights by getting into fights not by any training. He does something, sees if it works or if it doesn't, and goes from there.

He's far more John Wayne than Bruce Lee.

[Johnny Thunders!]

I think Clark fighting with Kung Fu is just overkill and a bit silly, but I think he probably knows martial arts from Ancient Greece to New Genesis. I think saying he doesn't know how to fight is saying he is bad at his job or he can't learn. My feeling is, he goes into a fight most of the time trying to contain, disarm, and dismantle by any means necessary.

Lex Luthor in one of the Maggin novels (or maybe it was a Moore comic, was it All Star Superman?) mentions that he's no boy scout, and if you fought him, you soon realize that. I think Superman can get away with just punching stuff most of the time but that's the straight line that solves the problem.

For me, he can fight just like he can move or see, he does it on another level. With Zod, yeah, he can fight and would be a terror, on Krypton he probably studied the Galaxy and throughout time, almost a Science of Warfare. But Kal has to fight literal gods of war. Just a thought, I know Zod can show up just in Phantom Zone Grays, but Zod will armor up and bring weapons. Kal shows up cape and tights and ready to go.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

There is only one thing a kryptonian needs to know about karate. Eye lasers beat karate, everytime.
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[Ra-El]

Hmm, never really considered it in that sense so I guess it would make sense he’d decide as a responsible hero he’d have to learn to fight to quickly take care of people at his level.

Guess it could also provide an interesting story opportunity for who ever he trains with. Wonder Woman was suggested above and I guess that could be an interesting way to develop their friendship. Martian Manhunter maybe or his time with the Legion like you said.

One thing I really want for Superman is for the character stand on his own. If he need to be trained don't make some other hero his master, no WW, Batman or Martian Manhunter, let someone of his on mythos do it.

Maybe they could have him training with Mongul, Brainiac, Eradicator or even Zod. Hell Jor-El may have set up something in the Fortress just him, it could be something like the X-Men Danger Room or just download the knowlodge on his mind like Neo in Matrix.

[mathew101281]

When comparing Superman to characters like Wonderwoman and BatmanI always said Superman was like that guy who started taking mma classes later in life, while Bruce and Diana started learning during their most formative years. He might know a few moves but fighting is like a second language to them.

[manwhohaseverything]

When comparing Superman to characters like Wonderwoman and BatmanI always said Superman was like that guy who started taking mma classes later in life, while Bruce and Diana started learning during their most formative years. He might know a few moves but fighting is like a second language to them.

This argument depends on the version. If clark was superboy in any form or fashion. They would be pretty equal. Bruce started training later when his parents died(10 year old at the earliest) . Wonderwoman is the only one who might have had an early start.The members of batfamily that actually started as kids are the robins.

[Adekis]

The version of Sam Lane who was distant from Lois and Lucy because he was a doctor is better than the version who's a soldier, for a few reasons. First, making Lois an army brat occasionally (not always) can lead to a sense that what makes her special is as much because of her upbringing as because of who she is. Secondly, making Lane a soldier can lead to either making him an action hero (Our Worlds At War for example) or extremely derivative of Thaddeus Ross from the Hulk (New Krypton for example), which are both... frankly, silly.

All the emotional tension with Lois that is worth having from Sam Lane being a general, can also be found in the version of him who is a doctor, without all the other crap that I think is too much.

[witchboy]

Reading Silver Age comics recently, it's really jarring to come across the Earth 1 Sam Lane who's a nice farmer not unlike Jonathon Kent.
I prefer General Lane. He has a lot more story potential and is a more distinct character. I can see that the comparison to General Ross from Hulk is a fair comparison, but it still makes him a more useful character all the same.
And I like the conflict with Lois. It gives her some complexity to play off of in family drama and makes a nice contrast to the loving Kents.

[Ascended]

The version of Sam Lane who was distant from Lois and Lucy because he was a doctor is better than the version who's a soldier, for a few reasons. First, making Lois an army brat occasionally (not always) can lead to a sense that what makes her special is as much because of her upbringing as because of who she is. Secondly, making Lane a soldier can lead to either making him an action hero (Our Worlds At War for example) or extremely derivative of Thaddeus Ross from the Hulk (New Krypton for example), which are both... frankly, silly.

All the emotional tension with Lois that is worth having from Sam Lane being a general, can also be found in the version of him who is a doctor, without all the other crap that I think is too much.

I agree General Lane requires a very delicate touch, but when writers don't go overboard I think he's pretty damn fun and a great wrinkle in the mythos.

Nobody wants "Thunderbolt Lane" but I think he's a great way to explore the military/political viewpoint with Clark. I like the version of General Lane who doesn't think Superman is a threat and isn't drooling at the chance to attack him, but doesn't like Superman or what he does, and worries about the impact Superman has. It's a measured, rational response that makes a lot of sense but there's echos of Lex Luthor and paranoid Batman dogma in there that, I dunno, adds a little color to the conversation maybe? Not sure what words I want here.

And because it's Lois dad, you get this fun kind of "trying to impress the girlfriend's dad" thing going on....but in classic Super fashion, pissing off the dad could lead to thermonuclear war.

But General Lane is also the first version of Sam I encountered so it might just be my nostalgia. Still, I think there's more you can do with the general narrative-wise than the small town doctor.

[godisawesome]

I actually think General Sam Lane is the problem, not the military idea.

Once you make Sam Lane a General, there’s a much greater push to make him be a mover and shaker in the story, leading to the Thunderbolt Ross situation, since a Sam who’s somewhat antagonistic to Clark and distant from his daughter but can command armies almost has to have the antagonist part emphasized if you don’t want to make him a jerk with a heart of gold, which clearly some writers feel means he has to then have a diminished role for.

Sam Lane as a mid-level officer, on the other hand, *can* offer more opportunities for an antagonistic but reserved role - he’s not the one making the big decisions, but he’s the one carrying them out or administering them, and I think the potential for Lois being a bit rebellious and anti-authority may make more empathetic sense if it’s not a reaction against her father ordering her around, but more other people ordering her father around instead, and him unflinchingly obeying them.

General Lane being xenophobic is tired, predictable, and unoriginal. Colonel Lane following orders that Lois thinks are xenophobic, knows he doesn’t personally have but will carry through anyway, makes for a more compelling conflict between them.

[Ascended]

.....that's a damn fine argument. So, what, you're thinking Sargent Lane?

[Kuwagaton]

Assuming the Kryptonian military was like our's, then physical one-on-one combat wouldn't be a big focus, but do we know enough about them to say either way?

There's also the difference between the institution and the man. Maybe it's unfair to say Zod's a good fighter because of his military experience, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't learn from somewhere.

Zod's gotta have something to balance things out and provide a high level challenge for Clark. Zod's supposed to be one of the rogues who makes Clark crap his pants a little because he's so dangerous and hard to defeat, and if Clark's got a lifetime of experience with his powers and the way they influence combat, then Zod has to have something to balance out that advantage or he's not nearly as much of a threat. I think Zod being a skilled fighter with a lot of natural talent provides that, and allows him to adapt to having powers quickly.

Totally agree about Faora too. I feel like she could be the Shiva of the Super-verse but everyone forgets she exists, or writes her as a henchman.

I never really got the impression that Zod should make Superman "crap his pants" other than that huge push to make him relevant because he was in that movie. The original Jax, Faora, Xadu, Quex, cartoon Jax and Mala, and the original Mala (lol) are just fine if you don't use him. And if they have to make him a good menace, instead of making him "The General" as a catch-all military gimmick all they have to do is make him ruthless.

It could be just me because he's overall very popular with all of this focus and even I occasionally enjoy him quite a bit, I just like to see some villain diversity.

The version of Sam Lane who was distant from Lois and Lucy because he was a doctor is better than the version who's a soldier, for a few reasons. First, making Lois an army brat occasionally (not always) can lead to a sense that what makes her special is as much because of her upbringing as because of who she is. Secondly, making Lane a soldier can lead to either making him an action hero (Our Worlds At War for example) or extremely derivative of Thaddeus Ross from the Hulk (New Krypton for example), which are both... frankly, silly.

All the emotional tension with Lois that is worth having from Sam Lane being a general, can also be found in the version of him who is a doctor, without all the other crap that I think is too much.

"Thunderbolt" gets knocked but the weird thing I find for many of the "post-crisis alternatives" is that instead of pre-crisis, we actually get more of the 2000 era stuff headed up or brought from the movies by Johns. Busiek, Loeb, and Waid were major contributors but he carried a lot of it forward, though ironically doesn't seem to get much praise as a Superman creator. Legion introduces Superman to being a hero, Metallo is a military experiment, Zod is the go-to Zoner, etc. And his own stuff like Superboy being half Lex with regular Kryptonian powers.

[marhawkman]

Having multiple evil-ish Kryptonians is fine. Zod is a leader among them though, that's why he is above the rest. But yeah. having Zod as the most powerful nah. smartest? lol, no. Most ambitious? probably not. But best leader? yes.