Controversial Superman Opinions

[Ascended]

3) The phrase "modeled after Goku more" should never be used about any character in the Superman universe. It's like saying an orange should have a variety modelled more on an apple. Or that Superman should take a page from Spider-man or even Wonder Woman.

Or how about "modeled after Batman"?

Goku is Goku. Clark is Clark. Don't try to make one into the other.

I'm not totally against sun dipping, but I think it should be something that worked slowly to show real results, like, he would have to be there a day at least.

I think I'd rather not see it done at all, but if it must be part of the mythos, then do it very, very rarely (once a decade is more than enough I think), and don't let just any writer do it.

The first time I saw sundipping back in OW@W I thought it was pretty damn cool and a great finale to the most cosmic Super story I had read at the time. But it's totally a matter of diminishing returns, and is less cool with each subsequent use.

I'd think there should be some kind of major drawback involved, to help prevent writers from abusing it. Maybe take a page from All-Star and say that sundipping runs the risk of Clark getting space cancer, or something.

[Jon Clark]

I very much agree with the "life, but cranked up to 11" mindset, the "walking the dog around the moon instead of the block" kind of stuff. But I don't like attempts to make Clark *completely* one of us. There's a strong dose of alienation and loneliness in Clark, a sense that he doesn't totally fit in, and I think that's something all of us feel at some point and is important for the character and mythos; a little melancholy to balance out all the fantastical and wonderful. But Clark has just as much "humanity" as anyone (more than many) even if his biology isn't like our's. For me, that's the key point; Clark isn't human but he has humanity.

But that's me, and I'm not saying you're wrong or anything.

To me the alienation comes from the experience of trying to relate "life cranked up to 11" in a society where no one can imagine anything beyond 10.

What does the world look like when you can see temperature variations? How does he describe that to Lois? Or until Krypto or Kara who can share all the sensations associated with flying through a lightning storm or bouncing bullets off your chest?

[Gaius]

3) The phrase "modeled after Goku more" should never be used about any character in the Superman universe. It's like saying an orange should have a variety modelled more on an apple. Or that Superman should take a page from Spider-man or even Wonder Woman.

As someone whose only knowledge of Goku comes from endless Superman/Goku comparisons, yeah I'd be content to have the two never compared again.

[manwhohaseverything]

3) The phrase "modeled after Goku more" should never be used about any character in the Superman universe. It's like saying an orange should have a variety modelled more on an apple. Or that Superman should take a page from Spider-man or even Wonder Woman.

All i am saying, jon is more of an apple than orange. Besides, the kid has been shown to be more about adventuring than "saving the world" . He does that, ofcourse. But, the character isn't going for the messiah vibes. He would rather be upto mishchief than be an "example" for people to strive towards. The kid has plenty shonen troupes and characteristics. Jon being a regular hybrid who gets stronger by training himself is much more attractive, than him being superman 2.0 who needs to be some sort of moral paragon untouched by any human ambition. The whole sun thing and flying paragon thing is pretty boring in that regards.No offense, but i felt people were implying his alieness is connected to sun thing. No, i don't see any of that in that way. Clark doesn't have much alienness in that regard. His senses and some abilities like levatation can be pretty alien. But, i have rarely seen them use any of that. The sun thing just makes him a fly paragon, sun god.. Etc. I much rather jon have this explanation of his physiology being akin to ants or grasshoppers, atmosphere causing skin and muscle strengthening , combined with high gravity training.. Etc being the reason jon "breaks" the boundaries of being ordinary. So, essentially if jon can train he can be superman because his muscles has high adaptability and potential. But, if he doesn't and choses to normal he will be. .I would rather jon's abilities being explained with this. Jon needs to constantly test his limits and push himself to be strong.

Superman can be as alien as he wants, as long as he can be seen as one of us.so my idea would be more cues from mythical monsters, animals, insects.. Etc for an alien-esque power set. Him being able to dislocate his body parts like a snake, rotate his neck like an owl,abnormal muscle expansion and control .. Etc. Superman just needs to look human. He doesn't need to be human.Just give the character a more horror creep factor.if people are really looking for that.

[The World]

I always viewed Superman's humanity as an emotional thing. He has all the same emotional wavelengths that human beings had and a lot of relateable inner desires as well. It's what makes stories like Jungle Line/Immortal Superman/Time and Time Again/WHTTMOT worth reading. He can get scared/happy/distraught/etc same as anyone, he's not some robot that looks like a man. He's got a beating heat under that steel body.

Physiologically I kind of like leaving it up to mystery what he's truly capable of or how he works. Ambiguity can be interesting and while I do find the powered by the sun to be cool it along with the "symbol of hope" thing I think are locking the character into the messiah angle which is dragging him down imo. Miller seems to have the idea that Kal's body absorbs energy of any kind in Year One and DKR, I think I'd start there for where he gets his power from but I'd personally add that it's the years of adventuring and combat with many kinds of entities that made him so powerful. All the different interactions have left a footprint on him over the years maturing both his powers and his mind. Makes for a better transition from leaping to flying, and potentially explaining his senses developing the way they do because if I recall originally his heat vision and x-ray vision were one in the same but became seperate powers over time. You could recontexualize things like that as a natural development.

[Ascended]

To me the alienation comes from the experience of trying to relate "life cranked up to 11" in a society where no one can imagine anything beyond 10.

What does the world look like when you can see temperature variations? How does he describe that to Lois? Or until Krypto or Kara who can share all the sensations associated with flying through a lightning storm or bouncing bullets off your chest?

That's kind of what I'm saying. Clark's one of us as far as "humanity" goes, but 90% of his day-to-day sensory experience is stuff we can't imagine. It's gotta be a lonely existence when you can't share so much, and a constant reminder that, despite all appearances, you're not "among your own."

I figure....imagine if you were the only person on earth who could see. Every other person, going back to the start of humanity, was born blind. How do you even begin to describe "sight" to someone who has never even heard of the concept? How do you explain color, when the word and the very idea of "color" don't exist? That's Clark's every day experience.

We talk a lot here about whether he's a SUPER man or a super MAN, and I've always thought that either approach misses the forest for the trees. He's not just some strange, unknowable alien, but nor is he just a regular ol' dude who happens to have super powers. He's both; SUPER and MAN. One foot in the sea of humanity, feeling as we feel, emoting as we emote, but at the same time beyond and different from us in so many ways.

[Adekis]

With Zod transitioning into a political frenemy, which is the most interesting he's *ever* been, I would be 100000% cool with Xa-Du the Phantom King taking over as the Big Bad of the Zone. Morrison worked some real magic with that guy's New52 update and even in the Silver Age Xa was pretty awful, in an interesting and entertaining way.

Agreed with all of that, 100%!

Why does Lois Lane's dad have to have a purpose? Can't he just be her father? They already had lots and lots of supporting characters to fill out the cast. And even more supporting characters that they shoved in the closet after the Crisis. Why does Lois have to have an important father? To me Lois is a woman who made it on her own. She came from humble beginnings, she had to fight and claw her way to gain every little bit of recognition she got. Having a big brass general as a father undermines that whole Horatio Alger story.

If they needed a megalomaniacal general of their own (rather than borrowing General Eiling or any of the other mad generals in other franchises), then they could have brought back General D.W. Derwent from the Pasko run.

It ruins the verisimilitude when every blooming character is someone of absolute importance--decorated soldiers, pulitzer prize winning journalists, captains of industry. Howabout someone that's just an ordinary Joe?

And that's another reason I like Sam Lane as just a doctor. It's distinct from Jon Kent, but it's a normal job. Similarly, I like Pete Ross as a highway engineer and Lana Lang as a secretary.

Zod should really be like all those evil Supermen DC loves to make: A guy broken by tragedy who is determined to never let it happen again. (They should also use Zod instead of Kal when they want to do yet another evil Superman takes over story).

Yeah, alright, that sounds vaguely interesting, and way better than perverting our boy Kal again and again. Though I'll also say, the best "loose cannon" Superman is already halfway to that - Hernan Guerra from Justice League: Gods and Monsters.

[Jim Kelly]

The elevator pitch for Superman is the Man of Tomorrow. Originally, he was going to be a man from the future. The whole idea is that he's a man, but he's a man to the nth degree--all of our abilities heightened. Making him come from another planet was just a way to explain how he could be so powerful without using the Philip Wylie origin or the time travel origin. But the selling point for kids in 1938 is that this is a man who is a superman. You're supposed to think of him as a man.

[manwhohaseverything]

Physiologically I kind of like leaving it up to mystery what he's truly capable of or how he works. Ambiguity can be interesting

Yeah! I always preferred silverage superman having a "mysterious" power origin. He can sneeze galaxies away.That can't be grounded. The sun cannot help you do that.

[Jon Clark]

That's kind of what I'm saying. Clark's one of us as far as "humanity" goes, but 90% of his day-to-day sensory experience is stuff we can't imagine. It's gotta be a lonely existence when you can't share so much, and a constant reminder that, despite all appearances, you're not "among your own."

I figure....imagine if you were the only person on earth who could see. Every other person, going back to the start of humanity, was born blind. How do you even begin to describe "sight" to someone who has never even heard of the concept? How do you explain color, when the word and the very idea of "color" don't exist? That's Clark's every day experience.

We talk a lot here about whether he's a SUPER man or a super MAN, and I've always thought that either approach misses the forest for the trees. He's not just some strange, unknowable alien, but nor is he just a regular ol' dude who happens to have super powers. He's both; SUPER and MAN. One foot in the sea of humanity, feeling as we feel, emoting as we emote, but at the same time beyond and different from us in so many ways.

Yeah, but my take is Superman's differences are experiential rather than physiological or psychological. He doesn't have miniature suns in the blood or as cells in his body. He doesn't have weird biological tics like a mating urge every seven years. He can't rotate his head 360 degrees.

[manwhohaseverything]

That would be pretty neat. I remember ben 10 as an alien gave eggs. It was pretty neat. As for, "he can't" argument .the guy can shoot miniature versions of himself from his hands.His powerset was never one thing.Him spinning his head 360 degrees would be very different and creative. If it works it can get cemented. Either way his entire power and movement sets are pretty bland/boring. It needs a change. There are tons of flying paragons. Superman wasn't meant to be one. Captain marvel was.So, superman changing would apt.Super strength is the only thing that's essential. Everything else is replaceable and can change.

[victorsage]

The elevator pitch for Superman is the Man of Tomorrow. Originally, he was going to be a man from the future. The whole idea is that he's a man, but he's a man to the nth degree--all of our abilities heightened. Making him come from another planet was just a way to explain how he could be so powerful without using the Philip Wylie origin or the time travel origin. But the selling point for kids in 1938 is that this is a man who is a superman. You're supposed to think of him as a man.

Well said.

The importance of Clark has never been his "alien" status, but his choice to use his powers for good. Through most of the Golden Age Clark had no idea he even was an alien.

Nothing against the people who prefer the more sci fi elements, but Clark's heart should always be here. I've been enjoying Superman Man of Tomorrow.

[manwhohaseverything]

Well said.

The importance of Clark has never been his "alien" status, but his choice to use his powers for good. Through most of the Golden Age Clark had no idea he even was an alien.

Nothing against the people who prefer the more sci fi elements, but Clark's heart should always be here. I've been enjoying Superman Man of Tomorrow.

Unlike modernage, goldenage put emphasis on superman's exceptionalism. He wasn't some naive farmboy average guy. That was his fake persona. He was an urban myth and the champion of the oppressed. He might not have known where he came from and his own origin. He knew and accepted himself as a different being. That's totally different from modern age tails or things man of tomorrow (which i particularly don't like). Where the character lies to himself and everyone about being "just a guy". Sure enough, goldenage guy was "just a guy" in the sense that he was working class. Other than that with talent, potential, drive, work... Etc wasn't that of "just a guy". Saying modern superman is anything like goldenage guy is pretty nonsensical.in modern tales the emphasis is "he is just a regular dude and a messiah"(which is contradictory. Moreover a guy who lives in a huge apartment and doesn't feel anything like working class dude and is kryptonIan royalty ). On top of that, goldenage guy was an outlaw who protected the weak.He broke the law,scared the corrupt and bullied the bullies. There was fair amount interesting things about the character. The character was Lonely, was alone and was an orphan. So there was enough alienation. Not mention pa kent asks him to hide himself. The characterisation was of that an alien in hiding.

[victorsage]

Unlike modernage, goldenage put emphasis on superman's exceptionalism. He wasn't some naive farmboy average guy. That was his fake persona. He was an urban myth and the champion of the oppressed. He might not have known where he came from and his own origin. He knew and accepted himself as a different being. That's totally different from modern age tails or things man of tomorrow (which i particularly don't like). Where the character lies to himself and everyone about being "just a guy". Sure enough, goldenage guy was "just a guy" in the sense that he was working class. Other than that with talent, potential, drive, work... Etc wasn't that of "just a guy". Saying modern superman is anything like goldenage guy is pretty nonsensical.in modern tales the emphasis is "he is just a regular dude and a messiah"(which is contradictory. Moreover a guy who lives in a huge apartment and doesn't feel anything like working class dude). On top of that, goldenage guy was an outlaw who protected the weak.He broke the law,scared the corrupt and bullied the bullies. There was fair amount interesting things about the character. The character was Lonely, was alone and was an orphan. So there was enough alienation. Not mention pa kent asks him to hide himself. The characterisation was of that an alien in hiding.

For starters his most of what you are saying is grade A nonsense. Clark never felt "lonely" in his work in the golden age, he didn't act anything like an alien. He didn't long for Krypton, he never knew about it. He was an outlaw for a time that was true, but had nothing to do with him being an orphan, and everything to do with the fact that he was still considered a vigilante then.

There is nothing alien about the early golden age stories at all, outside using Krypton to explain his power, they don't return to space again until years later, and Clark himself has no idea he even is an alien.

He builds relationships, he doesn't cry in agony about being alone. The golden age Clark Kent has friends, and it's even shown that Clark Kent the man invents Superman, and then after deciding to be a reporter in order to get news reports about crimes and accidents, he events the glasses and weaker willed man. He chooses the name, and creates two symbols in order to do the job he wants to do. But even then later on the glasses Kent became as powerful as the Superman identity, especially in the later comic strips, where he used the press as much as his powers to create change.

The importance of his farm life had a bigger impact later on, especially once people feel in love with the Superboy story line that is true, but he was always a man of Earth, caring about this planet. He didn't long for Krypton. If we take the K-Metal From Krypton as a hint of the early ideas of what Jerry Seigel though should be done with Clark, he doesn't even act that interested in finding out his is an alien, and even in that early outline Clark Kent is the dominate personality even when wearing the glasses. Demanding from Perry that he get a story that "he can sink his teeth into".

From that story we also see that Jerry had no problem with even destroying the so called dynamic about Lois knowing whom Superman actually was, she doesn't call him Kal-El/L she sees him as Clark Kent, because that's who he is, and they ally together in order to continue to help the people right here on our little blue ball. Which is also what happened in the comic stripes of the time, and later Golden Age. Relationships with the people of Earth that he is a part of is what his character is about. Not longing for a long dead alien society that destroyed itself.

This alien focus idea is a later product, more of a Silver Age invention, although I admit I'm not an expert on the radio serials.

Either way I have no interest in a Superman who doesn't see himself as an Earthling, or as Earth's Mightiest Hero.

[manwhohaseverything]

For starters his most of what you are saying is grade A nonsense. Clark never felt "lonely" in his work in the golden age, he didn't act anything like an alien. He didn't long for Krypton, he never knew about it. He was an outlaw for a time that was true, but had nothing to do with him being an orphan, and everything to do with the fact that he was still considered a vigilante then.

There is nothing alien about the early golden age stories at all, outside using Krypton to explain his power, they don't return to space again until years later, and Clark himself has no idea he even is an alien.

He builds relationships, he doesn't cry in agony about being alone. The golden age Clark Kent has friends, and it's even shown that Clark Kent the man invents Superman, and then after deciding to be a reporter in order to get news reports about crimes and accidents, he events the glasses and weaker willed man. He chooses the name, and creates two symbols in order to do the job he wants to do. But even then later on the glasses Kent became as powerful as the Superman identity, especially in the later comic strips, where he used the press as much as his powers to create change.

The importance of his farm life had a bigger impact later on, especially once people feel in love with the Superboy story line that is true, but he was always a man of Earth, caring about this planet. He didn't long for Krypton. If we take the K-Metal From Krypton as a hint of the early ideas of what Jerry Seigel though should be done with Clark, he doesn't even act that interested in finding out his is an alien, and even in that early outline Clark Kent is the dominate personality even when wearing the glasses. Demanding from Perry that he get a story that "he can sink his teeth into".

From that story we also see that Jerry had no problem with even destroying the so called dynamic about Lois knowing whom Superman actually was, she doesn't call him Kal-El/L she sees him as Clark Kent, because that's who he is, and they ally together in order to continue to help the people right here on our little blue ball. Which is also what happened in the comic stripes of the time, and later Golden Age. Relationships with the people of Earth that he is a part of is what his character is about. Not longing for a long dead alien society that destroyed itself.

Ok. What is this?

The guy grieving his parents became a vigilante. That's only possible because of loneliness. goldenage was more comics strip like. Things weren't dragged out, which made it even more awesome . He played the idiot in his work life. He didn't much real friends. Lois hated Clark's guts. Why? Because goldage clark kent persona was a wimp who pushed her into danger. Ofcourse, there was progression in that.But, saying he wasn't lonely is false.it doesn't need to be spelled out. It's in the context. clark became a vigilante because he was lonely and an orphan. His parents death, the hole it created and deep rooted corruption in the system made him act.

If clark isn't an alien. Why would his parent ask him to hide his strength till the right time? They specifically say people would be afraid of superman. If that's not alien characterisation. I don't know what is. Alien also means the "other". Tbey don't need to return to krypton for Clark's alienation in characterisation nor does he need to moan about it constantly.

A character doesn't need to moan about dead parents like bruce wayne or modern barry allen to feel alone. The character was meant to to be a kickass man of action who never stopped fighting for the little guy. But, that doesn’t mean he never felt alone. Jimmy was created exactly for this reason in radio show.it gave superman a person to talk to for the first time. Before jimmy, clark was pretty alone. No, clark kent-the guy with glasses was fake persona. He was superman, in reality. Superman created the clark kent wimpy persona so that news about him wasn't available. He was an urban myth. Lois lane fell for the real man, not the facade. Sure enough, this man might have been called clark kent in the past by john and mary. Lois calls him clark because she knew clark and for her, superman must have been a epithet . But, superman and the persona he created were different. Superman became a way for him to act himself. So, essentially real "clark kent" identity became superman and the name was given to the fake one. Clark kent just became something he used. Even if, he used the fake persona to act out his real self sometimes. That doesn't make the wimpy clark kent the real deal. Superman can actout himself without the strongman suit.It's an identity, not a personality. An identity needs a purpose.it needs to be acted out. I can say i am an atheist. But, if i don't act out that identity then i am not. The reverse is also possible.

He doesn't need to be interested in the past to know that he was an alien or to act out that identity. For example, goku didn't care about being a saiyan. Yet, his battle thirst is entirely due to his blood and saiyan identity.So, goku is kakkarot whether he likes it or not. Just like superman doesn't need the strongman suit to act out that identities role. he had exceptional strength and yet, feared the consequences of himself being outted fully. If clark wasn't afraid of people's reaction he wouldn't need to create a fake persona. He would have lived his life as being himself (champion of the oppressed) and defending the weak without any facade. This entirely means clark was acting out the alien identity aka kal l. I know siegel and shushter put in their own experiences as jews, immigrants.. Etc for this particular tidbit in characterisation .

For superman, the here and now, mattered. That's why the character was called the man of action.But,that doesn’t mean suddenly became all about " being human". In goldenage out of three identities, superman identity was the focus. He was superman first and foremost . Not clark kent reporter or kal el the alien. Clark was fake. Kal el was the past.which is what i wrote. Superman's exceptionalism was the focus.Each identity signifies something different . Clark kent signifies the normal and the mundane. Kal l signifies the "other" or the alien. Superman signifies (as said) the exceptional. Superman tears off that fake mudane veneer.Modern superman comics emphasises the mundane, not the exceptional. Hence, superman identity is not the main identity. Clark kent identity is.
Finally, jerry siegel wrote superman's return to krypton. Which entirely based on the kal l identity being the active identity. He says "it feels like an incredible dream". That means even though he acknowledges having earth as second home is good. He feels a deep sadness about the lose of his world, lyla lerrol,his birth parent... Etc.