Controversial Superman Opinions

[Robanker]

There really isn't any kind of actual, real world combat style that would work with Clark. He's playing by different physics. Boxing is the closest equivalent we have but I don't think it'd be boxing in a form we really recognize. But like boxing, it'd focus a lot on endurance, positioning, and combos designed to wear an opponent down before the big finisher.

I figure what Clark has done is build a combat style of his own, made from bits and pieces of all kinds of things; boxing, krav maga, judo, wrestling, styles from alien races and time periods, all adapted and repurposed to work with Clark's powerset, and stuff he's worked out for himself. And as Robanker says, unless you know what you're looking at Clark probably looks like an amateur who's just throwing punches with abandon. But if you know what you're looking at, then you can recognize that this body blow combo was adapted from boxing, and that counter-grab-punch combo started out as something from a Khund fighting style, that throw which moves the threat out of the city is based on something from judo, and this other move is something Clark worked out for himself the time he fought a telekinetic alien squid.

In my head, Clark moves something like Ali fused with Holyfield....if Ali and Holyfield could melt concrete with a look, knock buildings over with a breath, and had never met gravity.

I disagree with the notion that Clark just works in his heat vision and ice breath where he finds an opening. He grew up with these powers, using them should be as natural to him as using his fists. I think a big part of Clark's fighting style, aside from adapting stuff to work with his kind of physics, is including his additional powers in the mix, rather than treating them like a "special move" he only uses when there's an opening. That's part of what makes Clark such an effective fighter, he instinctively uses the vortexes created by his speed to his advantage, his heat vision is part of his combos, he uses his breath to knock people off balance and open them up for an attack, etc.

I agree he wouldn't just use them in an opening because, well, they're natural parts of him so he weaves them in.

But we're being tasked with "if he followed a school if combat" and literally none include those abilities so we can't bring them up given the prompt. Ultimately, the reason he doesn't have one is because his normal ruins all their teachings. He can reorient himself midair and fly so grappling is a terrible idea to use in him unless you can too. He can immobilize with a breath, or knock people down with said breath. He has heatvision, can create a sonic boom by clapping, etc.

Even "Kryptonian martial arts" don't work when you think about it because they didn't have their powers on Krypton.

Clark's style, truthfully, would look like brawling because it is. There's no formal training in the world that can really use his full skill set. He'd have to learn from some alien species and, again, at that point it's just indistinguishable to the layman until you pay close attention over a large sample size of fights.

If I had to pick one? Boxing, for the reasons posted.

Realistically? He would have to make it up as he goes, keep what works and steal moves he sees that he can use and incorporate them, but I don't think it would have a name beyond someone else trying to give it one and asking him to teach them to fight.

[DochaDocha]

I've went into some length prior about this particular subject, and I don't want to keep regurgitating stuff to the board's chagrin, but here are some additional thoughts:

1) I don't think Superman should be a H2H master. He's already stronger, faster, smarter, and more durable than most guys, so he doesn't need to have a skill advantage, either.

2) A guy who's been training all his life is going to be better than Supes, regardless of training. I didn't read all the messages, but I believe I read Zod was one such guy. One of those comics tropes that bugs me is that if martial arts master antagonist whoops our hero, then our hero just needs to train for 6 weeks and then will be better than the antagonist. If Supes has a skill deficit against a guy like Zod, who's trained his entire life, then a couple years of training is just going to mean that the gap is now smaller but Superman is still a 'dog (under the assumption that Zod knows how to utilize the full complement of Kryptonian powers; Superman vs. a Zod who's new to the powers favors Superman).

3) Guys with Superman's exact skill set are pretty rare, so no pre-existing martial art is going to maximize Superman's fighting ability. If Superman studied kung fu, he might be limiting himself in certain ways.

4) Since most known martial arts are sub-optimal for Superman, maybe taking formal classes to become a martial arts master is just not time- and cost-effective. I mean, yeah, the DCU is a world where Batman can master 127 martial arts, run his business by day, fight crime by night, earn 12 Masters degrees, and be a playboy socialite all in like 10 years (bahahahahahahaha!), but maybe the world isn't better off if Superman is spending 10 hours a week learning a martial art with diminishing returns when there are so many tasks out there that are begging for his attention. "Sorry kids, I could've helped with the flooding and the mudslides that wrecked your village, but I was working on my horse stance and katas..."

Occasionally training and getting better slowly but steadily is plenty good for me.

[Vordan]

There was a fun story in the Man of Tomorrow digital series about Superman undergoing a training arc by one of Darkseid’s escapee trainers. I really enjoyed that and that’s the kind of teacher I could see Superman seeking out. Think I’ve said this before, but I also favor the idea of Diana and Clark training together to create a new kind of martial art skillset, since I think Diana is the only Amazon who can fly? That means she and Clark would be one of the few people powerful enough to be able to actually compete and test each other’s limits.

[Ra-El]

I've went into some length prior about this particular subject, and I don't want to keep regurgitating stuff to the board's chagrin, but here are some additional thoughts:


2) A guy who's been training all his life is going to be better than Supes, regardless of training. I didn't read all the messages, but I believe I read Zod was one such guy. One of those comics tropes that bugs me is that if martial arts master antagonist whoops our hero, then our hero just needs to train for 6 weeks and then will be better than the antagonist. If Supes has a skill deficit against a guy like Zod, who's trained his entire life, then a couple years of training is just going to mean that the gap is now smaller but Superman is still a 'dog (under the assumption that Zod knows how to utilize the full complement of Kryptonian powers; Superman vs. a Zod who's new to the powers favors Superman).

Actually, if you stop to look into the UFC fighters careers and training history, you will see that a lot of times the guy who trained the longest is not the better. You have guys that trained since 5 years old and mastered , 4 or more different styles losing to guys who have 5 years of training and mastered one style and only knows the basic of others. The truth is that experience, talent and fighting smart counts a lot. And the way I see it, Superman have a lot of expericence, should always fight smart and maybe, he actually is a talented fighter.

[Knightsilver]

Mongul Jr. trained Superman for a little while during Loeb's early run. It was to stop one of Imperiex's drones.

[DochaDocha]

Actually, if you stop to look into the UFC fighters careers and training history, you will see that a lot of times the guy who trained the longest is not the better. You have guys that trained since 5 years old and mastered , 4 or more different styles losing to guys who have 5 years of training and mastered one style and only knows the basic of others. The truth is that experience, talent and fighting smart counts a lot. And the way I see it, Superman have a lot of expericence, should always fight smart and maybe, he actually is a talented fighter.

True. There's no substitute for quality of training, and some people are just beasts, and some guys are blatant cheats with their "vitamins." My point about Zod is give him credit. If he's going to be a killing machine, then Superman's is not going to beat Zod on Zod's terms.

[Ascended]

I don't really care for or see the need of Superman being trained in some form of combat or martial arts. I guess it might cut down on nonsense like people saying Batman or whomever could beat him in a "fair fight" but I'd just prefer it if Batman vs. Superman/hero vs. hero story lines got the kaput altogether at DC.

It's not about Batman. It's about Zod, Mongul, Lobo, New Gods, and all the other monsters Clark fights.

The majority of Superman's rogues gallery are roughly as strong as he is, several are much stronger, and all of them have tricks, skills, gear, or abilities at their disposal which give them even more options and advantages. If Clark doesn't know how to fight properly, then the world, maybe the universe, ends. It'd be utterly irresponsible of him to *not* learn how to fight. Yes, he can out-think and out-smart his foes.....and that's usually how he wins. But without that training, he doesn't live long enough to out-smart anyone.

Think of it like this; you sign up for a MMA match and are told that, for every punch you take, someone dies, and for every punch you land, someone lives. You'd be pretty awful to not bother learning how to fight, right? You wouldn't just shrug that off and be like "Eh, I'll figure it out when I get there." That's the situation Clark put himself in when he decided to wear the cape and stop bad people.

Clark shouldnt be some grand master of combat, and nobody is saying he should be. But he should know how to fight.

Sorta-kinda on a tangent, but this is also part of why I think the Legion is so important to Clark's backstory. Working with those guys provides the opportunity for Clark to learn how to fight against people like him and how to be a hero. It explains why he's so hyper competent right from the start of his Superman career. That degree of competence is a big part of why people accept him so readily, which is a big part of why people accept other heroes as they start to appear, which is a big reason heroes in the DCU are generally beloved while Marvel's are mistrusted and feared.

[Gaius]

It's not about Batman. It's about Zod, Mongul, Lobo, New Gods, and all the other monsters Clark fights.

The majority of Superman's rogues gallery are roughly as strong as he is, several are much stronger, and all of them have tricks, skills, gear, or abilities at their disposal which give them even more options and advantages. If Clark doesn't know how to fight properly, then the world, maybe the universe, ends. It'd be utterly irresponsible of him to *not* learn how to fight. Yes, he can out-think and out-smart his foes.....and that's usually how he wins. But without that training, he doesn't live long enough to out-smart anyone.

Think of it like this; you sign up for a MMA match and are told that, for every punch you take, someone dies, and for every punch you land, someone lives. You'd be pretty awful to not bother learning how to fight, right? You wouldn't just shrug that off and be like "Eh, I'll figure it out when I get there." That's the situation Clark put himself in when he decided to wear the cape and stop bad people.

Clark shouldnt be some grand master of combat, and nobody is saying he should be. But he should know how to fight.

Sorta-kinda on a tangent, but this is also part of why I think the Legion is so important to Clark's backstory. Working with those guys provides the opportunity for Clark to learn how to fight against people like him and how to be a hero. It explains why he's so hyper competent right from the start of his Superman career. That degree of competence is a big part of why people accept him so readily, which is a big part of why people accept other heroes as they start to appear, which is a big reason heroes in the DCU are generally beloved while Marvel's are mistrusted and feared.

Hmm, never really considered it in that sense so I guess it would make sense he’d decide as a responsible hero he’d have to learn to fight to quickly take care of people at his level.

Guess it could also provide an interesting story opportunity for who ever he trains with. Wonder Woman was suggested above and I guess that could be an interesting way to develop their friendship. Martian Manhunter maybe or his time with the Legion like you said.

[manwhohaseverything]

2) A guy who's been training all his life is going to be better than Supes, regardless of training. I didn't read all the messages, but I believe I read Zod was one such guy. One of those comics tropes that bugs me is that if martial arts master antagonist whoops our hero, then our hero just needs to train for 6 weeks and then will be better than the antagonist. If Supes has a skill deficit against a guy like Zod, who's trained his entire life, then a couple years of training is just going to mean that the gap is now smaller but Superman is still a 'dog (under the assumption that Zod knows how to utilize the full complement of Kryptonian powers; Superman vs. a Zod who's new to the powers favors Superman).

Considering superman beats him without having any fighting experience. I would say him atleast getting some formal training and beating is much better. Its not something we could say is good writing. But, it's better. See, this is what i am talking about. You can't keep the farmboy with no experience thing and superboy/superman who has already fought countless battles from childhood, thing togther. If you choose to go with the former then superman should be getting his ass kicked literally when faced with guys who are actual Fighters. He should be beaten to a pulp during his first encounters with these guys. Darkseid is a king who has been through a generational war and lives in hell. Mongul too has been in the ring. Zod, Eradicator... Etc are miltary guys designed to protect krypton. It doesn't make any sense that superman wins these fights. Yet, he does. That too by punching them. You have to go for something like batman's "prep time cheats" thing.Even then, these guys would be trained strategists. Superman using "i threw a green rock at him" logic would be as bad as the prior. The only way you could have is, superman(with no experience) getting knocked around and around . Then getting better at it by virtue of pain tolerance, mimicking his opponents and building muscle memory... Etc. Assuming, bad guys don't actually kill him.Still it would feel like cm punk in mma and actually winning.

[rpmaluki]

To be honest I have never understood the opinion that Superman doesn't know how to fight, this is a guy with 80 years worth of stories of him fighting supervillains, that doesn't make sense to me. Clark knows how to fight and adapt accordingly as the fight dictates. I don't need him to be a master of a particular style in order to call him a fighter.

[marhawkman]

Hmm, never really considered it in that sense so I guess it would make sense he’d decide as a responsible hero he’d have to learn to fight to quickly take care of people at his level.

Guess it could also provide an interesting story opportunity for who ever he trains with. Wonder Woman was suggested above and I guess that could be an interesting way to develop their friendship. Martian Manhunter maybe or his time with the Legion like you said.

One version of Superman used his Superman Robots as punching bags. They were programmed to have hand to hand skills and Clark would use them for sparring practice and practicing techniques you wouldn't want to practice on a living being. Examples? In his fight vs Blackrock(Sam Benjamin) he used freeze breath to blind Benjamin, then a barrage of heat vision so intense it melted the pavement Blackrock was standing on. These are not combat techniques you'd want to practice on actual people. But at the same time you'd want to practice them to avoid collateral damage. For example: there was a lot of property damage in that Blackrock fight but no casualties... not even Blackrock.
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[manwhohaseverything]

The way i see it. The problem with superman isn't that he learns fighting or not.There are vastly different takes on the character, people want different things and they don't really mesh well together. At this point we need multiple supermen to satiate everyone.Reign of supermen anyone.

[marhawkman]

Actually, if you stop to look into the UFC fighters careers and training history, you will see that a lot of times the guy who trained the longest is not the better. You have guys that trained since 5 years old and mastered , 4 or more different styles losing to guys who have 5 years of training and mastered one style and only knows the basic of others. The truth is that experience, talent and fighting smart counts a lot. And the way I see it, Superman have a lot of expericence, should always fight smart and maybe, he actually is a talented fighter.

One thing someone told me about martial arts a long time ago is that you don't need to practice a style to know how to counter it. For example: Muay Thai likes wide arc downward strikes that most styles don't use. If you don't know how to parry strikes like that you're at a major disadvantage. But simply learning to parry them gives you the ability to fight on an even footing. Also if your style likes bone breaking punches all you need is to learn to avoid grapples to counter them, you don't really need to learn to perform grapples.

[Kuwagaton]

You still have to practice that, though. You really can't stop something by just knowing its shortcomings... although if we're talking comics, that tends to work just fine, sure. A high school wrestler, BJJ blue belt, or Judo yellow belt would ragdoll someone who just "learned" about what to do against them. A few months of good Muay Thai would destroy someone with no striking experience. But in comics, Batman had the time to master every one of them before the age of 90, while learning advanced science and engineering.

Superman being essentially a first responder comes from poring over the comics, but admittedly it's just my headcanon description. But he is in fact a jack of all trades, a renaissance man, by definition. He would understand human fighting systems, how they apply and don't to his own level of physical conflict.

And in that case, he should generally whip a Zod more about often than not. Being in the military in and of itself is not an advantage in a fight because usually hand to hand skills are either irrelevant or infrequently used without the individual emphasis, which Zod doesn't really have. We're talking about the average tenured officer who lives like a fugitive versus a guy who's learned and practiced his unique form of combat for years and uses them on a regular basis, with countless resources at his disposal. Zod should only be able to win a fight after negating those other advantages.

What bugs me about it is that we do have a premier Kryptonian specialist in combat: Faora! She's right there, and from the very beginning she was able to whip Kal and Zod. Doomed to forever get mixed up with Ursa as some novelty underling. For all the talk about how his female villains are lacking, we have Foara and Silver Banshee completely misunderstood and downplayed (take a shot every time some writer has her show up and Sonic yell at something, only to get knocked out).

Doomsday also came up, and again I'm bugged. But it's because I'm a Hulk fan and saying that they're anything alike is just taking two pictures of them side by side and moving on. I think intelligent Doomsday is really interesting, and that still makes him nothing like the Hulk.

[Ra-El]

I think the Krypton TV show, R.I.P, had it best. They had the militaries, like the Zods who trained and have their own more formal and formidable fight style, but they also had Seg-El who learned how to fight basically on the street and he was pretty good at it.

When Seg come up agains Zod for example, he would get a beating most of the time, but he would still manage to win a few fights.