Controversial Superman Opinions

[marhawkman]

I think my fave superman runs ever were by Kurt Busiek and MJS....

But Mark Verheiden nailed it too.

[Kuwagaton]

It's been a few years but Verheiden really held up well imo

2004-2016 weren't my favorite years overall but runs like that would always popped up. I also loved that fortress

[Stanlos]

Hi, Superman Fans! I was gifted Kindle points enough to buy a collected edition! But which volume? I am considering Superman Doomed and the Bendis run, specifically the volume where the Jon Jor El shenanigans happen. I have a hardcover of the secret ID reveal. Which of those should I get? Or dp you know of better collections to try?

[Kuwagaton]

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ndations/page7

Well, there is this whole thread that we can probably use going forward. But I think a recommendation depends on what you already like and don't like, y'know?

I wouldn't consider Doomed or Bendis normally, but if you really liked 2000s era Marvel then it could be the best entry point into some recent stories.

[The World]

I'm envious of the reverence and respect the Wonder Woman fans have for Martson. Siegel and Shuster will never get that from the modern Superman fanbase who seem to see them as "those two guys from way back when that briefly wrote the character". The character would be in much better place if we actually had some kind of guiding star that explained the character rather than everyone trying to twist the character into what works for them.

[Stanlos]

I'm envious of the reverence and respect the Wonder Woman fans have for Martson. Siegel and Shuster will never get that from the modern Superman fanbase who seem to see them as "those two guys from way back when that briefly wrote the character". The character would be in much better place if we actually had some kind of guiding star that explained the character rather than everyone trying to twist the character into what works for them.

"Briefly wrote the character "?!!

Ssssssacrilege!!! Obviously they weren't as erudite as the other dude but they WERE passionate about their creation. Their notions and ideas are also clearly documented as well. Spoiler Alert: he is DEFINED as being uberpowerful--you're doing it wrong if he is not

[Kuwagaton]

I'm envious of the reverence and respect the Wonder Woman fans have for Martson. Siegel and Shuster will never get that from the modern Superman fanbase who seem to see them as "those two guys from way back when that briefly wrote the character". The character would be in much better place if we actually had some kind of guiding star that explained the character rather than everyone trying to twist the character into what works for them.

Marston is... a can of worms haha. Combined, the Superman creators really don't have the pervasive projection of their personal lives so overt, and they aren't storied like that in the first place.

I have a way of agreeing but actually because I see Siegel and Shuster paired. Shuster deserves all of the credit he's given except I think it comes off as people not really giving Siegel his own distinct praise as someone who objectively did far more.

[DochaDocha]

Not really a controversial opinion here, but didn't want to start a whole new thread just for this discussion.

I listened to the video linked below during a really long solo road trip last weekend. It's pretty long so I don't necessarily encourage anyone to watch the whole thing, but one of the things that stood out to me is that this fellow talked about how important Batman's integrity is. If you diminish the importance of Batman's integrity, you're not staying true to Batman, or something along those lines. He then goes on about Injustice, at one point saying how fans embraced the story (obviously he doesn't have his finger on our pulse!), and that no matter its alt universe status it's true to Batman because Batman's integrity doesn't get thrown out the window. Of course, the irony here is that Superman's (and Wonder Woman's, and really a whole lot of other heroes') integrity is completely disposable for the sake of the story. And for some reason, that's quite okay.

So that got me wondering, what would happen if James Gunn decided that Superman's integrity should be unimpeachable? Of course we would be thrilled, but would the general audience just chalk that up to something like "Oh, this boy scout Superman is too good, I'm not interested"? And why is making an incorruptible Batman a good thing (it is IMO, it's one of the appealing features of the Nolan and Reeves Batman films)?

FYI, the last half of the video is the guy's suggestion on how to improve BvS and JL. There are some good ideas sprinkled in, but it's basically turn both of those movies into more Bat-centric films...

[Obeythemoderators]

If people think that Superman should never kill his enemies then they might as well pretend that the second movie, Zod and the 80's do not exist.

[Kuwagaton]

Rather than staunchly make Superman one way or the other on that, I'd rather they just make his villains prompt the question less. A terrorist you never see again can go to jail. A guy who steals huge amounts of money can go to jail and come out. Creepy 90s Toyman got a second chance and didn't revert. Doomsday and Grundy are unliving. Someone with the power to escape punishment can just do that.

The Joker, a guy who breaks out of jail and just kills innocent people all the time? That to me is the break from reality in the worst sense. Don't give Superman a guy like that, the story would be leaser for it.

[mathew101281]

I'm envious of the reverence and respect the Wonder Woman fans have for Martson. Siegel and Shuster will never get that from the modern Superman fanbase who seem to see them as "those two guys from way back when that briefly wrote the character". The character would be in much better place if we actually had some kind of guiding star that explained the character rather than everyone trying to twist the character into what works for them.

Would it be better off? Wonder Woman is DC’s most poorly run franchise, and most of the stuff people associate with Superman comes from the Silver Age not the Golden age.

[SiegePerilous02]

I'm envious of the reverence and respect the Wonder Woman fans have for Martson. Siegel and Shuster will never get that from the modern Superman fanbase who seem to see them as "those two guys from way back when that briefly wrote the character". The character would be in much better place if we actually had some kind of guiding star that explained the character rather than everyone trying to twist the character into what works for them.

For the Wonder fanbase, Marston has pretty much been supplanted by Perez. He's pretty much the equivalent of Byrne.

Though Perez is actually worth the hype and his influence on that character is good. Byrne....not so much

[Gaius]

I'm envious of the reverence and respect the Wonder Woman fans have for Martson. Siegel and Shuster will never get that from the modern Superman fanbase who seem to see them as "those two guys from way back when that briefly wrote the character". The character would be in much better place if we actually had some kind of guiding star that explained the character rather than everyone trying to twist the character into what works for them.

Maybe if I was more in-tune with the Superman fandom I'd agree but can't really see it, maybe Marston gets a bit more noticeable kudos for creating a woman character superior to men in a time where that was not a thing and that just about all WW works after him and before Perez are functionally worthless. And like Siege said, Perez's reboot was as big a ground zero for her as Byrne was for Superman and attempts to bring back pre-crisis WW stuff have largely been mixed in comparison to the modern attempts to reintroduce pre-Crisis Superman concepts.

But other than most obvious Marston elements were largely taken out during the Silver Age and attempts to bring them back didn't exactly light the world on fire (Earth One). In fact one of the most recently universally acclaimed Wonder Woman stories was pitched as a "rejection of Marston".

[Agent Z]

Would it be better off? Wonder Woman is DCÂ’s most poorly run franchise,.

I'm pretty sure Green Lantern fits that description.

Then again, just about any DC property that isn't Batman, Superman, Titans or Justice League would qualify.

[SiegePerilous02]

If people think that Superman should never kill his enemies then they might as well pretend that the second movie, Zod and the 80's do not exist.

Typically the people who don't like Superman killing also do not like those examples. So they'd probably be happy to pretend those don't exist.

Maybe if I was more in-tune with the Superman fandom I'd agree but can't really see it, maybe Marston gets a bit more noticeable kudos for creating a woman character superior to men in a time where that was not a thing and that just about all WW works after him and before Perez are functionally worthless. And like Siege said, Perez's reboot was as big a ground zero for her as Byrne was for Superman and attempts to bring back pre-crisis WW stuff have largely been mixed in comparison to the modern attempts to reintroduce pre-Crisis Superman concepts.

But other than most obvious Marston elements were largely taken out during the Silver Age and attempts to bring them back didn't exactly light the world on fire (Earth One). In fact one of the most recently universally acclaimed Wonder Woman stories was pitched as a "rejection of Marston".

Superman's pre-Crisis elements are also easier to reintroduce. A defter hand is required to reintroduce Marston's Golden Age stuff. Morrison is a case where they are absolutely right in that the Golden Age can be mined for great ideas for WW, they just weren't the person to do it.

Perez's Wonder Woman being edited by Karen Berger also makes it an honorary Vertigo book. It just holds up better to modern reading eyes compared to Byrne's comics (which are just so blah and dated).