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  1. #2401
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    The idea of Superman not having a good grasp on fighting to me sounds lazy. I mean it's not his thing (do they even pretend Batman likes it?) but he does it so often with such high stakes that he should know what he's doing above the average person. I can't imagine him being just average (like less than an A level college student) with subjects like physics or psychology by the same token. To me the closest he gets to being a regular guy with powers is at least being as invested as a cop.
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  2. #2402
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Which brings me to my controversial opinion. I don't understand superhero mentality regarding fighting. I don't understand why heroes should treat it as if it's a stigma. They think they are above it and pretend to not like it. Yet, most they do is fight. Genre itself is a sub genre of action and fantasy. I wouldn't mind a superman who likes to fight one of these days. I would assume goldenage guy wouldn't mind getting his teeth knocked out and swinging back in competitions. Have competitive and physical superman.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-10-2020 at 12:31 PM.

  3. #2403
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Because it sounds really bad when the biggest, strongest dude on your planet admits he likes knocking skulls together. It worked in the golden age because he was unashamedly a bully, he just happened to be on your side, and it was fine. He could lift a car, not a planet. The scale's gone to godhood at this point so a bit of extra humility was peppered in.

    Clark's been shown to enjoy a good dust-up time and again, but having him outright say "I think fighting is fun" does make him sound a little bit like a punch-down chump. Of course he does, he has all the power in the universe and it runs counter to the core thematic that DC pushes with Clark; the man with all the power of a God who fashions himself as a man.

    He totally likes fighting, you can see it when he's doing his thing and not against some genocidal monster like Darkseid, but I don't think he consciously likes violence. He likes the sport of combat a ton. Watch him punch out robots or (I know this isn't fighting, but still) his races with Flash. Clark loves physical exertion. Bruce is the same. I don't think he enjoys the act of crippling people. The adrenaline? The chase? Sure, of course he does. It's part of why he fell in love with Selina. She offered all the thrill of Batman without the morose element of murder and such.

    I don't think any of them enjoy hurting people, though. They like combat itself fine. Wildcat is another good example. He loves the sweet science. Boxing was his passion and he was damned good at it. Enjoyed every second. If he crippled a guy in the ring, I don't think he'd ever truly get over it. Criminals I don't think he'd cry over, but I don't think he's actively trying to put anyone in a wheelchair. They love the sport, the thrill and the competition of a good fight, but violence probably not as much. I know some would argue Bruce does, but I favor a bronze age Batman who was a decent person at heart and I don't think he ever much enjoyed caving someone's head in.
    Last edited by Robanker; 02-10-2020 at 09:04 PM.

  4. #2404
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Which brings me to my controversial opinion. I don't understand superhero mentality regarding fighting. I don't understand why heroes should treat it as if it's a stigma. They think they are above it and pretend to not like it. Yet, most they do is fight. Genre itself is a sub genre of action and fantasy. I wouldn't mind a superman who likes to fight one of these days. I would assume goldenage guy wouldn't mind getting his teeth knocked out and swinging back in competitions. Have competitive and physical superman.
    Honestly? This seems to be because DC editorial treats martial arts skills as a superpower, thus if Superman is Batman's equal as a martial artist then what does Batman bring to the JLA that Question doesn't? (Other than insanity and paranoia that is)

    Which is dumb because the list of things that IRL are considered martial arts makes half the characters in DC who HAVE powers martial artists. Sure, there's Kung-Fu and Karate... There's also Sumo wrestling, Savate, Krav-Maga, and Capoeira. But also MAC-P, Greco-Roman Wrestling(and it's ancient predecessor Pankration) and British-style Boxing. To be defined as a martial art requires it to be a formalized combat style. WHO created it and how is far less important.

    Again, DC likes to assign mystical significance, even when the practitioners are explicitly stated to NOT be using any superhuman abilities or channeling actual magic. Logically it doesn't make sense for characters like Livewire, or Bane to be unable to learn martial arts. Err.. well Bane would IRL be considered a martial artist. His moves are a rather effective grappling style with an emphasis on techniques for breaking bones while grappling. Hmm on second thought Bane is considered a martial artist in-universe. This is not to say that NO superhuman characters are ever said to be martial artists, it's an exception though. It's even more weird when the comics have certain alternate universe version study martial arts... then use them to do the same thing they did before... SOME versions of Bekka(yes, the New God descendant of High Father) and Catwoman are officially considered martial artists, but the others are just better than average fighters. Doesn't really make sense. Sure you can qualify it as "expert martial artist" but if you do that dumb punks like Damian shouldn't count.

    In the end you kinda have to write it off as writers not really understanding the concept. I actually learned breaking as a kid and I never had any formal training. I just imitated the Karate Kid and figured out how to make it work.

  5. #2405
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Because it sounds really bad when the biggest, strongest dude on your planet admits he likes knocking skulls together. It worked in the golden age because he was unashamedly a bully, he just happened to be on your side, and it was fine. He could lift a car, not a planet. The scale's gone to godhood at this point so a bit of extra humility was peppered in.

    Clark's been shown to enjoy a good dust-up time and again, but having him outright say "I think fighting is fun" does make him sound a little bit like a punch-down chump. Of course he does, he has all the power in the universe and it runs counter to the core thematic that DC pushes with Clark; the man with all the power of a God who fashions himself as a man.

    He totally likes fighting, you can see it when he's doing his thing and not against some genocidal monster like Darkseid, but I don't think he consciously likes violence. He likes the sport of combat a ton. Watch him punch out robots or (I know this isn't fighting, but still) his races with Flash. Clark loves physical exertion. Bruce is the same. I don't think he enjoys the act of crippling people. The adrenaline? The chase? Sure, of course he does. It's part of why he fell in love with Selina. She offered all the thrill of Batman without the morose element of murder and such.

    I don't think any of them enjoy hurting people, though. They like combat itself fine. Wildcat is another good example. He loves the sweet science. Boxing was his passion and he was damned good at it. Enjoyed every second. If he crippled a guy in the ring, I don't think he'd ever truly get over it. Criminals I don't think he'd cry over, but I don't think he's actively trying to put anyone in a wheelchair. They love the sport, the thrill and the competition of a good fight, but violence probably not as much. I know some would argue Bruce does, but I favor a bronze age Batman who was a decent person at heart and I don't think he ever much enjoyed caving someone's head in.
    First of all, you are conflating two issues. A fight is between two people isn't one sided beat down or bullying. If superman says he loves a good fight.that wouldn't mean he becomes punch down chump.people are smart enough to understand (i could be wrong on this one) it doesn't mean a beat down on random thug down the street. That isn't considered a fight. Superman's characterisation and attitude should make that clear . Its the same for goku.Beat downs are not what the guy looks for.

    He likes fights that challenges him.like endurance test with atlas, a race with the flashes, a wrestling match with wonderwoman and samsung, good old fashion chess game with lex or mister terrific or batman, a writing contest with lois.... Etc. And hate this notion that superman should be fine with losing any contests. He shouldn't. He should hate losing and strive to better himself. If wonder woman out maneuvers him in a wrestling match or flash leaves him in the dust. He shouldn't say "oh! Well. It doesn't matter to me". In fact, i would love it if clark has rocklee or guy sensei type mentality. Guy and lee always challenges kakashi. Many times he loses.He then does "punishment" challenges or physical exercises.
    "If I can't do 400 push-ups, I'll hit the dummy 800 times! If I can't hit the dummy 800 times, I'll do 2000 jump ropes!". Like that, superman should be saying " if i can't beat flash in a race i will do 10000 laps around the world saving everyone". "if can't beat samsung in a test of strength, i will help with construction by lifting as many buildings as i can".so on and so forth.

    Goku is the strongest dude in his universe. Rocky was the champ. People think it's bad cause,they themselves perceive it as beneath them. Nothing more. That kind of physical testing is human nature. As you said, Hurting people isn't what they enjoy. It's the endorphin release, feeling of accomplishment and knowing you broke a limit you set for yourself. Competition is how people improve. Otherwise, you are just stuck with existential boredom. Case in point, saitama and his depression.

    This godhood nonsense is why superman is perceived as boring. He was meant to be superman. Not god nor man. He isn't a standin for any kind of mahatma or saint. Enjoying the above mentioned feeling in a fight at unbelievable for audience , phenomenal and fantastic levels makes him a superman. Furthermore, i feel superman should be like luffy, allmight in that, He would charge regardless if he would get hurt himself. For instance, luffy punching through spiked barricade that pierces his hands.

    Baracade. Because charging forward recklessly when there is no otherway is what it means to be strong.

    Then there is the People that say he isn't a god. He is a dude from kansas or man(I believe he is both and neither. But, that's beside the point) . But, the want the portrayal of him as a mahatma. In fact superman would put gandhi to shame. Its cognitive dissonance. If he fashions himself as a man. Then he should have all the faults of one. You can say enjoying a good fight is one of them. After all, for men "What could be more beautiful than doing work that puts your soul at risk, because that's what it means to be alive!". Gods don't need to do that. They don't enjoy mortality. Men do.

    He is the strongest being on the planet. He isn't pushed like one. He isn't that far ahead of others nor does he challenges himself in anyway. He didn't even create that flying metropolis. A random leviathan did(which sucks) . Even if he were the strongest . He can have enough competition. The guy is partly inspired by gladiators and greek heroes . Test of strength should be something natural to him. Doing herculean tasks like making a city fly or curing a disease or having friendly and no friendly competition.But, that seen as beneath the character. Instead of that we get is drama. That's pretty bad.the sun thing also dilutes that. When the guy is on back "lo and behold" he gets plot devised out. It takes the air out everything and this why people flock to batman. Being badass or cool isn't a bad thing.

    Superman is physical specimen. If people just want reporter or writer. Then stop portraying him visually as this bulky big dude in strongman suit. Have him go out in a suit and coat to save the day. I can see people saying. Have him be scrawny, lean, guy. But, then he won't be the real clark kent. He would be the fake clumsy one.real clark, the one they call the superman respects the fake clumsy dude. But he is just a cover. He wasn't meant to be the real guy.

    Look, i can see people now going "well, i wouldn't mind that". Sure, i respect the preference. That can be an inpretation and a version like the retirement thing.but, superman character is supposed to be physical specimen. Physicality should be what he thrives in.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-11-2020 at 11:01 AM.

  6. #2406
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    I mean he already lives there. A lot gets taken from Clark, but "the big strong dude" is literally all DC seems content with letting him keep, even after they made Damage. They'll take the Legion, they'll take Brainiac and Lex, but Clark still gets to be the dude the call when they need someone to take a punch from Doomsday or arm wrestle Darkseid. They'll give us some notion about how Supergirl may be stronger, or Damage or whoever but it's usually down to Superman (he does sell more than them, generally speaking, so there's that). Doomsday Clock, The Sixth Dimension arc of Justice League recently, even that mess of an ending in DCeased showcased that Superman is not to be dealt with lightly in significance or strength.

    For my money? When Clark meets a new foe and gets thrown into a mountain or building and tastes some blood? He probably smiles so long as no innocent bystander got hurt. A challenge! Could be interesting. The setting is usually also a problem. Kal's not about to be excited someone is a physical match for him if he's at Happy Harbor or such. People around could get hurt. We don't get to see Superman enjoy his fights as much anymore because, well, the threat has escalated. Everything these days is for the fate of the multiverse. The stakes are way too high for him to not come across as a jackass for having a good time.

    If you want examples of Kal enjoying being Superman, honestly Bendis has been giving them. In Action 1006, if I recall, he winks at a kid who sees him change from Clark to Superman as a "hey, welcome in to the biggest secret in Metropolis, amigo." Clark was ripping on Toyman in his Man of Steel. He has a sense of whimsy about what he does. He enjoys being Superman. That translates to fights as well when it's not about the entire planet being at stake, but that's pretty much the only stories we get. It's always Kandor gets crushed, the world's in the phantom zone, the dark multiverse this, TBWL that. It's hard for any of the heroes to enjoy themselves anymore, not just Clark, but there are still moments where he clearly enjoys his time as Superman-- more than most heroes are getting of late.

  7. #2407
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I mean he already lives there. A lot gets taken from Clark, but "the big strong dude" is literally all DC seems content with letting him keep, even after they made Damage. They'll take the Legion, they'll take Brainiac and Lex, but Clark still gets to be the dude the call when they need someone to take a punch from Doomsday or arm wrestle Darkseid. They'll give us some notion about how Supergirl may be stronger, or Damage or whoever but it's usually down to Superman (he does sell more than them, generally speaking, so there's that). Doomsday Clock, The Sixth Dimension arc of Justice League recently, even that mess of an ending in DCeased showcased that Superman is not to be dealt with lightly in significance or strength.

    For my money? When Clark meets a new foe and gets thrown into a mountain or building and tastes some blood? He probably smiles so long as no innocent bystander got hurt. A challenge! Could be interesting. The setting is usually also a problem. Kal's not about to be excited someone is a physical match for him if he's at Happy Harbor or such. People around could get hurt. We don't get to see Superman enjoy his fights as much anymore because, well, the threat has escalated. Everything these days is for the fate of the multiverse. The stakes are way too high for him to not come across as a jackass for having a good time.

    If you want examples of Kal enjoying being Superman, honestly Bendis has been giving them. In Action 1006, if I recall, he winks at a kid who sees him change from Clark to Superman as a "hey, welcome in to the biggest secret in Metropolis, amigo." Clark was ripping on Toyman in his Man of Steel. He has a sense of whimsy about what he does. He enjoys being Superman. That translates to fights as well when it's not about the entire planet being at stake, but that's pretty much the only stories we get. It's always Kandor gets crushed, the world's in the phantom zone, the dark multiverse this, TBWL that. It's hard for any of the heroes to enjoy themselves anymore, not just Clark, but there are still moments where he clearly enjoys his time as Superman-- more than most heroes are getting of late.
    Well, how that is done is the question. He shouldn't be a plot device summoned to save the day. Herculean tasks are hard. It shouldn't be done in a day. He should struggle, lose and beaten to pulp by the challenges in front of him. Anything can be an herculean task provided it is a big enough challenge for person who conducts himself in that. "big strong dude" isn't what i am talking about. Intelligence, bravery, resilience, endurance, speed, lifting power.. Etc is also included as strength. Even physical beauty is a strength. By that i mean maintaining your body.A hero like superman who is influenced by greek thought strives for everything, while focusing on one.

    As said, they will say supergirl/damage/martian manhunter is stronger or flash is faster or batman is smarter. Superman will be perfectly fine with that. We won't see him do do anything to change that. Out of nowhere he would beat supergirl or damage . That is nonsensical writing. The writers will immediately fall back "he drank some sun protein juice bullshit". With flash or batman its even worse. He gets his ass handed to him everytime and he is perfectly fine with that. That ain't superman.

    How is that breaking a chain with you bare hands? It isn't. It's like using chainsaw to cut chain and saying "yay! i broke a chain. Ain't i strong!! ", incase of supergirl.

    In flashes or batman's case, "yeah! This chain is too damn strong. I will just leave it as is, cause i am lazy and i have no honour as a man" .its nonsense. Nobody would feel anything for a guy like that and his strength. which is nothing but hot air in both the above cases.

    Why would a superman be ok with losing a competition and staying at the same level? Shouldn't he atleast feel the lose and be ashamed of it? Nobody likes losing. I have never seen superman regret losing. It's(losing) a good teacher, if you promise yourself that you will do better next time. Otherwise a lose is meaningless. He doesn't even get penalty for losing. That is bad. If superman is honourable he would give himself penalty. As said above,
    " if i can't do 800 pushups, then i will do 1000 chinups". That should be superman's ethics. "if i lose a race, i run 10000 laps around the world saving people ". "if lose a chess match with batman, i will do ten thousand word puzzle in a second" or something of the sort.

    Him enjoying being superman isn't what i am talking about. Him enjoying being a strongman or a boxer or a runner or a gladiator or genius builder/inventor or writer is. it isn't that hard. Have him join a body building competition. He can show off his body and he can compete in that. That wouldn't be unfair.

    Just look at this. Its simple fun scene of two men talking with their bodies. Has superman comics ever tried this. Its cool. Its relatable. Its damn impressive.
    As said, he has loads of competition lois, samson, atlas, wonder woman, flash, batman, mr terrific.... Etc the list is long.he can have races, strenth challenges, wrestling matches, chess match or strategy challenge.Anything is possible. He can even build equipment and have survival challenges. For instance, Superman tries to survive living in a black hole.for no reason, other that the pure excitement and challenge of it. He can even have a match up for the best writer with lois for an award.

    This isn’t about collateral damage,either.No superman will be enjoying seeing everything get destroyed around him just so he can have a good fight. Those are different kinds of fights. Even, then as you said clark can acknowledge the strength of the opponent and relish in the feeling of mortality.

    My point is, stop treating him like the embodiment of the deadly sin sloth.Even if you do, don't pretend that it's ok. Being lazy ain't ok. "the sun can't fix everything"
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-11-2020 at 11:14 AM.

  8. #2408
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    As said, they will say supergirl/damage/martian manhunter is stronger or flash is faster or batman is smarter. Superman will be perfectly fine with that. We won't see him do do anything to change that. Out of nowhere he would beat supergirl or damage . That is nonsensical writing. The writers will immediately fall back "he drank some sun protein juice bullshit". With flash or batman its even worse. He gets his ass handed to him everytime and he is perfectly fine with that. That ain't superman.
    That has literally never happened. Superman has not used a sun dip to do any of that in association with those characters, and he doesn't mind competition with Flash because there aren't hard feelings between any of them. Why would he care about being faster than a good guy whose only power is speed... by a light speed nose as it usually is?

    The greatest competitors generally just don't allow shortcomings or defeat to have power over them. That's why there are so many characters like Damage in the toy bin and so many characters you might compare him to that don't even headline their own series. Superman is OP because he can re route and still win better than any other character. The popular "vs Goku" doesn't exist unless you make up a scenario to where Superman is only trying to take him head on. You can say that triathlon athletes aren't the most revered, but you can say that hybrid martial arts are the most respected and that Jon Jones (who is clearly outmatched in any single discipline) is realistically the "best" martial artist in the world for examples.
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  9. #2409
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    On the topic of fighting styles. I think at some point even if he didn't really think much of fighting as a sport he basically have to change his mindset once he starts running into the Phantom Zoners, Mongul, or Validus. Creatures that match or exceed his physical capabilities. It's why I was never particularly wowed by Zod as an opponent since Clark would have spent most of his life time fighting people with loads more combat experience than Zod. I think it's perfectly feasible to give Supes a fighting style with visual interest and energy that doesn't encroach on the likes of Wonder Woman, Batman, Black Canary and other top tier DC martial artist.

    If you look at characters like Marduk for Tekken or Wolf Hawkfield from Virtua Fighter you can see these guys are these big grapple heavy characters with very utilitarian in their strikes with out being boring to look at. Here's some examples of both https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixEM8Vpq7gI and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6VbW5FYopg


    Now if you take those and combine it with some boxing style like Dudley's from Street Fighter and you've got something that could probably look pretty distinct while not coming off as woo-woo martial arts specialist that's trained with the best masters in the world like The Question or Batman. Interesting without being overly fancy and I think would be an actually good way of drawing differences between him and Batman; with Bruce have entire catalogues of combat moves sitting in his head and Clark's are centered firmly around "what works and when to use it".
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  10. #2410
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Lol Marduk is a good example of why Superman should be stronger than Diana. With similar damage output between his size and her skill, he'd look D tier in the physical realm.
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  11. #2411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Lol Marduk is a good example of why Superman should be stronger than Diana. With similar damage output between his size and her skill, he'd look D tier in the physical realm.
    If size mattered in the DCU, Mongul would have killed Superman long ago.

  12. #2412
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Superman should be as fast as the Flash.

  13. #2413
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    That has literally never happened. Superman has not used a sun dip to do any of that in association with those characters, and he doesn't mind competition with Flash because there aren't hard feelings between any of them. Why would he care about being faster than a good guy whose only power is speed... by a light speed nose as it usually is?

    The greatest competitors generally just don't allow shortcomings or defeat to have power over them. That's why there are so many characters like Damage in the toy bin and so many characters you might compare him to that don't even headline their own series. Superman is OP because he can re route and still win better than any other character. The popular "vs Goku" doesn't exist unless you make up a scenario to where Superman is only trying to take him head on. You can say that triathlon athletes aren't the most revered, but you can say that hybrid martial arts are the most respected and that Jon Jones (who is clearly outmatched in any single discipline) is realistically the "best" martial artist in the world for examples.
    Why? Because he is superman and has a sense of pride . It's more than enough reasons for me. No, that isn't petty. If it were most athletes would be. Besides, running sounds like fun for clark. A man strives to be better and reach his potential . Especially, if you are superman . Superman has limitless potential. Competition is competition. A win is a win. If he treats his lose as normal thing. It proves he has no pride as a person. All i am saying, is that a competitive superman who is a little hard on his own self improvement is way more interesting.

    As for supergirl, how did he get stronger than supergirl."he was holding back, subconsciously". That means he was always stronger. How does Superman get strength? The sun. Same story. Different answer, but same story. As i have said, "the sun" and "holding back" are superman's speed force. I hate it. Sooner the character leaves it behind and solar battery explanation. The better for the character. i don't believe its essential for the character. In fact, i believe its bad for the character.

    No. They don't. But, they do take it back home for reassessment and they do feel it. They do feel bad. They do want to win the next time they compete. In superman, i see a lack of that want, the fire, the pride. They don't write him with that. Superman is op because a long time ago he(the character) was pioneer. Still is, (might not be to that extent) . Dc wants to cash in on that. So they push him, yet not enough so that he doesn't damage their other premier characters. But, my problem ain't that. They can have their hierarchy. Have batman be smarter, have flash be faster,... Etc. Kakashi is more powerful(generally. Untill, guy became the eight gates master) . But, guy's attitude doesn't change. He would always challenge and give penalty to himself. If and when he loses.

    If superman is the overdog or topdog he can take challenges. If he is underdog, he is the one challenging. Superman can have challenges. Especially in current climate where he isn't topdog. It doesn't have to emotional or drama or romance.Like i said, superman enters a body building competition or writing competition or wrestling match or chess match or a race,so on and so forth. The world is full of challenges.might be true, but it wouldn't hurt jon jones's martial arts skill if had become the best at any discipline. Infact it might even give him better edge. Diversification is great and all. but, that isn't an excuse to be "perfectly ok or being peachy with losing in all or any one". If you ask jon jones, he would say that he would like to be the best in every discipline if he can. if damage is stronger, clark should want to be stronger. If not damage, then he should atleast want to be stronger than his current self.

    If i enter an archery contest and swimming contest. And Win swimming contest, lose archery. Is It ok for me to not feel bad for winning archery and don't do anything about improving myself in that?my answer is no.
    If i do, that means either of two thing.
    One) i am not passionate about archery. In that case i should never enter again.
    two) i have no pride nor do i want to improve . Especially, if i had the potential and time.
    What i should have is the drive to win both next time.as said, give myself penalty for losing. Superman should be written to have the drive.

    What writers do generally is have superman be not passionate. "batman wins", "flash is faster", "supergirl is stronger" . yet,they have him compete with these guys again and again directly or indirectly .in which world is losing fun? If he isn't passionate about running or having strategic problems solving match, then why is he challenging the best?why is he wasting time? The answer is simple, the writers want superman to take a fall. Fine, that's ok. but, What writers are doing is making jobber out of superman.And He feels like one,which is my problem .Don't do that. Just turn him into the underdog instead of a jobber. Have him not be ok with losing. Have him give himself penalties. Show him actually working on it harder.
    As said,the above ethics of "if i can't 800 pushup, then i will do 1000 chin ups". Is the classic underdog attitude. They never say die or have never give up Attitude.
    I know superman isn't underdog type character. But, he isn't the top dog. So treating him like underdog is far better than the jobbing nonsense,when he is facing top dogs.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-11-2020 at 11:24 AM.

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    In today's climate, isn't Superman a typical all rounder? He's proficient at everything just not necessarily the top tier. When written well, this would never equate to jobbing. He does everything but he's no longer the best at everything when each ability is looked at in its singularity. In a room of super heroes, if he was the best at everything, what would be the point of having these other heroes when Superman can simply do it all by himself? I also feel like just because he's not driven to be the best at everything that it somehow means he no longer has the never say die spirit. Clark does push himself to the very last when the occasion calls for it, the issue is that not not every occasion calls for it.

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    There's definitely a sportsman-like element to Clark. He enjoys physical challenge, whether that's trying to outrace tachyons or push a continent-sized asteroid out of earth's path or beat Diana in a sparring match.

    I think he enjoys sparring, but I don't think he likes actual fighting. Clark will happily jump into the ring with Diana (and he'll even win, sometimes!) for some training that'll leave them both bloody, but I don't think he enjoys "real" violence. There's some exceptions of course, Clark will smile every time he gets to punch Mongul or Zod in the face, because he really hates those guys and knows they deserve far worse. But I don't think Clark takes any joy out of hurting people (most of the time). The sweet science of boxing, that's sport. Putting Parasite in the hospital? Not so much. He won't lose any sleep over it, but he won't be happy about it either.

    I think that probably applies to a lot of heroes, but there's plenty out there who just like hurting people too. Batman. I mean, come on, that dude *loves* breaking bones.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

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