Controversial Superman Opinions

[Johnny Thunders!]

I think you have a very idealized view of Superman that has never matched any version of the character aside from the Silver Age.

I think I just read the second to last issue of Superman where he solved a Batman crime in about 6 seconds. While he is simultaneously helping to organize a United Planets, a legacy that extends to the 30th Century where his son 'Goes to College". He can probably thumb wrestle though.

[Agent Z]

He is right. It isn't idealised. It is the bare minimum . He is supposed to be post human. Silverage guy is a superman. Unlike postcrisis or any other versions, silverage guy had the creator himself working on him. So he is more superman. He can't be swept under the rug. What's the point of everyman superman, that too every damn time? I hate the notion that superman is just a dude with powers. The powers are him. Superman is his being. A superman who calls himself kal el would be refreshing.

What the hell does post human even mean? And don't you have to be human in the first place for that to work. Superman is not the only high powered hero in the DCU let alone comics. The superman you and Johnny Thunders describe isn't a character so much as random collection of feats.

Okay, how many times has it happened to harley quinn, bruce wayne, wonder woman lately, barry allen... Etc?

About as often as it has happened to Superman. Though I can't recall Harley being mind controlled. Either way, this idea Superman is the ultimate jobber is provably false.

[JackDaw]

What the hell does post human even mean? And don't you have to be human in the first place for that to work. Superman is not the only high powered hero in the DCU let alone comics. The superman you and Johnny Thunders describe isn't a character so much as random collection of feats.



About as often as it has happened to Superman. Though I can't recall Harley being mind controlled. Either way, this idea Superman is the ultimate jobber is provably false.

Probably “ultimate jobber” is the wrong term...he wins in the end, and has oodles of mega impressive feats.

But he’s probably the guy most defined and limited by other heroes in modern DC. He can’t be as intelligent as Batman. He can’t be as fast as the Flash. He can’t have the warrior skills of Wonder Woman. And so on, and so forth.

He’s been the very good man at lots of things, rather than Superman for a long time now...

The intellect aspect is really, really odd. The man of the future should be a genius, shouldn’t he??

[Agent Z]

Probably “ultimate jobber” is the wrong term...he wins in the end, and has oodles of mega impressive feats.

But he’s probably the guy most defined and limited by other heroes in modern DC. He can’t be as intelligent as Batman. He can’t be as fast as the Flash. He can’t have the warrior skills of Wonder Woman. And so on, and so forth.

He’s been the very good man at lots of things, rather than Superman for a long time now...

The intellect aspect is really, really odd. The man of the future should be a genius, shouldn’t he??

Why does he need to be those things when he is already listed as the strongest, the most powerful, the most important, the most heroic, the most pure etc. It isn't as if there aren't plenty of other areas where he succeeds and it hasn't stopped DC from prioritizing him over anyone who isn't named Batman.

[marhawkman]

There's definitely a sportsman-like element to Clark. He enjoys physical challenge, whether that's trying to outrace tachyons or push a continent-sized asteroid out of earth's path or beat Diana in a sparring match.

I think he enjoys sparring, but I don't think he likes actual fighting. Clark will happily jump into the ring with Diana (and he'll even win, sometimes!) for some training that'll leave them both bloody, but I don't think he enjoys "real" violence. There's some exceptions of course, Clark will smile every time he gets to punch Mongul or Zod in the face, because he really hates those guys and knows they deserve far worse. But I don't think Clark takes any joy out of hurting people (most of the time). The sweet science of boxing, that's sport. Putting Parasite in the hospital? Not so much. He won't lose any sleep over it, but he won't be happy about it either.

I think that probably applies to a lot of heroes, but there's plenty out there who just like hurting people too. Batman. I mean, come on, that dude *loves* breaking bones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d26N0VgYhg

Yeah if it's a real fight vs someone who needs to be stopped from hurting others? Clark gets mean. He doesn't LIKE that sort of combat though. He'd be more happy to challenge Darkseid or Zod to an MMA bout that to fight for the safety of Metropolis. But while he'd like to do that, he doesn't get that option often. Heck, when Mongul came to Earth and actually challenged Superman to a friendly sparring match Superman was happy to accept. He was a bit wary, it's MONGUL, but he accepted.

[JackDaw]

Why does he need to be those things when he is already listed as the strongest, the most powerful, the most important, the most heroic, the most pure etc. It isn't as if there aren't plenty of other areas where he succeeds and it hasn't stopped DC from prioritizing him over anyone who isn't named Batman.

Because without...those things..a lot of the things you cite (e.g. “most important”) don’t make sense inside the fictional DC universe.

Let me give an obvious example. If Batman is routinely written as far more intelligent than him...why would JLA look to him for leadership?

I know the “stock answer” to that “he is purer, more idealistic, etc”. But to me his moral values seem practically identical to all the other main DC heroes..I don’t see any substantial difference.

But...of course...none of it makes sense really. A real Superman would become an engineer or doctor, become a real hero by helping the most people.

[Agent Z]

Because without...those things..a lot of the things you cite (e.g. “most important”) don’t make sense inside the fictional DC universe.

Let me give an obvious example. If Batman is routinely written as far more intelligent than him...why would JLA look to him for leadership?

Bruce's intelligence in the League revolves around tech and gadgets. That is a very different sort of intelligence than what is needed for leadership.

And how does being the fastest or best fighter make him more important? It sure doesn't help Flash or Wonder Woman in that department.

But...of course...none of it makes sense really. A real Superman would become an engineer or doctor, become a real hero by helping the most people.

A real Superman wouldn't be fighting period. For all the talk about how Superman is an idol, most of his stories amount to beating up villains, same as any other superhero.

[manwhohaseverything]

original text here.

Nah! Not really. I have never seen modern clark be like "yeah! I did something" or be like "****! I lost. I need reassess my priorities and get better" . Against batam, yeah! That is true. But, gets his ass kicked. Should he be ok with that? I wouldn't be. If my friend starts kicking my ass every damn time and if i am helpless every time. Then it is time i start kicking back, if i have any pride. There is so much to the face a guy can take. Batman is "the strategist" right. Well, he ain't the man of tomorrow . Superman should and could start playing his game. He might lose. But, at the very least it wouldn't feel like a guy who half assed, underestimated his opponent and got his ass kicked. It might not be fun. But, writers need to start writing the character like that. I would take an underdog superman, over a jobber superman. That has always been my complaint. If he really thinks batman is dangerous. Then superman should start treating him as such. Sure, they are friends. But, bruce is same as lex and much more put together .Clark is basically defenseless. He doesn't even care.Now,it isn't just restricted to his safety. He has a son. How is he going to protect his family from the bat? . That's talking nonfriendly competition. Friendly one's can also happen. A guy like clark who is looking to breaks chains and limits should always look for a challenge. Bruce is a perfect challenge. And i am not talking about punching fest.

no! absolutely not! no sun-dip nonsense!That isn't herculean task. It's clark being used as Deus ex machina. Real herculean feats, that matter like constructing flying city, curing incurable diseases, finding life on europa, creating a colony for people on mars and revitalising the martian civilisation,finding a better renewable energy sources, creating a better battery.. Etc. They need to do both the new krypton arc and united planets thing in a way that isn't just good, but absolutely great.

Herculean tasks are thing that is a challenge. It can be one and done thing, but those tasks should be in small number and can even be a stepping stone. Otherwise, a real Herculean task should have build up. it can even be long series of say 50 or 100 issue. It should run in the background always while clark is out doing his normal thing, when needed is brought to front. It's like,hercules trying to redeem himself or perseus's quests or Icberg in one piece manga trying to make his island float in water or robin trying to find a part of history or nami trying to draw a world map. It's essentially, a big end goal. which protagonist is on quest for or is trying achieve by finishing or completing smaller(comparatively) tasks. A herculean task is completing the twelve labours.

No, he is trying to improve himself and breaking chains.

For that he needs motivation. Being ok with losing is not staying motivated. how is it a punishment? Its a self rule.here, at @1:22

"you are applying the self rule in a wrong way. Doing 500 laps would qualify you to the vacant place in the academy? That's not self-rule. You impose self rule to keep yourself to spur you on and help you overcome a difficult challenge or situation. So, even if you fail applying that rule keeps you extremely disciplined and focused. Even if you make it half way,Effort is effort."


In Clark's case, it would be being the fastest man alive, most intelligent man or the strongest.. Etc all of it(superman duh!) . Outcome isn't what matters. Failure is welcome. at the same time, the attitude should be "it is not ok to stay a failure" . Clark's current attitude is "who cares" that wouldn't be a problem. But, then he goes competing and essentially looking like an lazy idiot. Atleast, if clark is written like guy. He would lose as an underdog who put in his sweat. You know, like this.

Yeah! I know it doesn't look good. But maybe it's not meant to. For me, seeing superman trying his damn best and earnestly,should be a given. Not once in a life time story. It should be part of the character.A superman doesn't cheat and he always tries to improve himself. Break that limit and chain.

He is doing it for his own benefit. He isn't doing it for someone else.

If a guy who wants an A gets a B and isn't unhappy that's cool. Then he should stop aiming for an A because he clearly doesn't want it.if you want something you give it your all and more. You go beyond, plus ultra.you enter tournaments, not for participation price . But to win. Otherwise, he is just settling because he wants it, is unhappy and doesn't do a damn thing to change the outcome. he isn't going to get better grade by being ok with current one. If he has potential, he is basically wasting it. I don't think a superman would do that. Superman isn't the former either(someone who is happy with a B) . Because he is always asks barry for a race gets his ass handed to him. He tries to be the best writer but isn't because he gets beat by lois.he tries to take lex or bruce by surprise. Well, that hasn't happened, yet. So on and so forth. Yet, he is perfectly ok with all these L and never does anything to change that. If superman isn't the overdog or topdog anymore, that's fine. What i refuse to have is a superman who is jobber. I would take him being the underdog than that.

Barry might be the fastest man alive. But he isn't The superman.That's a false equivalence. Batman has no potential nor does he have the drive to beat silverage superman. But, superman has. The idea that superman doesn't have the potential is preposterous. If mere man wants to be the best. Its a forgone conclusion a superman would want that for himself.Superman's best is equal or more than barry or speed force itself can handle.

i don't know flash can do what he used to do. He would just be behind superman. I am just being funny(with tad bit seriousness) . Besides, i don't care if superman wins or loses. But,his attitude towards losing is what i can't stand.it' s bad attitude. It is certifiable jobbers attitude. I hate superman being written as a jobber.

Yeah! That's insult to injury. I wouldn't joke about getting my ass kicked over and over again. Especially, when i can do something about it. Maybe one time, it's fine. Not always.

Dude, what's wrong with being a shonen protagonist? And stereotypical shonen archetype, goku has like directly to superman. He has connection to astroboy. And countless shonen characters. Suoerman and shonen has a connection more than any other hero. shonen protagonist give something better to aspire to and are incredibly relatable . Something superman should be.

And i never said make superman fight obsessed, that's your own assumption(btw, shonen protagonists don't put fights before everything else, that's just goku.he is a saiyan. He is meant to be. Talk no jutsu is a thing. Elric brothers are thing. Thorfinn is a thing. Even ichigo and luffy aren't that. They just don't mind being in one).luffy and allmight especially have a lot of goldenage superman in them. As for overreacting, i would take that over not reacting or bad reaction Especially in this case. Even that, isn't what i am talking about. The penalty isn't an overreacting, its a natural reaction. Athletes do that. 10000 laps around the world isn't much of a punishment for superman. Its bare minimum . Superman putting in an effort and being passionate isn't sin. So what if he doesn't look like a saint who is above competition . It doesn't matter. Superman wasn't meant to be that anyways. It's the ethics and philosophy that matter.Furthermore, i am not asking to make superman shonen. But to make superman an action hero. You know, as in action comics.

Again, you seem to be under the impression that i want superman to be best at everything in every day story telling. That isn't what i am talking about. My problem is strictly the character's attitude and how its Written, which makes him look like a jobber. If i am being harsh, i would call him a wimp. Not because he loses. But, because he considers himself above the effort and the want to win. A superman isn't a wimp. I can't believe i am even criticising the character for being that. It boggles my mind, how i wierd superman has become as a character.And for what? Wierd notions of sainthood to be applied to the character .People need to realise that, Winning at all costs is bad attitude.hating losing isn't a bad attitude.There is a difference . Nobody likes loosing.

So yeah! Down with the jobber. Make him the underdog,if he isn't on the top.

[JackDaw]

A real Superman wouldn't be fighting period. For all the talk about how Superman is an idol, most of his stories amount to beating up villains, same as any other superhero.

I agree. (I almost put “you’re right”..but I suppose we’re both just making subjective judgments.)

And the more I think about other stuff you’ve argued in this thread (that being fastest, strongest, most intelligent isn’t really key to the character)...the more I start to agree with “your other stuff”).

[Agent Z]

I agree. (I almost put “you’re right”..but I suppose we’re both just making subjective judgments.)

And the more I think about other stuff you’ve argued in this thread (that being fastest, strongest, most intelligent isn’t really key to the character)...the more I start to agree with “your other stuff”).

Thank you. 10 chars.

[manwhohaseverything]

What the hell does post human even mean? And don't you have to be human in the first place for that to work. Superman is not the only high powered hero in the DCU let alone comics. The superman you and Johnny Thunders describe isn't a character so much as random collection of feats.



About as often as it has happened to Superman. Though I can't recall Harley being mind controlled. Either way, this idea Superman is the ultimate jobber is provably false.

Post human, means he is faaaar advanced version of a human. So much so that he feels like a god. Sheesh! A snyder fan should know that. "he will be a god to them". Think of yourself with current capacity living with people 20000 years ago. Powered hero is just phenomenal disservice to the character. Second, true feats were important in that era. But, that wasn't all. Superman was written to be the man of tomorrow. his outlook on things along with the fantastic away from the mundane is what mattered.

You are joking, right. harley the "i will beatup trinity for laughs" quinn or bat "cashcow" man jobbing as much as superman. Yeah! Right.Superman doesn't need to be ultimate jobber. The fact that he is one at all is bad. Make him an underdog if you can't have him win.
Also, losing and jobbing are two different things.

[manwhohaseverything]

Why does he need to be those things when he is already listed as the strongest, the most powerful, the most important, the most heroic, the most pure etc. It isn't as if there aren't plenty of other areas where he succeeds and it hasn't stopped DC from prioritizing him over anyone who isn't named Batman.

It depends. Can you do this story with "Jack of all trades, master of none" superman?

Superman being "master of all" and being the object of hate, envy... Etc is very cool.

You can do it with a superman who is leagues above his friends and colleagues, even in the things they specialise in like the silverage guy. Can you do a story like one punch man with your superman? I don't think so.

Bruce's intelligence in the League revolves around tech and gadgets. That is a very different sort of intelligence than what is needed for leadership.

And how does being the fastest or best fighter make him more important? It sure doesn't help Flash or Wonder Woman in that department.



A real Superman wouldn't be fighting period. For all the talk about how Superman is an idol, most of his stories amount to beating up villains, same as any other superhero.

Wow! What would he do? Stand there while bullies take over . Please,fighting is what superman is about. Fighting for truth and justice that is. He is made into an idol because of jesus allegories started by and popularised by film makers like donner and comics code. Otherwise, he is an alien vigilante strongman. That's it. Nothing more and nothing less. And it isn't that superman does what other superheroes do. It's actually the reverse. Superheroes beat up supervillains cause superman beats up bullys.

[Johnny Thunders!]

Anyone seen the first Spiderman, Aunt May turns to Parker and says, "You can't do it all, you're not Superman." Superman is literally the one character that can say, wait, "I am Superman."
Can Mongul fight, can General Zod, what about Lobo? And as to 'a real Superman wouldn't fight". I think All Star Superman follows that move as did the Brandon Routh and Chris Reeve's Superman.

[Kuwagaton]

No, i am not. Superman is treated nothing without the sun. If he doesn't get it he loses. That just feels hollow.

This is just the thing I don't get. In general, it's made pretty clear that dwindling powers or none is something he can definitely work around and that he always expects to pull his own weight.

My points are :
1)he needs pride in competitions.those do happen.it is'nt just fights with villains all the time.
2)there are tons of herculean tasks like building a flying city, challenges like surviving inside a black hole and opponents like Mr terrific , barry.. Etc. Superman doesn't challenge himself,nearly as much as i would like him to.
3)clark needs penalties for evertime he loses. "if i lose a race to barry, i would take 10000 laps across the world"

I don't think a competitive Superman is really bad. I just don't think it really goes with his character to be concerned. The times we've seen him take pride are the times we saw him shrivel, like his early encounters with Mongul or Hellspont.

My head cannon has always been that Superman's not as skilled as he could be, but that people can't tell the difference. He hasn't spent the time developing combat techniques that most martial artists do, in favor of perfecting skills that help people. That said, he's so bloody fast, and a genius to boot, that he's able to analyze and respond quickly enough that it looks pretty skilled. Against a kryptonian that is highly trained, he should get mopped unless he can outsmart them (which, usually, he can because, again, he's a genius, even among kryptonians).

It's like the race with Flash thing. If they're so close down to the very last fraction of a second, it's not a slight against Superman because that's virtually the same. Winning by a nose at light speed is never going to matter.

Of course Superman can fight! It would take him, I don't know, 1/2 an hour to learn every combat technique in Earth's history? I just don't get how people see Superman. Everything a human being can do, Superman can do at an incalculable level of Superhuman skill. Draw, paint, write, swim, cook, etc... And if you think about how his brain would work, how it would process information, coupled with how he can perceive time and dimensions, I bet he knows Capoeira.

Yeah, I don't think being well rounded and not the sort of specialist we see with others is a disadvantage, with all there is to learn and apply. Whether he can retain all that or not. Although retaining all that means tricky writing.

Probably “ultimate jobber” is the wrong term...he wins in the end, and has oodles of mega impressive feats.

But heÂ’s probably the guy most defined and limited by other heroes in modern DC. He canÂ’t be as intelligent as Batman. He canÂ’t be as fast as the Flash. He canÂ’t have the warrior skills of Wonder Woman. And so on, and so forth.

HeÂ’s been the very good man at lots of things, rather than Superman for a long time now...

The intellect aspect is really, really odd. The man of the future should be a genius, shouldnÂ’t he??

Intellect is a push and pull, especially as we see here. He should be a genius, he should work to be the best... but those things re opposites. Super intelligence is a power, not a quality. Being from Krypton is what makes him the man of the future. But if you take away intelligence as a power and he's just a very smart guy (NOT the same as Batman, who emphasizes different things as intelligence is a very broad thing) and it's... not good enough?

On the other end of the spectrum there's the Up in the Sky pandering. To where every other hero falls before a generic threat and prays for Superman to save them, which he easily does.

[manwhohaseverything]

This is just the thing I don't get. In general, it's made pretty clear that dwindling powers or none is something he can definitely work around and that he always expects to pull his own weight.







I don't think a competitive Superman is really bad. I just don't think it really goes with his character to be concerned. The times we've seen him take pride are the times we saw him shrivel, like his early encounters with Mongul or Hellspont.

Yeah! While those moments where he is shown to be competent without the sun is there and writers that write superman like that exist. But, generally speaking they don't follow that. They follow things like this:

And this is the general perception.

Him not bowing to the likes of helspont or zod is sort of like defiant pride. That isn't exactly the kind of pride i am talking about. My kinda pride comes from not wanting to loose. No that isn't a bad thing. You don't need a reason for not wanting to loose. Because loosing is no fun. Especially, loosing in something you are passionate and enjoy doing. And passion is something superman has in spades. I don't see clark doing something he isn't passionate about.