Controversial Superman Opinions

[SiegePerilous02]

It was never supposed to be "high quality elevated literature" and I think there's a huge problem with thinking somehow it's supposed to be. Like that was never what Siegel or Shuster set themselves up to believe and the genre/medium hasn't really supported that intentionally.

Whose saying it had to be? That was nowhere in my statement. It's just that pre-Crisis or post-Crisis, they are both mostly filled with comics that are just average relative to the time period they were created in. And post-Crisis isn't any less immune to people being blinded by nostalgia over it then pre-Crisis is.

So it comes down to which version of the character/mythos you prefer.

[Kuwagaton]

Whose saying it had to be? That was nowhere in my statement. It's just that pre-Crisis or post-Crisis, they are both mostly filled with comics that are just average relative to the time period they were created in. And post-Crisis isn't any less immune to people being blinded by nostalgia over it then pre-Crisis is.

So it comes down to which version of the character/mythos you prefer.

I'm not saying you did, I only quoted you because you brought it up. My real pushback is just against the waves of deathly serious comics that seem to have an obligation to be profound or edgy. If they're all Watchmen then none of them are Watchmen, y'know?

Pre Crisis stories were good because they effectively hit children's stories with a hiding in plain sight quirkiness. Post Crisis was good because the storytelling took on a little more sophistication while pushing back and lampshading aspects of the industry filling with aging readers and spectators.

Both eras are underrated IMO for doing largely what makes shonen so popular. Dated sure but I have to say it can be charming too.

[Filbert]

My controversial opinion is that there was no way to save the pre-Crisis Superman without starting a good decade before COIE and throw out the entire editorial staff and ignore most of his SA mythos. Hope you're not too attached to superbaby or Krypto!

...You mean the 1971 retool when Julius Schwartz became editor? Post-Crisis Superman wasn't such a break from Bronze Age Superman.

[superduperman]

...You mean the 1971 retool when Julius Schwartz became editor? Post-Crisis Superman wasn't such a break from Bronze Age Superman.

I'm afraid they would have had to do more than that. Like actually letting the relationship between him and Lois actually progress. Krypto, Superboy, superbaby, Kandor, all the wacky villains? All those would have to be thrown out. Marvel was eating DC's lunch back then. All the silly stuff that saved them after the code was put in place was killing them by then. For all intents and purposes it would be the post-Crisis version in all but origin.

[Johnny Thunders!]

I disagree, in a skilled storytellers hand all that stuff can be whatever you want. You can tell kid stories or get really bizarre. Alan Moore uses Miracle Man to have super dogs, super babies, legions of superheroes to tell a truly epic story. And in someways, it recreates the wonder of those silver age tropes, but for adults. It all depends on how you use those ideas. Jonathan Hickmans Fantastic Four also shows how the most outrageous Silver/Age Superman ideas still work when you really try and push the imagination of those concepts.

[Stanlos]

The grass is always greener. By 1984 Superman had almost fallen out of the top 100 for sales. We're talking about years that produced Sword of Superman, the Alan Moore stories, #400, etc.

I recently learned that Alan Moore wrote For The Man Who Has Everything with Supergirl and not Wonder Woman. Because of the Editors plans for Crisis, Wonder Woman was substituted at the last minute. Do you think we will ever see the story with Supergirl swapped in as originally intended?

[SiegePerilous02]

I'm afraid they would have had to do more than that. Like actually letting the relationship between him and Lois actually progress. Krypto, Superboy, superbaby, Kandor, all the wacky villains? All those would have to be thrown out. Marvel was eating DC's lunch back then. All the silly stuff that saved them after the code was put in place was killing them by then. For all intents and purposes it would be the post-Crisis version in all but origin.

Kandor was written out in the 70s, they could have killed Krypto off like they did Kara or simply found another way to write him out, and was Superboy ever that much of a problem? He carried a TV show even after the Superboy era was retconned out by Crisis.

I can understand putting these things on the back burner for a while to try new things out to reinvigorate the character, that has to periodically be done with every character. But I don't understand this entitled mentality that existed/still exists that old concepts and characters can't just be ignored, but erased to make an IP viable.

[Kuwagaton]

Well, the sales pitch was that you didn't have to read any single other title before the reboot, that you could have it all, and that it was successful indicated that it was the right call.

Hopefully we get some Bronze age material with the new movie because the Epic Collection riff and the new silver age omnibus... I won't hold my breath with those

I recently learned that Alan Moore wrote For The Man Who Has Everything with Supergirl and not Wonder Woman. Because of the Editors plans for Crisis, Wonder Woman was substituted at the last minute. Do you think we will ever see the story with Supergirl swapped in as originally intended?

I can't imagine any planet where anyone considers making a change to that story.

[Primal Slayer]

Superman should be slower than The Flash.

Can't survive that long in Space or deepest ocean depths without proper gear.

[Agent Z]

Well, the sales pitch was that you didn't have to read any single other title before the reboot, that you could have it all, and that it was successful indicated that it was the right call.

Hopefully we get some Bronze age material with the new movie because the Epic Collection riff and the new silver age omnibus... I won't hold my breath with those



I can't imagine any planet where anyone considers making a change to that story.

You mean like the JLU writers did?

[Kuwagaton]

I mean an adaptation is going to have some differences for sure. So will riffs like Rebirth's Trinity... but I just don't think anyone wants to tweak the original

[Stanlos]

Well, the sales pitch was that you didn't have to read any single other title before the reboot, that you could have it all, and that it was successful indicated that it was the right call.

Hopefully we get some Bronze age material with the new movie because the Epic Collection riff and the new silver age omnibus... I won't hold my breath with those



I can't imagine any planet where anyone considers making a change to that story.

The change is what we saw and what didn't make sense. I walked away from it on the first read musing 'I thought Alan Moore was smart--why would he think the the four heroes were of the same species?" And also, how could he so poop on WW? I was further perplexed when I encountered his later works where there were female supers in the upper echelon and he handled them well. I kept wondering 'So what was it about WW that made him go the reductive path?"

Turns out, he never did.

It was Supergirl, who is the same species as Supes and so what we would make sense as she isn't finished growing. The Robin crush also becomes less Icky and weird since Supergirl is a teen as well.

So, who might want to see it in its original form? WW fans, Supergirl fans, and Alan Moore fans would be populations where the interest most obviously rests. But I would think there would be some Superman fans who might find joy and some sorrow in seeing Kal return to the battle so forcefully to defend his cousin especially with what we know happened in Crisis looming.

[Stanlos]

As for controversial opinions, the Flash is NOT faster as Superman (or the other two Can Dos). Yup, I said it--he got there first and his having it doesn't diminish the ability and effectiveness of the Flashes as specialists.

And no conventional human tech can incapacitate Superman.

[SiegePerilous02]

Well, the sales pitch was that you didn't have to read any single other title before the reboot, that you could have it all, and that it was successful indicated that it was the right call.

Hopefully we get some Bronze age material with the new movie because the Epic Collection riff and the new silver age omnibus... I won't hold my breath with those



I can't imagine any planet where anyone considers making a change to that story.

Did it's success have to do specifically with dumping everything, or a (at the time) hot commodity like John Byrne coming onto the title and overhauling it?

Because stuff like Kara and the Kryptonian Zod found their way back and stuck around, while their post-Crisis revamps have fallen into limbo and aren't coming back any time soon. The ideas from the reboot that were sustainable weren't really contingent on the other stuff being wiped out.

[Kuwagaton]

I'd have to imagine they were all factors since they can't be separated. The stuff that reverted back to a "classic" status quo tended to take a good 15 years