Controversial Superman Opinions

[DochaDocha]

I think that Superman and Barda were interrupted before they actually had sex?

While I don't recall the actual dialogue, I think it was written in a way such that the reader would believe it wasn't the first take that got interrupted.

[manwhohaseverything]

Interesting. Lashina was always my favorite Fury, after Barda, because of her stint feigning amnesia in Suicide Squad. Because of that, I can imagine that she might actually be a more subversive mate for Superman than many other choices. She might make him into more of a rebel than Daddy Darkseid had intended!

They were about to have a kid together or they had plans for something like that.

[Kuwagaton]

Man, nobody *today* is equipped to deal with current events!

Unfortunately a good point.

I mean I know all that, I just think the nature of the landlock is contrived and stupid. It's not literally for no reason in universe, but it is literally true that the real reason is because the writers thought they were being cleverer than I think they really were.

Guess it's different tropes for different folks. I like the idea of a society so landlocked that it kicks its citizens asses for setting sights beyond the border. A little fantastic and a little realistic. That probably does it for me even if the execution really isn't that clever. But no matter how you put it, there's a massive suspension of disbelief needed to roll with a genius planet just dying in a way that wouldn't even kill us according to the same universe.

To me, the reduction of Superman and Mongul's powers hurt this basic concept, but so does Darkseid's unwarranted evolution into a brawler himself, which I just don't really think works for that original Kirby character, as much as DC has sunk more time and effort into making us think that Darkseid should be able to fight Superman to a standstill.

I think the problem with Darkseid was that he might lose the battle to win the war, and that lended itself to just having him lose the battle and begone. It'd be a rough stretch going up to FC without Simonson's Orion to do right by the new gods

Let's go back to that L.E.G.I.O.N. '90 Annual # 1. In the "Part 1" of that story, from Adventures of Superman Annual # 2, Superman seems kind of self-righteous, he's too eager to jump to conclusions, takes too long to listen to the L.E.G.I.O.N. characters, and makes no secret of not wanting them around, or so it seemed to me. There's one cool moment that focuses on Lar Gand and Superman teaming up, I guess. By contrast, in the L.E.G.I.O.N. Annual, Superman does come across as a little stiff, but I also feel like he's got more emotional maturity than anyone else in that issue. The Man of Steel's presence is treated with a kind of respect I'm sort of surprised to say I didn't see in his own title. The question of whether you agree with him or with Dox is still an open one, but he doesn't come across as being so self-righteous - more like he's got moral clarity on his own code of ethics.

In other words, I think the post-Crisis Superman got a little too turned around in the update, and got a little too far from "the sensational find of 1938", haha!

The bottom line for me there is that people seem to have slept on Alan Grant. But I think Superman is a bit of Charlton Heston anyway (squinty eyed classic or in Exile get up) and aside from that, kind of a bonehead every once in a while. Not hard for me to see it as the same guy who used to go around "teaching a lesson" whether he took a high ground without challenge or had it blow up in his face like Mon El.

Did he get with Lori Lemaris in college? Or did her physiology prevent that?

Clark’s college years are rarely touched on. What comics should I read that showcased them?

Historically most issues explaining Lori, the secret years mini series from the mid 80s, the World of Metropolis mini series a few years after, the 1990 Superboy series (in its own canon), Action Comics #655 back up feature, Superman the Odyssey, the zero issues from 1994, and Camelot Falls iirc all involve his college career. The recent Year One spent a good bit of time taking us through it.

I think that Superman and Barda were interrupted before they actually had sex?

Yeah Superman was spared from the action. Poor Barda though is implied to not be so lucky. Editorial failure letting Byrne do that imo.

[Will Evans]

Unfortunately a good point.



Guess it's different tropes for different folks. I like the idea of a society so landlocked that it kicks its citizens asses for setting sights beyond the border. A little fantastic and a little realistic. But no matter how you put it, there's a massive suspension of disbelief needed to roll with a genius planet just dying in a way that wouldn't even kill us according to the same universe.



I think the problem with Darkseid was that he might lose the battle to win the war, and that lended itself to just having him lose the battle and begone. It'd be a rough stretch going up to FC without Simonson's Orion to do right by the new gods



The bottom line for me there is that people seem to have slept on Alan Grant. But I think Superman is a bit of Charlton Heston anyway (squinty eyed classic or in Exile get up) and aside from that, kind of a bonehead every once in a while. Not hard for me to see it as the same guy who used to go around "teaching a lesson" whether he took a high ground without challenge or had it blow up in his face like Mon El.



Historically most issues explaining Lori, the secret years mini series from the mid 80s, the World of Metropolis mini series a few years after, the 1990 Superboy series (in its own canon), Action Comics #655 back up feature, Superman the Odyssey, the zero issues from 1994, and Camelot Falls iirc all involve his college career. The recent Year One spent a good bit of time taking us through it.



Yeah Superman was spared from the action. Poor Barda though is implied to not be so lucky. Editorial failure letting Byrne do that imo.

What does that mean?

[Adekis]

Guess it's different tropes for different folks. I like the idea of a society so landlocked that it kicks its citizens asses for setting sights beyond the border. A little fantastic and a little realistic. That probably does it for me even if the execution really isn't that clever. But no matter how you put it, there's a massive suspension of disbelief needed to roll with a genius planet just dying in a way that wouldn't even kill us according to the same universe.

Yeah. I just can't get behind that detail - or the post-Crisis anti-Krypton approach to begin with.

I'm always kind of torn on the post-Crisis Krypton to begin with. On the one hand, it actually feels kind of alien, which is a cool contrast to pre-Crisis Krypton being largely middle America with Flash Gordon tech and forty years worth of mythology to give it depth. On the other hand, post-Crisis Krypton sucks. It's common knowledge that Byrne wanted to design a world so unpleasant that Superman would largely divorce himself from it, and he did. I definitely don't love that - and yet it seems to me that in the years since 1986, it's been extremely rare to balance both approaches. Grant Morrison vaguely approaches "alien but wonderful," but that's basically just down to filtering the pre-Crisis version through Morrison's general spacey-ness. The pre-Crisis era and parts of Rebirth tend to treat Krypton as more like "The Donner Version but Everyone Wears Colors," which I find kind of lazy. And obviously Zack Snyder's Krypton is mainly shown as a sort of cautionary tale regarding the environment, which... 95/100, but I still just prefer the idea that Superman would actually like Krypton, and wish it hadn't blown up.

I think the one guy who would have really nailed this "alien but wonderful" feeling I want to see in Krypton is Tim Burton. As they say in The Death of Superman Lives documentary, there would be this sense of enormous loss, that as lucky as Clark is, even being a Superman would somehow be sad in comparison. He'd have a sense that he missed out on being a part of something really special because he wasn't able to grow up on Krypton. And in the concept art, well, it's easy to see that it's the farthest thing from middle America with Flash Gordon tech.

I guess I digress, but I do wish that Superman Lives had gotten made. At worst, it still would have been really interesting and unique. Maybe that counts as a controversial opinion, I don't know.

[Robanker]

While I don't recall the actual dialogue, I think it was written in a way such that the reader would believe it wasn't the first take that got interrupted.

Scott doesn't hate Clark last I checked, so I'm going to assume he didn't have sex with Mr. Miracle's wife. Mind controlled or not, I don't think Scott would ever get over that.

But they seem good, so I think it didn't happen. I should read those issues some day. I skipped them way back when because the whole thing sounded really gross.

[Kuwagaton]

Yeah it's completely water under the bridge for them right after. The real problem is when Sleez grabs Barda and threatens her, she says "no, not again." I flat out hate that implication, I think it's Byrne's worst move by far with regular superheroes and shouldn't have made it to print. Byrne is a massive Fourth World fan, but our intro to Barda is getting sexually assaulted by a troll in a sewer? No. I guess it's vaguely similar to what Perez did with the beginning of Wonder Woman, but as she's just a cameo character it's incredibly short sighted.

Yeah. I just can't get behind that detail - or the post-Crisis anti-Krypton approach to begin with.

I'm always kind of torn on the post-Crisis Krypton to begin with. On the one hand, it actually feels kind of alien, which is a cool contrast to pre-Crisis Krypton being largely middle America with Flash Gordon tech and forty years worth of mythology to give it depth. On the other hand, post-Crisis Krypton sucks. It's common knowledge that Byrne wanted to design a world so unpleasant that Superman would largely divorce himself from it, and he did. I definitely don't love that - and yet it seems to me that in the years since 1986, it's been extremely rare to balance both approaches. Grant Morrison vaguely approaches "alien but wonderful," but that's basically just down to filtering the pre-Crisis version through Morrison's general spacey-ness. The pre-Crisis era and parts of Rebirth tend to treat Krypton as more like "The Donner Version but Everyone Wears Colors," which I find kind of lazy. And obviously Zack Snyder's Krypton is mainly shown as a sort of cautionary tale regarding the environment, which... 95/100, but I still just prefer the idea that Superman would actually like Krypton, and wish it hadn't blown up.

I think the one guy who would have really nailed this "alien but wonderful" feeling I want to see in Krypton is Tim Burton. As they say in The Death of Superman Lives documentary, there would be this sense of enormous loss, that as lucky as Clark is, even being a Superman would somehow be sad in comparison. He'd have a sense that he missed out on being a part of something really special because he wasn't able to grow up on Krypton. And in the concept art, well, it's easy to see that it's the farthest thing from middle America with Flash Gordon tech.

I guess I digress, but I do wish that Superman Lives had gotten made. At worst, it still would have been really interesting and unique. Maybe that counts as a controversial opinion, I don't know.

Probably not a surprise at all, but I love post Crisis Krypton. Tricky thing is that the problems with it are the things that make it interesting. It feels like some people limit it to that infamous monologue from Man of Steel but that's not even Byrne's last word on it. IMO it's about the best Fahrenheit riff (complete with a foreword from Bradbury and a published edition from Ballantine) that gets less muddled when it comes to working out the caution of the tale.

Not that I don't like older takes or hugely respect all the neat lore packed in by Bridwell. But at length a lot of that to me felt more like a glossary for the story than an actual sidestory.

Someone like Burton, with a strong vision, sounds good but I never even began to look into what could have been. Cage as Superman just creeps me out.

[Will Evans]

Pre-Crisis there was World of Krypton, the first ever miniseries, right?


How did it portray Krypton?

[Kuwagaton]

Like it could hardly be more different than the second series with that same name, haha. Jor El is pretty much the model Kryptonian and lacking the physicality, makes for a adventure star more like a pulp character than Superman predecessor

[Vordan]

From what I recall, Byrne had beef with Kirby and he decided to screw with Kirby by having Barda (modeled after Kirby’s wife iirc) be forced into a porno as a way of giving Kirby the finger.

[SiegePerilous02]

From what I recall, Byrne had beef with Kirby and he decided to screw with Kirby by having Barda (modeled after Kirby’s wife iirc) be forced into a porno as a way of giving Kirby the finger.

It would seem odd for Byrne to have a grudge against Kirby but insist on using his creations a lot (like using the Demon to a ridiculous degree in Wonder Woman). And using an expy of Kirby's real life wife in such a story is particularly gross.

Not to say I don't think there isn't a possibility it's true, and would give me yet another reason to avoid the Byrne Superman run, but hopefully it's not true.

[Gaius]

From what I recall, Byrne had beef with Kirby and he decided to screw with Kirby by having Barda (modeled after Kirby’s wife iirc) be forced into a porno as a way of giving Kirby the finger.

I really have to roll my eyes at when writers or artists insert their beefs with or take potshots others at into their works.

[Vordan]

Found an article that goes into the details: https://comicbookhistorians.com/the-...nd-john-byrne/

TL;DR Kirby complained that he wasn’t benefitting from all the characters he created for Marvel, Byrne told him to get stuffed and declared himself a proud company man (ironic given what happened to him later). Kirby responded by creating a character that was a clear shot at Byrne and Byrne responded with the porno.

[Robanker]

Found an article that goes into the details: https://comicbookhistorians.com/the-...nd-john-byrne/

TL;DR Kirby complained that he wasn’t benefitting from all the characters he created for Marvel, Byrne told him to get stuffed and declared himself a proud company man (ironic given what happened to him later). Kirby responded by creating a character that was a clear shot at Byrne and Byrne responded with the porno.

I get it, I really do. Sometimes people can be petty and Kirby took a shot at him too, so it would be fair game if Byrne wasn't using the character Kirby based on his wife. That's just uncalled for. Of all Kirby's many creations, you mean to tell me none other were ripe for taking the piss?

[Kuwagaton]

That article doesn't actually mention the Barda thing at all. Gerber created the cogburn character that Kirby drew but said that he and Byrne had made up in the years that followed. That was without Byrne responding to Gerber, so why would he take a swipe at his idol? The idea that he put that comic together with an intention of taking a shot at (Roz) Kirby remains unfounded, so I think it's really just an awkward coincidence. It doesn't line up with what's been said or done before or since, and not every character inspired by a real person is used with said person in mind.

That or somehow everyone who should be in the know just completely turned a blind eye to the whole thing going forward with his career.