Controversial Superman Opinions

[SiegePerilous02]

So about Alan Moore Superman, Man who has everything is a perfectly decent story and everything. But at the same time, you could probably replace Superman with just about any other protagonist and all you’d have to do is just have to tweak what the Black mercy fantasy it a is. And odds are you wouldn’t really lose much. I mean everyone has something they want but can never have. I get that it’s purpose was to challenge the perception that Superman really does have it all. But my point still kinda stands.

If the Black Mercy fantasy requires tweaking to to suit another character better, than the story as written can only be done with Superman.

Broad story beats like "hero gets trapped in an idealized fantasy" are common, but that's not the same as an actual story with specific details. Because that requires more work to narrow it down, and you can't swap out Superman with the Flash in that story without overhauling the whole thing.

[Vordan]

It will be interesting to see how Loveness writes the other members Black Mercy fantasies in his upcoming JL arc.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

I’m actually not sure what your point is exactly lol. Is it just that a famous story could’ve been told with anyone? That’s pretty common, Kraven’s Last Hunt started out as a Batman story before being used for Spider-Man. Mark Millar gave some of his Superman 2000 ideas to Quesada to use in OMD. FTMWHE works best for Supes, especially Pre-Crisis Superman, because Superman usually wears a mask of perfection that hides his inner turmoils and desires. Batman’s fantasy for example was something we didn’t need an alien organism to dig up, he wants his parents back.

Seeing Superman try to kill Mongul was powerful. It was the first time we saw his “red eyes” mode I believe. To see a guy who seems to be perfect and have everything suddenly exposed as someone with an overwhelming loneliness and sadness to him is what elevated the story above other typical “hero in a fantasy world” stories.

Of course what was groundbreaking and powerful then is route and cliche now. Supes spends half his time walking around with red eyes and gnashing his teeth.

Yeah that was basically my point, but you’re probably right that maybe I’m not entirely appreciating the full context of when it was made. Good post.

[manwhohaseverything]

It's unfortunate that there's so little overlap on the two series when it comes to fans. I really love both a whole lot as my very favorites in comics. Funny enough I'd describe OP that way as a single ongoing melodrama instead of an anthology of one off stories and continuities vaguely centered around "one" character. 980 issues of Action? A good half lost to time, scores of them entirely unrelated to each other. The opposite in that sense.

The things Oda is good at are consistent if not usually improving across the series. But he can't offer the variety of completely different people over a much longer span of time.

Including multiple endings. Tom King, Dorfman, Moore, Gerber, Maggin, Bates and others have done finite stories on top of alternate realities. Of course the pay off doesn't come close to what you get from telling one coherent story.

Yeah! I might be the only one who found these similarities. There is an issue where superman doges bullets like luffy does. Well, it's drama is restricted to when the crew have a spat. That kinda comraderine just doesn't come of as bad. In fact, the only drama i like. I mean, i like supersons it has that kindof brotherhood and bickering . But, ultimately one piece will end. nobody else can do anything with that world. Because its a product of a specific author. No two people can think the same and one piece something that anyother person can come up with. They can only try to emulate or mimic. It won't work as smoothly.

There have been payoffs. But, still. I don't think it even tried to mimic or emulate the philosophy/positions of that superman(siegel and shuster) and challenged him.Then gave that story a proper ending. Ofcourse, for that to happen people would need to do more research on that iteration of the character and the authors. Piece together all the information in order to get a vision closer to that of the authors. I suppose marriages with lois might have legitimately happened.

Anyways, i don't understand why authors find it so difficult to write superman. I mean, it might be hard to "classic" superman. If superman were to be just treated as a character, with a pulp western swashbuckling background. The character is very easy to write. Heck! If writers thought of him as a champion. They would get an idea of what to do and what not to. It's when they try to create this perfect role model, people write themselves into a corner. And They just have to write superman to be this role model figure.

[Jon Clark]

Yeah! I might be the only one who found these similarities. There is an issue where superman doges bullets like luffy does. Well, it's drama is restricted to when the crew have a spat. That kinda comraderine just doesn't come of as bad. In fact, the only drama i like. I mean, i like supersons it has that kindof brotherhood and bickering . But, ultimately one piece will end. nobody else can do anything with that world. Because its a product of a specific author. No two people can think the same and one piece something that anyother person can come up with. They can only try to emulate or mimic. It won't work as smoothly.

There have been payoffs. But, still. I don't think it even tried to mimic or emulate the philosophy/positions of that superman(siegel and shuster) and challenged him.Then gave that story a proper ending. Ofcourse, for that to happen people would need to do more research on that iteration of the character and the authors. Piece together all the information in order to get a vision closer to that of the authors. I suppose marriages with lois might have legitimately happened.

But just who is that Superman?

Do you assume the stuff Siegel wrote is all valid? Do we include the stuff incorporated from the radio show (Jimmy and Perry) that were worked in but may not have been their ideas? Is there a cut-off point before Jerry leaves where you assume their basic idea has become corrupted by editorial input. Since Joe was using ghost artists who worked for him I'd assume at least some of the stuff he didn't draw personally might still be considered to have his approval.

I'd love to see this story, i just wonder who would be able to write it without at least subconsciously drawing on ideas from the later Superman. I have the same problem with a lot of Earth-2 stuff where you wonder if James Robinson, Roy Thomas and especially Geoff Johns might not have altered the perceptions of the Golden Age heroes so much that no one could write 1940's story that could have actually been told in a 1940's comic. That any story would have Robinson's Ted Knight, Ostrander's Spectre, Thomas' Hawks, and Johns' Wildcat more than their original 1940's characterizations.

[manwhohaseverything]

But just who is that Superman?

Do you assume the stuff Siegel wrote is all valid? Do we include the stuff incorporated from the radio show (Jimmy and Perry) that were worked in but may not have been their ideas? Is there a cut-off point before Jerry leaves where you assume their basic idea has become corrupted by editorial input. Since Joe was using ghost artists who worked for him I'd assume at least some of the stuff he didn't draw personally might still be considered to have his approval.

I'd love to see this story, i just wonder who would be able to write it without at least subconsciously drawing on ideas from the later Superman. I have the same problem with a lot of Earth-2 stuff where you wonder if James Robinson, Roy Thomas and especially Geoff Johns might not have altered the perceptions of the Golden Age heroes so much that no one could write 1940's story that could have actually been told in a 1940's comic. That any story would have Robinson's Ted Knight, Ostrander's Spectre, Thomas' Hawks, and Johns' Wildcat more than their original 1940's characterizations.

Yeah! It can be vexing and complicated. I do believe we can atleast get an abstraction.if successful, it could be an incredible addon to the librarynor even the multiverse. But, ultimately i don't think superman was created with a serialised story with start, middle and end. Maybe i am wrong. Maybe the creators did have something in mind. Anyways, corruption is would be a wrong way to look at it. As superman grew into a brand. Certain changes and additions where made into it.

[Jon Clark]

Yeah! It can be vexing and complicated. I do believe we can atleast get an abstraction.if successful, it could be an incredible addon to the librarynor even the multiverse. But, ultimately i don't think superman was created with a serialised story with start, middle and end. Maybe i am wrong. Maybe the creators did have something in mind. Anyways, corruption is would be a wrong way to look at it. As superman grew into a brand. Certain changes and additions where made into it.

I only meant corruption as in the original idea for Superman is now only part (if any) of what people see as Superman. The current take may be better. May be worse. But the one thing it isn't is a pure version based on the 1930's stuff Siegel and Shuster had in mind.

Bob Kane's Bat-Man was "corrupted' and the result was the imroved character Batman that debuted in Detective Comics #27. The character there is not pure Bob Kane, it's Bob Kane's pure character largely corrupted with Bill Finger's better ideas.

[Soubhagya]

So about Alan Moore Superman, Man who has everything is a perfectly decent story and everything. But at the same time, you could probably replace Superman with just about any other protagonist and all youÂ’d have to do is just have to tweak what the Black mercy fantasy it a is. And odds are you wouldnÂ’t really lose much. I mean everyone has something they want but can never have. I get that itÂ’s purpose was to challenge the perception that Superman really does have it all. But my point still kinda stands.


Makes me wonder why I canÂ’t think of any prominent superheroes with that as a day job, particularly ones who historically tend to go from Job to job like Hal Jordan, Peter Parker or Dick Grayson.

Its a great story on its own. Alan Moore gives these small touches which makes it very good and memorable. When Superman breaks free and gives that ear spitting cry, you feel it. Or when he says in a matter of fact way, "Burn", it is feels more bad*ss then if he were shouting like a madman. He is not playing around. He means business. Or when Mongul appears on page for the first time and towers over Batman even when squatting, you see this hulking monster towering over others effortlessly.

There are a lot more. Yes the template of the story is simple. But its true strength lies in how well its told. At least in my opinion.

[Will Evans]

Bring back Lana Lang and Pete Ross child in continuity as a contemporary of Jon.
Bring back Lucy Lane and Ron Troupe child in continuity as a contemporary of Jon.
Bring back Luthor and the Countess daughter back in continuity as a contemporary of Jon.

Keep either Lucy, Lana, or someone in the 21st century as Superwoman. I don’t care which one.

Keep Lady Blaze and Satanus as the Shazam Wizard’s kids.

[marhawkman]

I’m actually not sure what your point is exactly lol. Is it just that a famous story could’ve been told with anyone? That’s pretty common, Kraven’s Last Hunt started out as a Batman story before being used for Spider-Man. Mark Millar gave some of his Superman 2000 ideas to Quesada to use in OMD. FTMWHE works best for Supes, especially Pre-Crisis Superman, because Superman usually wears a mask of perfection that hides his inner turmoils and desires. Batman’s fantasy for example was something we didn’t need an alien organism to dig up, he wants his parents back.

Seeing Superman try to kill Mongul was powerful. It was the first time we saw his “red eyes” mode I believe. To see a guy who seems to be perfect and have everything suddenly exposed as someone with an overwhelming loneliness and sadness to him is what elevated the story above other typical “hero in a fantasy world” stories.

Of course what was groundbreaking and powerful then is route and cliche now. Supes spends half his time walking around with red eyes and gnashing his teeth.

Yeah things are only ground breaking once. Also seeing what Superman imagines a life on Krypton to be like was very cool.

[witchboy]

Bring back Lana Lang and Pete Ross child in continuity as a contemporary of Jon.
Bring back Lucy Lane and Ron Troupe child in continuity as a contemporary of Jon.
Bring back Luthor and the Countess daughter back in continuity as a contemporary of Jon.

Keep either Lucy, Lana, or someone in the 21st century as Superwoman. I don’t care which one.

Keep Lady Blaze and Satanus as the Shazam Wizard’s kids.

I would love to see those kids back. Lex as a father was particularly interesting, and I've always been mad Lena was just quietly removed from continuity.
I would love for Kristen Wells to return as Superwoman. Her being a time traveler, getting her super powers from common future tech was an interesting idea, and her being from the future gave her a new perspective.

[Ra-El]

I love Superman's classic uniform. But sometimes I think he could use something different, like the one Jon is using right now on DCeased and LoS.
Mostly I think of it because I look at how Marvel, for example, change the X-Men looks, and sometimes some really cool things appears.

[Amacent]

I love Superman's classic uniform. But sometimes I think he could use something different, like the one Jon is using right now on DCeased and LoS.
Mostly I think of it because I look at how Marvel, for example, change the X-Men looks, and sometimes some really cool things appears.

I hate how his Reborn look only lasted until the end of Tomasi, Gleason, and Jurgens runs on their respective series. I thought it was a fresh look and not an eyesore like the New 52 costume was (all those lines!!)

[Robanker]

I hate how his Reborn look only lasted until the end of Tomasi, Gleason, and Jurgens runs on their respective series. I thought it was a fresh look and not an eyesore like the New 52 costume was (all those lines!!)

Reborn was the first time I was willing to let the trunks go. It was the right modernization.

I still love the classic, but Reborn was so flippon' solid.

[Vordan]

I love Superman's classic uniform. But sometimes I think he could use something different, like the one Jon is using right now on DCeased and LoS.
Mostly I think of it because I look at how Marvel, for example, change the X-Men looks, and sometimes some really cool things appears.

I’m cool with the trunks or without, it doesn’t matter to me. I do wish that DC would experiment more with Superman’s look though. Try different designs out and then revert to the classic look at the end. Batman and Spider-Man have so many awesome looking alternate suits, and I’d really like to see Supes get a few more.