Controversial Superman Opinions

[DochaDocha]

That's just one that we know of, you then have Lois Lane's overall treatment throughout the New 52. Besides romance isnt just about shipping, its also about opening new avenues for story telling. Orion and Wonder Woman as a couple may be no loss but if Azz had interesting ideas about Diana playing some role in the New Genesis/Apokolips conflict then those ideas went down the drain automatically.
Romance should be for the purpose of story telling not pandering to someone who faps to pretty pictures. The actual story tellers treated SM/WW with utter disdain as Clementine pointed out. If your own writers resent it then its clear that they do find it limiting and problematic. This romance became exactly what the Pre Flashpoint super marriage was, except it only needed a year to reach that state. Now writers can work in peace, whatever relationasip Kal has with Diana can be explored in JL or Trinity. I honestly see no loss, there's still SM/WW interaction.

I would say if writers would ignore it, then they're not really being significantly restrained by the idea. Look at stuff like "Unchained."

I agree with your point about sustainability, but overall, I think among the things that was stifling creativity for writers, it comes a distant second to crossover arcs. For periods there, we had five titles doing four different things (more if you include JL), and then we had four titles dedicated to one thing.

[Lvenger]

A socially conscious Superman book is going to shed readers as per the direct market, there's no way around it. If it's badly written, like Champions (recently checked some of it out, and yeah, Waid means well but his execution is awful) it'll lose more readers, but even if it's written superbly it'll still lose readers.

Seconded. A Golden Age socially conscious written Superman comic if it were released today would not be well received both in terms of fans and sales. Personal politics, especially left wing ones, are not popular amongst comic fans I know people will point to Morrison's Action Comics run but the market was in a different place then as Marvel hadn't gone through its Marvel Now metamorphosis. Plus Morrison didn't focus exclusively on the social crusader side of Superman.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Does anyone else read this and think maybe the relationship wasn't even supposed to last as long as it did?

Any chance of Wonder Woman and Superman making it through this story arc with their relationship intact?

GJ: I think the bigger question is will you see any of these characters make it through. The thing about Wonder Woman and Superman is when their relationship ends, it's going to end badly. There is no good way for this one to end. And then there's other concerns. When those two start acting out together, people get nervous. Not because they don't think they're heroes, but because they have such incredible power, and who could stop those two?

https://www.buzzfeed.com/donnad/geof...wLR#.vuwYyvpYO

[Lvenger]

Does anyone else read this and think maybe the relationship wasn't even supposed to last as long as it did?



https://www.buzzfeed.com/donnad/geof...wLR#.vuwYyvpYO

Well it was designed with its failure in mind when Johns or Lee proposed it. But if Johns did intend to be the one to end the SM/WW relationship, I guess he must have been too caught up in other comics like Justice League, Aquaman and Green Lantern plus he then got the co-chairman of DC films gig. So the baton had to be passed to someone else to continue the SM/WW relationship instead.

[rui no onna]

A socially conscious Superman book is going to shed readers as per the direct market, there's no way around it. If it's badly written, like Champions (recently checked some of it out, and yeah, Waid means well but his execution is awful) it'll lose more readers, but even if it's written superbly it'll still lose readers.

Where such a book might gain readers is in trade, and the digital market, where books like Saga thrive, but there's no guarantee it'll do well in those markets. If DC goes that route, they will have to treat it like a Vertigo/Young Animal book and settle for sales well below what superhero books usually do.

The book will have great impact, but not in the sales department.

Yep, most likely.

Mind, Saga is thriving far better in sales than most superhero books. Volume 1 cumulative trade sales are already at 350+K (per Comichron and BookScan 2016). That's not including sales to libraries, schools, book clubs, etc. No digital, either.

[DochaDocha]

Well it was designed with its failure in mind when Johns or Lee proposed it. But if Johns did intend to be the one to end the SM/WW relationship, I guess he must have been too caught up in other comics like Justice League, Aquaman and Green Lantern plus he then got the co-chairman of DC films gig. So the baton had to be passed to someone else to continue the SM/WW relationship instead.

Agreed. That's why I can concur with the statement that it's not sustainable, but not so heavily with the idea that it somehow was restricting all the books in a way that's more profound than Superman turning into a Doomsday monster or losing powers. Not to pick on darkseidpwns, but when he says the relationship is "pandering to someone who faps to pretty pictures," there might be more to his complaint about it than simply putting certain creative restrictions on writers.

Whenever you adhere to continuity, there's always going to be some restrictions on what you can do... well maybe not always... see my many complaints about Superman Returns... but on a five-point scale I'd say something like Death of Superman is a right-censored 5+, losing his powers in "Truth" is a 5, and the relationship was a 3.

[manofsteel1979]

I've long theroized that the SM/WW thing was supposed to culminate with whatever Trinity War was originally going to be. What was originally planned for that story wasn't what was actually published and the plan changed many times before the published version became a long lead up to Forever Evil. When the plan changed for that, it was just there and no one knew how to end it. They just pretty much left it to whither on the vine and quietly retconned it away with REBORN.

[Sacred Knight]

Meh, who knows what they would have done without the restrictions the crossover romance made? My point still stands. Dc turned against the idea when they wanted the solo books to be able utilize that side of their character's lives. And since they were never going to make WW a regular in Superman's book and vice versa, it had to be tossed. It was never realistically sustainable. Which wouldn't be so bad but they tossed a lot of past stories and history for SM/WW's sake and then Frankenstein it back together. The Superman mythos had to bend over backwards for the sake of SM/WW.

Outside of other romantic ideas, its incredibly hard to make the argument there were any restrictions in the first place. I mean, name one thing not romance-based that creative teams hands were tied on specifically because of Wonder Woman. Was it because of Wonder Woman that they couldn't use Lois is any capacity? No, that was their own creative failings. They made the dumb decision to not utilize her much, but they didn't have to, their hands weren't tied. They just didn't know what to do with a Lois Lane that wasn't Superman's wife, and in the end that falls on creative incompetence, not restrictive status quos. The missed opportunites for Superman in the New 52 vex me too. But its very hard to justify that any of the creative whiffs on the property had anything do with Superman being in a relationship with Wonder Woman.

And they didn't toss anything out for the sake of the romance. They tossed things out for the sake of the overall reboot. That's why certain things were lost. All that stuff would have still been gone whether they did this story or not, because they still would have rebooted whether they did this story or not. Clark and Lois were not going to be married anymore regardless. Its not like they rebooted their entire universe so they could make Superman and Wonder Woman boyfriend and girlfriend. The reboot happened for a host of reasons, that right or wrong were bigger than this; this idea was just born out of opportunity from the end result. Not the other way around.

Does anyone else read this and think maybe the relationship wasn't even supposed to last as long as it did?



https://www.buzzfeed.com/donnad/geof...wLR#.vuwYyvpYO

Quite possible. Like mos said there's lots to go on that it was supposed to play a big role in the original Trinity War ideas that never came to fruition. In its lead-up there was the Booster Gold-witnessing-the-kiss thing, which was at the time supposed to be significant. Then there were the rumors of Trinity War being crafted using ideas from Alan Moore's never-written Twilight of the Superheroes, an idea which featured a future in which Superman and Wonder Woman were a ruling House. Or maybe whatever potential idea he had to close the book on the chapter was entirely separate and never came to fruition. He did write that thing in Forever Evil with Batman using the lasso to "connect" with Wonder Woman and saving everyone, calling into question his feelings for her. Of course it was never referenced again.

[dumbduck]

Yeah and Trinity like SM/WW and even Batman/Superman is a book that fizzled out after the first arc, it will last approximately the same number of issues and then poof it will go. Difference is that Trinity will stick to its own book, Superman/Wonder Woman as fishyzombie pointed out was choking writers on Superman, Action and Wonder Woman.SM//WW was bothersome both directly and indirectly, look at the bigger picture here.

Look at the numbers, you're like one of those folks who keep comparing RB's starting numbers to N52's ending numbers. SMWW didn't 'fizzle out' after the 1st arc, it did after a change in writers.

SMWW was holding 45K+ during Soule's writing. Trinity is doing Tomasi's numbers after 6 issues.

Meh, who knows what they would have done without the restrictions the crossover romance made? My point still stands. Dc turned against the idea when they wanted the solo books to be able utilize that side of their character's lives. And since they were never going to make WW a regular in Superman's book and vice versa, it had to be tossed. It was never realistically sustainable. Which wouldn't be so bad but they tossed a lot of past stories and history for SM/WW's sake and then Frankenstein it back together. The Superman mythos had to bend over backwards for the sake of SM/WW.

As I said, look at the numbers. The market for it is there. You're talking about the possible bias against the pairing inside DC. This is irrelevant to confirming that there is a public for it. If DC has writers and artists who like the relationship then any subjective 'restrictions' are irrelevant.

And as other people pointed out, the pairing didn't choke other books, it was choked by the crossovers instead. There's more I'll write about that I agree with you in another post.

[dumbduck]

All these arguments, I agree partially with all of them. My view of what happened to this relationship is this:

Now that the pairing is over, I can repeat what I wrote a few times without being accused of 'victimizing' or the reverse, 'devil's advocate':

If DC knew that they didn't have talent who *liked* this pairing they shouldn't even have tried. Now that it's over it's easy for me to say this, but without writers who *like* this pairing, who understand and respect what makes them work, who respect the fandom, who are willing to give them their best stories, honestly, in a perfect world, I'd pass.

However, I know the reality is that not many writers are willing to give their best stories to Superman alone, let alone him paired up with Diana, so I was willing to accept what was given us.


The thing that makes me agree with those who say that this was just a stunt, designed for failure, haphazardly planned, is this: In the end, Rebirth was all about destroying the Diana and Kal relationship. Now that all is said and done, we see that every other 'love, hope and legacy' could have happened without destroying them. The goal was to get Clark and Diana apart.

The other thing is to compare the 'status quo' of the New52 to the ones from Rebirth. Rebirth set as one of it's goals to get the Lois and Clark relationship back. This means that:

Lois and Clark fans get Clois in Superman.

Lois and Clark fans get Clois in Action Comics.

Lois and Clark fans get Clois in Trinity.

Lois and Clark fans get Clois in Super Sons.

Lois and Clark fans get Clois in Justice League.

Lois and Clark fans get Clois in whatever other book DC deems it has to appear.

There are no digs against it in interviews, no meta digs in the comics, no DC own staff begging Geoff Johns for Lois to cheat on Clark with Batso, no boycotts in the comics themselves. The mission is Lois and Clark. Lois and Clark is what the fans are getting. There are no mixed signals.



With Diana and Kal... not so much. The marketing campaign may have been impressive for a comic book romance, but inside the universe itself there was a lot of lip service and not much else. To the point that a book had to be launched for the pairing itself. A Diana and Clark romance, to be compared to the Clois romance on equal terms, would have to have been integrated in the main running books.

Superman

Action Comics

Wonder Woman

Batman/Superman

If the writers weren't willing to accept it the same way they are accepting Lois and Clark now, I have to agree with the people who say it was designed for failure. If DC couldn't or didn't want to make it clear that this was the pairing to be worked with, the same way that Lois and Clark was the one to be worked with in the 90s comics leading to the marriage, then it's unfair to compare both pairings. If the 'Status Quo' was much less than Clois in the 90s and the Kents in Rebirth, it was unfair to the Diana and Clark fans. If the writers can't be at least professional about it there's nothing to be done.

When a Superman/Wonder Woman fan looked at the past of Clois treatement, and looked at how the SMWW was being conducted... what kind of reaction did DC expect? To build confidence in their customers should have meant at the very least not giving so many mixed signals. Johns' interview about it's end is anthological in showing the internal conflict about this pairing. This no way to build customer confidence.



I think we'll probably never know the whole truth about what was going on with the internal politics about this pairing. DC did work hard to get this romance going.

About DC's disorganization: in the new 52, editors let the writers decide the direction of the series thinking they knew what to do, and they ended up with a mess: multiple takes of the same characters, continuous change of directions, conflicting creative decisions, etc...

Speaking about our fav characters... on Superman, Perez didn't know what Morrison was writing, while Diana was two completely different characters under Azz and Jonhs.

As DiDio pointed out, under these circumstances, and with multiple interpretations of the same characters running around, it was impossible to make a shared universe work. And DC-You's loose continuity certainly didn't help.

The SM/WW relationship was probably one of the few (if not the only ) things that had a sort of planning. After DC's higher-ups discussed the idea with Mrs. DC Entertainment (D. Nelson) to know her professional opinion on it and received her and WB approval to proceed, they began mapping and planning for two years (2010/2012) the ramifications and repercussions that the relationship would have had in the wide DCU.
Examples of said "repercussion" in the published stories are Amanda Waller creating her own JLA among many reasons to prevent SM/WW from procreating (or something like that ), the subplot of Booster Gold disappearing in the JLI Annual and Diana/Clark's relationship leaking to the public in SM/WW.

As it was said, the idea was to open new narrative potential for DC's various editors and writers and expand DC mythology.

On the character side, it was established that Diana and Clark didn't know each other outside of superheroics, and the beginning of their relationship would make them compare with their different backgrounds and learn from each other.

Johns: "How do they affect one another? They're similar in many ways, but they're very, very different in a lot of ways and they both have different viewpoints and different upbringings and dfferent M.O.s, so to see those two come together is going to be some great storytelling."

In-story examples: in Johns' JL we see Clark bringing Diana to Smallville to show where he group up, letting her start to know him better and giving her the idea of ​​using a secret identity as he does, in Soule's SM/WW is Diana influencing Clark to be more open about who he really is, etc...

During Doomed, there's a moment when Diana looks for Clark and among all places she doesn't think to looking in his Metropolis' apartment, showing that she hasn't become yet familiar with Clark's lifestyle. On this, Berganza explained that they're still in the "early stage" of their relationship so they still don't know each other well.

It's a shame that due to DC's general chaos at the time and the constant crossovers, this characters development has been constantly delayed and then came Convergence... (I'll PM you about that later)

So much set-up and no pay-off.

Some sources about what I wrote:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/life/...ook/57328804/1

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/superman...or-first-time/

http://ew.com/article/2012/08/22/jus...-12-exclusive/

There are also Soule/Tomasi's interviews that say a few things I reported. The stories also speak for themselves.

I have to agree that there was a lot of behind the scenes work.



On the other hand, it shouldn't have been, but I also tend to agree with those who say that most writers didn't want it and it was bothersome to then.

It was barelly touched upon in Superman's own books when compared to Clois comic book history.

Azzarello and Chiang had their own story to tell and I understand it completely. But it's irrelevant to the fact that this was one of the starts of the end for the relationship.

When I got here at the end of 2013 I saw many fans relieved that the 'dark times' were over. Hopefully DC would not repeat the mistakes of the past, like having a mind controlled Clark fighting Diana, fanfic mechanic in 10 out of 10 bmww writers.

Then came Doomed. Clark got corrupted, lost control, and Diana had to fight him and bring him back. Later, Clark got corrupted, lost control, and Diana had to fight him and bring him back. Finally, for the final issue... Clark got corrupted, lost control, and Diana had to fight him and bring him back.

...

Diana was a guest in her own book. With the help of Future's End, 2014 was almost a full year of a mentally weak Superman losing the fight against an infection. If I've not been clear enough, I didn't like Doomed, I complained about it from day one.

But the numbers held. Not only that, but SMWW came 2 years after the relaunch, and Doomed 2 and 1/2. This means the crossover numbers only benefited from already lowered sales after 2 years and 6 months.

Unfortunately Soule left after 12 issues. The last one, outside the crossover, sold 47,885. The second arc that many expected to be in Diana's world never came.

Meredith and David came into the WW book and it was clear they also wanted nothing of the relationship.

Tomasi changed their 1st meeting to the chagrin of everyone. The 'honeymoon' phase needed to end, right after Doomed. One thing I have to give Tomasi praise on, is that I think he tried to have Diana affected as Goddess of War and Clark help her, but Wonder Woman fans rejected this vehemently. They couldn't accept Clark helping Diana the same way Diana helped Clark I don't know how many times already. Obviously there are fans of other pairings in this crowd, but DC as always listened more to them than to the people who were buying the books.

(continues due to word limit)

[dumbduck]

(continued)
All our hopes, ideas and expectations for this pairing... Cosmic, Time Travelling, Magic, Multiversal adventures. Fun, hope,love and yes, sexiness. Legion, Themyscira, Olympus, New Genesis. Multiple dropped plot lines and hints with so much promise. Parallel Tales with a centuries older Diana inspiring Clark. I'm seeing all of these being given to other character(s).



There's a whole chapter to be written about DC listening more to fans of other pairings than to the people actually buying the books.




BvS, Frank Miller homages, dropped plotlines... There are many other things to say about this, what I think DC did wrong, so many mixed signals, but in the reverse to all my agreement with the naysayers, and exactly despite/because of all of these negative things against the book, I have to show the numbers again. The end of Soule's run here:

Superman Wonder Woman 10 $3.99 DC 50,254
Superman Wonder Woman 11 $3.99 DC 50,550
Superman Wonder Woman Annual 1 $4.99 DC 42,094
Superman Wonder Woman Futures End 1 $3.99 DC 68,271
Superman Wonder Woman 12 $3.99 DC 47,885
11 and Annual were in the same month.

During Soule's writing, the book held at 45000+. It was only with Tomasi's writing that it dropped bellow 40K and less. Unfortunately with Tomasi, things happened as I feared they would happen for Diana and Clark.

With other books, characters, team ups, if the writing is bad, and the fans complain, and the sales fall. What does DC do?

They change the creative team, change direction, maybe even a re-launch with a new #1. Dozens of books, characters and team ups that sold and sell much less than SMWW got and get renewed.

With Diana and Clark they destroyed the book and the pairing.

The numbers don't lie, there's money for DC in this pairing. I personally would be happy with New52 Diana and Clark in their own universe.

[FishyZombie]

To respond to MOS1979 and a few others, just to clarify. You stated that if the main writers were on board, it might have been less problematic. Problem there is what I keep saying is that the real problem with the crossover romance is that it couldn't be explored in the main books. Soule was the guy writing the crossover book. Of course he wouldn't have a problem with it. See if they broke up the marriage and put him with Lana, Lori or someone new, they'd still have something. Even if they made him completely single, they'd be able to explore that if they wanted to imo. People raising the problems writers have with married heroes also raise another point. We hear about marriages getting rebooted out all the time. But Superman rebirth is the only time i can think of when a character got rebooted to make him married again. And yet the controversial OMD is still going strong. Let me give my speculation why that was the case. They broke up Pete and MJ in order to give the writers of the spiderbooks the freedom to tell stories with different love interests. New 52 did the opposite. They broke up Superman's marriage and put him with WW. Ironically giving the solo book writers less freedom. And frankly why darkseidpwns "chocking" description seems appropriate to me. And that's why I think they wanted to lock him down with Lois again. They got territorial. They wanted it to be impossible for them to lose control of their characters love life again. Time will tell for this, but I doubt that they'll be breaking up anytime soon. A married Superman may not be their ideal scenerio but they are more afraid of the alternative.

[dumbduck]

Which wouldn't be so bad but they tossed a lot of past stories and history for SM/WW's sake and then Frankenstein it back together. The Superman mythos had to bend over backwards for the sake of SM/WW.

It was a reboot. That's what's supposed to happen in reboots. That's what happened in 1986. A lot of history was thrown out the window.

This is a part of another discussion I had with another poster:

(...)You make a lot of assumptions and generalisations. Lois doesn't have to die or be pushed to the sidelines for Clark and Diana to date. She doesn't have to be character assassinated. You and other people try to insert a narrative that the SuperWonder relationship hurts both women. THat it paints them in a bad light.

But 52 was a rebooth. It wasn't a clean rebooth, but it was one. Clark didn't leave Lois. He didn't change Lois for Diana, he didn't cheat on Lois, he didn't divorce her. Diana is not a homewrecker. It was a rebooth. Lois was dating another man. Diana had ended things with Steve for over one year. They met, they kissed, they connected. That's it.

When I look back, it was meticulously done in a way not to disrespect both Lois and Steve. Steve had it a bit worse, but still better than catching Diana almost kissing Clark while they were still dating, for example.(...)

To respond to MOS1979 and a few others, just to clarify. You stated that if the main writers were on board, it might have been less problematic. Problem there is what I keep saying is that the real problem with the crossover romance is that it couldn't be explored in the main books. Soule was the guy writing the crossover book. Of course he wouldn't have a problem with it. See if they broke up the marriage and put him with Lana, Lori or someone new, they'd still have something. Even if they made him completely single, they'd be able to explore that if they wanted to imo. People raising the problems writers have with married heroes also raise another point. We hear about marriages getting rebooted out all the time. But Superman rebirth is the only time i can think of when a character got rebooted to make him married again. And yet the controversial OMD is still going strong. Let me give my speculation why that was the case. They broke up Pete and MJ in order to give the writers of the spiderbooks the freedom to tell stories with different love interests. New 52 did the opposite. They broke up Superman's marriage and put him with WW. Ironically giving the solo book writers less freedom. And frankly why darkseidpwns "chocking" description seems appropriate to me. And that's why I think they wanted to lock him down with Lois again. They got territorial. They wanted it to be impossible for them to lose control of their characters love life again. Time will tell for this, but I doubt that they'll be breaking up anytime soon. A married Superman may not be their ideal scenerio but they are more afraid of the alternative.

This is a theory that I could find myself agreeing with. We'll probably never know for sure.

The only thing I can say for sure is that the New52 was supposed to have been a clean slate. We all know this didn't fully happen, just as after COIE. The relationships were being redefined just as the Superman/Batman relationship was redefined in 1986.

I'm sorry for quoting you manofsteel1979, but they were lucky the internet didn't exist back then.

I would safely say the only writer in that span to be enthusiastic about writing it was Charles Soule ,and he was largely outside of the DC clique and it was a time where his SM/ WW book was not tied that closely with what was going on in Superman, Action, Batman/ Superman and WW. Outside of Lobdell who was more agreeable with editorial fiat than most writers ( which I suspect is the main reason he stayed on SUPERMAN and SUPERBOY for so long) the other Superman and WW Creators didn't really use the SM/WW thing in their stories. I think the first time Pak even used it at all outside of a small nod in his intial Batman/Superman arc was during the DOOMED crossover.

I agree with much of this, just a correction on Pak's part, he did use it in his Action Comics before Doomed. He gave them some very nice scenes now that I think about it.

Which is why DC should utilize the Multiverse more, but unfortunately it'll probably never happen.its the perfect solution to allow writers freedom to use or not use certain aspects at their own discretion.

Agreed vehemently.

[Ascended]

Seconded. A Golden Age socially conscious written Superman comic if it were released today would not be well received both in terms of fans and sales. Personal politics, especially left wing ones, are not popular amongst comic fans I know people will point to Morrison's Action Comics run but the market was in a different place then as Marvel hadn't gone through its Marvel Now metamorphosis. Plus Morrison didn't focus exclusively on the social crusader side of Superman.

Oh, I never said such a direction should focus exclusively on the social issues. Because running with that status quo probably doesnt have the legs to run long-term. Note that I did say adjustments and changes would need to be made.

But I do think a socially aware Superman, if handled properly, could endure. He'd still have to deal with super villains and alien invasions and he'd still have to punch Darkseid in the face. But he'd also be spending time bringing down corrupt businessmen and politicians. He'd be dealing with a unreliable news media presenting opinions as fact. He'd be dealing with dangerous, rogue nations who have gained access to biological and/or nuclear weapons. He'd be dealing with a growing poverty class and a shrinking middle class unable to adapt to automation and outsourcing. And I dont think it matters what political party you side with; corruption within government and business, dangerous world leaders, and bias-based news reporting is something everyone has a problem with. So unless you're fine with the kind of slant Fox News and MSNBC throw around, and you're fine with North Korea testing new, nuclear-capable missiles, and you're okay with foreign governments bribing officials working closely with our highest elected leaders (a problem that goes back to before the current administration) I dont see what the problem would be.

And while the market has shifted and people seem to be tired of changes to the usual status quo (thanks for burning that bridge Marvel) social and cultural tones have shifted even more. People are tired, they're sick of the BS, and seeing Superman go after the kinds of problems we're facing is cathartic as hell.

A socially aware Superman is more relevant now than its probably been in our lifetimes. And yes, you'd still see the same kind of sales atrophy every title sees; that's just a reality of the industry. And yes, you'd have to be careful in how you approach the idea, because everyone is so damn sensitive and intolerant of other opinions. And all this means DC couldn't just throw any writer at the character, they'd actually have to put some effort into getting quality talent. But it'd pay off if they tackled it right.

[dumbduck]

(@DochaDocha, FishyZombie, manofsteel1979, Sacred Knight, darkseidpwns, etc)

In the end of the day I think we'll probably never know the whole truth of it. The naysayers may be right, I find myself having the same doubts as they theorize. The fans may be right, the neutrals.

I think one of the the only sure things about it all was the lack of organization. If Perez and Morrison had communicated, if Didio, Lee and Johns had told Azz and Chiang their plans from the beginning...

I also was unfair to Pak and Lobdell, they did try and work with the pairing.

The other sure things are again the numbers. We fans invested 5 years in those characters. We loved them. Please DC, give us our New52 Diana and Kal back.

If DC has writers and artists who like the relationship then any subjective 'restrictions' are irrelevant. Give them back to us.