Controversial Superman Opinions

[Flash Gordon]

Sustainability is certainly a consideration. I think the idea itself has legs to run for ages though. If nothing else, real world events will always be giving you new story ideas. But the big question is whether DC could capitalize on it without driving fans away with crap execution. A socially aware Superman requires a finer, more delicate touch than most of the creators they put on the character and his stories would require a little more nuance and complexity.

But if DC could get off their ass and invest a little bit of effort into the character, this direction could throw Clark back on top, make him hugely popular again, and generate a ton of revenue for DC through merchandise. But DC doesnt like money, and they certainly hate having to work for it, which is why Batman is their go-to guy now, he appeals to the lowest common denominator and that sh*t is easy as hell to write.

And a Young Animal title is inspired man! Love the idea!!

You're right, there's an endless spectrum of stories for that kinda Superman. Stories that would feel modern and new. Exciting. A clean break away from the punch up video game style stories we get now.

Superman is aching for this kind of treatment, to be honest. For someone to come in and let him live up to his folk legend name. I'm just not sure DC would allow a somewhat politically charged Superman (I'd argue fighting oppression, in all forms, is not a political issue- but alas).

I've been dreaming up a Superman title like this for some time now, and now that Young Animal is here it's the perfect time. I'd love to write it but since that isn't going to happen, I'd love to see China Melville on it. Steve Pugh doing the art, similar to his HOTWIRE book from Radical Publishing.

[Francisco]

Superman certainly could use a bit of political controversy.

[FishyZombie]

I'm going to throw in my support for a shirt and jeans, somewhat depowered book. Like others said, a whole lot of untapped potential. It was my Favorite Superman origin, hands down. Disappointed it wasn't added to the reborn timeline.

Outside of other romantic ideas, its incredibly hard to make the argument there were any restrictions in the first place. I mean, name one thing not romance-based that creative teams hands were tied on specifically because of Wonder Woman. Was it because of Wonder Woman that they couldn't use Lois is any capacity? No, that was their own creative failings. They made the dumb decision to not utilize her much, but they didn't have to, their hands weren't tied. They just didn't know what to do with a Lois Lane that wasn't Superman's wife, and in the end that falls on creative incompetence, not restrictive status quos. The missed opportunites for Superman in the New 52 vex me too. But its very hard to justify that any of the creative whiffs on the property had anything do with Superman being in a relationship with Wonder Woman.

And they didn't toss anything out for the sake of the romance. They tossed things out for the sake of the overall reboot. That's why certain things were lost. All that stuff would have still been gone whether they did this story or not, because they still would have rebooted whether they did this story or not. Clark and Lois were not going to be married anymore regardless. Its not like they rebooted their entire universe so they could make Superman and Wonder Woman boyfriend and girlfriend. The reboot happened for a host of reasons, that right or wrong were bigger than this; this idea was just born out of opportunity from the end result. Not the other way around.

Don't see why I need to? I already pointed out the restrictions it made. How it prevented writers from doing subplots they wanted, and from utilizing their book's supporting cast the way they could have. While offering nothing in return. That alone made that dynamic detrimental as far as I'm concerned. Whether the writers made do or not, doesn't change that it created inconvience. And unlike all the alternatives they could have gone with i brought up. From where I looked at it, SM/WW offered nothing to the solo books to compensate. How about you name 1 positive thing SM/WW offered the main Superman books. And for the Wonder Woman book?
And while you have a point on the other paragraph. I still blame it for why New 52 Superman got tossed.

[Sacred Knight]

You don't have to do anything you don't want to do, of course. You didn't go into any detail as to how it prevented writers from doing anything, so that's why I posed the question. It wasn't intended to be posed in a smarmy way, but you seem a little irritated so maybe it came across that way. But it was certainly not the intent. I was just looking for more clarity. You said it prevented certain subplots. And I'm failing to see any correlation whatsoever as to what it prevented from being told if the creative teams wanted to. Likewise I fail to see how it prevented utilization of the supporting cast. That they didn't use the supporting cast well was a problem completely independent of the fact that Superman was dating someone outside his mythos. In Superman's history his supporting cast has been used well, not enough, and too much. This was a time that it was used not enough. But I don't see any correlation whatsoever to who Superman was dating at the time. So these things definitely change the perception--false perception, I contend--that it created inconvenience. From where I stand it just looks like specious reasoning and connecting dots that don't really connect at all.

As far as specific positive things that it did for their own solo books, as a lifelong fan of these two characters interacting regardless, the fact she showed up often in Superman was a personal plus for me. It didn't do anything positive, nor negative for that matter, to her own solo because it was ignored. With that said though, its rather irrelevant to my argument. I wasn't challenging your opinion of not it not doing anything good for the Superman books. I was challenging your assertion that it outright prevented other stories frombeing possible to be told. And I stand by saying that that's a completely unsupportable claim.

[DochaDocha]

I'm going to throw in my support for a shirt and jeans, somewhat depowered book. Like others said, a whole lot of untapped potential. It was my Favorite Superman origin, hands down. Disappointed it wasn't added to the reborn timeline.

Don't see why I need to? I already pointed out the restrictions it made. How it prevented writers from doing subplots they wanted, and from utilizing their book's supporting cast the way they could have. While offering nothing in return. That alone made that dynamic detrimental as far as I'm concerned. Whether the writers made do or not, doesn't change that it created inconvience. And unlike all the alternatives they could have gone with i brought up. From where I looked at it, SM/WW offered nothing to the solo books to compensate. How about you name 1 positive thing SM/WW offered the main Superman books. And for the Wonder Woman book?
And while you have a point on the other paragraph. I still blame it for why New 52 Superman got tossed.

I'm going to use an analogy that I'm going to regret somewhere down the line, but here goes.

Superman mythos should be like the Garden of Eden. There are so many good ideas you can pull from. If the Man Upstairs says you can do whatever you want except such and such, then instead of complaining about that one apple tree you can't eat from, even if they're by far the tastiest looking apples you could imagine and you like apples more than anything in this world, then make do with the pear tree, the peach tree, the strawberry bushes, etc.

Years ago when the DCAU was still running, there was the famous Bat-embargo, where everything Batman-related other than Batman and a few of his vehicles and gadgets were completely off limits to Justice League Unlimited. This pissed off a lot of fans, but the creators worked around it, and did good stuff. I think there were times when the Superman writers were able to do good stuff between 2012-2016 despite that one restriction on them. I know I liked the Pak run, and so did various others on this board. Johns took the reins for a year and tried to do his own thing, etc. Specific to Pak, he made Lana more interesting in the books than she was in years. It's just too bad they never told us what she did for a living.

And really, just because Superman was dating a Justice Leaguer all of the sudden meant there couldn't be stories where he hung out with Jimmy? Or start a blog with Cat Grant? Hell, everyone knows the character who got affected the most was Lois, and did that stop Scott Snyder from doing "Unchained"? Did that stop Gene Luen Yang from writing Superman and Lois' adventures and bonding in his book?

There were a lot of missed opportunities in New 52 and ideas that might've sprung up but had poor follow-through. I think the idea that the SM/WW relationship killed creativity on what to do with all the other gazillion things they could've done just seems overly harsh. If you want to say it was bad idea from the get-go, I can't argue with that, but of the bad stories that we got during New 52, the fault mostly lies on writers and editors, and not one aspect of the New 52 Superman timeline.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying Lois was the forbidden fruit (but the best tasting doughnut is the forbidden doughnut!) that should be avoided or whatever, I'm just saying if writers were really hung up on that relationship (which I would argue they weren't, especially Pak), that's not enough of a stumbling block for me to feel like they couldn't produce quality stories.

[Last Son of Krypton]

With Diana and Kal... not so much. The marketing campaign may have been impressive for a comic book romance, but inside the universe itself there was a lot of lip service and not much else. To the point that a book had to be launched for the pairing itself. A Diana and Clark romance, to be compared to the Clois romance on equal terms, would have to have been integrated in the main running books.

Superman

Action Comics

Wonder Woman

Batman/Superman

It would've been even harder to handle the relationship if it had been an integral part of all these books. They wanted also to differentiate the series: AC had Lana as supporting cast and other characters such as Steel, SM had Lois and the Metropolis cast, BM/SM had Batman (of course), while the SM/WW relationship had a whole book that focused on it. Finch used the relationship in her WW run, with Diana struggling with the various aspects of her life and her desire to have a family with Kal.

Johns' interview about it's end is anthological in showing the internal conflict about this pairing. This no way to build customer confidence.

He also added this to the interview: https://mobile.twitter.com/geoffjohn...01038262865920

[Ra-El]

I'm going to use an analogy that I'm going to regret somewhere down the line, but here goes.

Superman mythos should be like the Garden of Eden. There are so many good ideas you can pull from. If the Man Upstairs says you can do whatever you want except such and such, then instead of complaining about that one apple tree you can't eat from, even if they're by far the tastiest looking apples you could imagine and you like apples more than anything in this world, then make do with the pear tree, the peach tree, the strawberry bushes, etc.

Years ago when the DCAU was still running, there was the famous Bat-embargo, where everything Batman-related other than Batman and a few of his vehicles and gadgets were completely off limits to Justice League Unlimited. This pissed off a lot of fans, but the creators worked around it, and did good stuff. I think there were times when the Superman writers were able to do good stuff between 2012-2016 despite that one restriction on them. I know I liked the Pak run, and so did various others on this board. Johns took the reins for a year and tried to do his own thing, etc. Specific to Pak, he made Lana more interesting in the books than she was in years. It's just too bad they never told us what she did for a living.

And really, just because Superman was dating a Justice Leaguer all of the sudden meant there couldn't be stories where he hung out with Jimmy? Or start a blog with Cat Grant? Hell, everyone knows the character who got affected the most was Lois, and did that stop Scott Snyder from doing "Unchained"? Did that stop Gene Luen Yang from writing Superman and Lois' adventures and bonding in his book?

There were a lot of missed opportunities in New 52 and ideas that might've sprung up but had poor follow-through. I think the idea that the SM/WW relationship killed creativity on what to do with all the other gazillion things they could've done just seems overly harsh. If you want to say it was bad idea from the get-go, I can't argue with that, but of the bad stories that we got during New 52, the fault mostly lies on writers and editors, and not one aspect of the New 52 Superman timeline.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying Lois was the forbidden fruit (but the best tasting doughnut is the forbidden doughnut!) that should be avoided or whatever, I'm just saying if writers were really hung up on that relationship (which I would argue they weren't, especially Pak), that's not enough of a stumbling block for me to feel like they couldn't produce quality stories.

Agree. I would say that the only reason Lana is Superwoman is because of the really good development Pak gave her. Pak's run on Action Comics have a lot of great ideas, Baka is one, I hope DC don't wast him, it would be great see him interacting with Jon for example. If the Superman relationship had one problem is that it kind of sidelined Lois, a lot, but I don't think that it hold the writers back in any significant way.

[FishyZombie]

I'm going to use an analogy that I'm going to regret somewhere down the line, but here goes.

Superman mythos should be like the Garden of Eden. There are so many good ideas you can pull from. If the Man Upstairs says you can do whatever you want except such and such, then instead of complaining about that one apple tree you can't eat from, even if they're by far the tastiest looking apples you could imagine and you like apples more than anything in this world, then make do with the pear tree, the peach tree, the strawberry bushes, etc.

Years ago when the DCAU was still running, there was the famous Bat-embargo, where everything Batman-related other than Batman and a few of his vehicles and gadgets were completely off limits to Justice League Unlimited. This pissed off a lot of fans, but the creators worked around it, and did good stuff. I think there were times when the Superman writers were able to do good stuff between 2012-2016 despite that one restriction on them. I know I liked the Pak run, and so did various others on this board. Johns took the reins for a year and tried to do his own thing, etc. Specific to Pak, he made Lana more interesting in the books than she was in years. It's just too bad they never told us what she did for a living.

And really, just because Superman was dating a Justice Leaguer all of the sudden meant there couldn't be stories where he hung out with Jimmy? Or start a blog with Cat Grant? Hell, everyone knows the character who got affected the most was Lois, and did that stop Scott Snyder from doing "Unchained"? Did that stop Gene Luen Yang from writing Superman and Lois' adventures and bonding in his book?

There were a lot of missed opportunities in New 52 and ideas that might've sprung up but had poor follow-through. I think the idea that the SM/WW relationship killed creativity on what to do with all the other gazillion things they could've done just seems overly harsh. If you want to say it was bad idea from the get-go, I can't argue with that, but of the bad stories that we got during New 52, the fault mostly lies on writers and editors, and not one aspect of the New 52 Superman timeline.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying Lois was the forbidden fruit (but the best tasting doughnut is the forbidden doughnut!) that should be avoided or whatever, I'm just saying if writers were really hung up on that relationship (which I would argue they weren't, especially Pak), that's not enough of a stumbling block for me to feel like they couldn't produce quality stories.

I said in my posts, that the SM/WW pairing was detrimental, that it took away a storytelling element from Superman's stories, provided nothing in return, and that getting rid of it freed up storytelling opportunities that the main books could actually explore. And my point stands, I think it was a negative influence. You make it sound like I thought that it stopped the world from spinning or something.

You don't have to do anything you don't want to do, of course. You didn't go into any detail as to how it prevented writers from doing anything, so that's why I posed the question. It wasn't intended to be posed in a smarmy way, but you seem a little irritated so maybe it came across that way. But it was certainly not the intent. I was just looking for more clarity. You said it prevented certain subplots. And I'm failing to see any correlation whatsoever as to what it prevented from being told if the creative teams wanted to. Likewise I fail to see how it prevented utilization of the supporting cast. That they didn't use the supporting cast well was a problem completely independent of the fact that Superman was dating someone outside his mythos. In Superman's history his supporting cast has been used well, not enough, and too much. This was a time that it was used not enough. But I don't see any correlation whatsoever to who Superman was dating at the time. So these things definitely change the perception--false perception, I contend--that it created inconvenience. From where I stand it just looks like specious reasoning and connecting dots that don't really connect at all.

As far as specific positive things that it did for their own solo books, as a lifelong fan of these two characters interacting regardless, the fact she showed up often in Superman was a personal plus for me. It didn't do anything positive, nor negative for that matter, to her own solo because it was ignored. With that said though, its rather irrelevant to my argument. I wasn't challenging your opinion of not it not doing anything good for the Superman books. I was challenging your assertion that it outright prevented other stories frombeing possible to be told. And I stand by saying that that's a completely unsupportable claim.

It created limits with what they could do, therefore it was inconvenience. It's really not complicated and I'm not sure where you're confused. Anyway, did she really show up in the Superbooks any more often than she ever did before or since for that matter?

[DochaDocha]

Just a friendly debate on a Saturday night, sir. What do you want me to do, say I disagree and then NOT provide reasons why?

[darkseidpwns]

I would say if writers would ignore it, then they're not really being significantly restrained by the idea. Look at stuff like "Unchained."

I agree with your point about sustainability, but overall, I think among the things that was stifling creativity for writers, it comes a distant second to crossover arcs. For periods there, we had five titles doing four different things (more if you include JL), and then we had four titles dedicated to one thing.

You brought up Unchained, notice how Snyder tried his damned hardest for a Superman/Lois romance but he just couldn't go there 100%, it was like window shopping, not even subtle. He couldn't do it because the editorial had a strict mandate, the company was pushing for a romance with Wonder Woman while the writers were in active denial mode. So what happened was that they lost freedom to tell their own romance stories and use characters that they wanted. In short I will just go and say that Superman/Wonder Woman is the real reason Nuperman had to bite the dust. That relationship killed him.

[Agniwolf]

You brought up Unchained, notice how Snyder tried his damned hardest for a Superman/Lois romance but he just couldn't go there 100%, it was like window shopping, not even subtle. He couldn't do it because the editorial had a strict mandate, the company was pushing for a romance with Wonder Woman while the writers were in active denial mode. So what happened was that they lost freedom to tell their own romance stories and use characters that they wanted. In short I will just go and say that Superman/Wonder Woman is the real reason Nuperman had to bite the dust. That relationship killed him.

sad but true!!!

back to controversial i think superman should ditch Earth "per se" and try to convince the league to start trade/diplomatic relations with other star systems and thus unfocus in earth problems and focus in galaxy problems, maybe becoming some sort of support to the GL. i would dare to say that if the GL are the spacecops, then the league should be a war relief/mediator kind of organization

and i still think jon should only exist if the mother is either maxima, faora or kara because of genetics (and some shipping preferences, but lets not go there)
also lois should look her age, sexy maybe milf, but still her age (which is what? close to 50ies?)

[dumbduck]

It would've been even harder to handle the relationship if it had been an integral part of all these books. They wanted also to differentiate the series: AC had Lana as supporting cast and other characters such as Steel, SM had Lois and the Metropolis cast, BM/SM had Batman (of course), while the SM/WW relationship had a whole book that focused on it. Finch used the relationship in her WW run, with Diana struggling with the various aspects of her life and her desire to have a family with Kal.

I understand. Still seems little when compared to Lois and Clark. But as I said before, if most writers didn't want it there's no forcing the issue.

I didn't mean to involve you into the discussion, just using your post was convenient. Luckily Docha Docha and Sacred Knight are saying pretty much everything I'd mean to say.

He also added this to the interview: https://mobile.twitter.com/geoffjohn...01038262865920

Hm. Did I see this before? Well, it's all in the past now.

[Ra-El]

sad but true!!!

back to controversial i think superman should ditch Earth "per se" and try to convince the league to start trade/diplomatic relations with other star systems and thus unfocus in earth problems and focus in galaxy problems, maybe becoming some sort of support to the GL. i would dare to say that if the GL are the spacecops, then the league should be a war relief/mediator kind of organization

and i still think jon should only exist if the mother is either maxima, faora or kara because of genetics (and some shipping preferences, but lets not go there)
also lois should look her age, sexy maybe milf, but still her age (which is what? close to 50ies?)

Agree that Superman shouldn't be bond to Earth like he is, if he is so powerful that he atract atention from beings like Mongul, Brainiac and Darkseid, he should step up and try to operate in a large scale.

I think that Superman Reborn deaged Clark and Lois, I believe that they are probably 35 more or less now.

[stephtanner]

You brought up Unchained, notice how Snyder tried his damned hardest for a Superman/Lois romance but he just couldn't go there 100%, it was like window shopping, not even subtle. He couldn't do it because the editorial had a strict mandate, the company was pushing for a romance with Wonder Woman while the writers were in active denial mode. So what happened was that they lost freedom to tell their own romance stories and use characters that they wanted. In short I will just go and say that Superman/Wonder Woman is the real reason Nuperman had to bite the dust. That relationship killed him.

I'm in the process of reading Superman Unchained and see what you mean. I like the chemistry between Supes and Lois but of course no romantic relationship came to fruition since DC had their eggs in another basket at the time.

I missed a huge chunk of the New 52, but from what I understand, Lois as a character was hurt the most during the New 52 era. So she served the role as some "forbidden fruit" for Supes and that's it? Was her friendship with Supes actually developed and shown or was it just lip service? And why did they ever give her that lame nonentity boyfriend?

All in all, whatever the era, I think Lois should be used more. Ever since the New 52, it seems like DC is not invested in her all that much as an individual. She has been underused, misused, or mischaracterized far too much in recent years.

[DochaDocha]

You brought up Unchained, notice how Snyder tried his damned hardest for a Superman/Lois romance but he just couldn't go there 100%, it was like window shopping, not even subtle. He couldn't do it because the editorial had a strict mandate, the company was pushing for a romance with Wonder Woman while the writers were in active denial mode. So what happened was that they lost freedom to tell their own romance stories and use characters that they wanted. In short I will just go and say that Superman/Wonder Woman is the real reason Nuperman had to bite the dust. That relationship killed him.

I'll let you have the last say on this, because I feel like too much of this thread is devoted to this topic, so here's my last bits.

In "Unchained," what you couldn't have was specific romantic elements between Supes and Lois, like kissing, declarations of love, sexy times, etc. If that's a deal breaker for you as a reader, I understand, and I can't really say much to mitigate that. I would say, though, that what wasn't restricted was Lois' involvement in the plot and the emotional bonding with Superman. It just had to be a different type of emotional bonding. It's been a long time since I read "Unchained," but my recollection of the arc was that there was romantic tension between the two characters, and if it was the first Superman comic you ever read, you'd think this was a budding relationship. Likewise, the book came out when Superman and Wonder Woman were dating, and if you otherwise weren't paying attention to the line of DC books out there, you would have had no idea. Scott Snyder was wont to say that "Unchained" was the Superman story he'd tell if he could only tell one Superman story. With the editorial restriction in place, how much of his one story to tell actually got captured in print? I feel like it's something like 90% or better. Perhaps you might think that estimate is off, or the percentage is too low, and that's cool.

Or just for kicks, let's look at Johns and JRJR's Ulysses story. I don't look back at it and think the big thing holding it back was the relationship with a Justice Leaguer, or else it could've been really spectacular. Here's a guy in Johns who had mostly had free rein, and he just told a story I wasn't all that invested in. There was too much focus on this Super Flare, and how this "new costume" (give me a break...) is a big deal and all, but it just wasn't that interesting, and then the creative team was gone. Just in general, I think writers had a lot of the Superman assets at their disposal, and could've written a lot of interesting things (like Pak did) in spite of this, but they just didn't succeed. Anyway, TL;DR, there were restrictions in place, but there was a lot of leeway nonetheless.

Anyway, peace out.