Controversial Superman Opinions

[FishyZombie]

Edit: damn picture wouldn't load up. nevermind.

[Sacred Knight]

I said in my posts, that the SM/WW pairing was detrimental, that it took away a storytelling element from Superman's stories, provided nothing in return, and that getting rid of it freed up storytelling opportunities that the main books could actually explore. And my point stands, I think it was a negative influence. You make it sound like I thought that it stopped the world from spinning or something.

It created limits with what they could do, therefore it was inconvenience. It's really not complicated and I'm not sure where you're confused. Anyway, did she really show up in the Superbooks any more often than she ever did before or since for that matter? I didn't notice.

I never implied that your opinions were somehow out of this world or crazy. I was just asking for clarification on them. What it limited, and how from a tangible story perspective it inconvenienced an ongoing narrative. My confusion lies in that those were never elaborated on. But if that's as far as the discussion is going to go, I'll move on.

[FishyZombie]

First of all that first bit was directed towards docha docha, but lets not go there. Anyway I already laid out my thoughts on the subject, I'm just repeating myself here, but I hope this clarifies my stance. Like I said before. I believe that SM/WW is what doomed new 52 Superman. If I am right about that, then that's a pretty huge ongoing narrative that got "inconvenienced." If you want elaboration, I wrote out my theory on that few pages ago. I don't have much to add there. On top of that it prevented the writers from using romantic elements and subplots in their books. Limiting what they could do with the hero's actual supporting cast, decreased incentive for the writers to use those characters and losing any drama those stories might have created.

[manofsteel1979]

First of all that first bit was directed towards docha docha, but lets not go there. Anyway I already laid out my thoughts on the subject, I'm just repeating myself here, but I hope this clarifies my stance. Like I said before. I believe that SM/WW is what doomed new 52 Superman. If I am right about that, then that's a pretty huge ongoing narrative that got "inconvenienced." If you want elaboration, I wrote out my theory on that few pages ago. I don't have much to add there. On top of that it prevented the writers from using romantic elements and subplots in their books. Limiting what they could do with the hero's actual supporting cast, decreased incentive for the writers to use those characters and losing any drama those stories might have created.

I think you are mostly right that SM/WW is the primary reason why New 52 Superman was literally replaced with another Superman until REBORN merged the two timelines, mainly because it was and unfortunately still is very polarizing among the fan base and DC felt like they had to make a show of things by symbolically killing off the New 52 by killing it's mascot, which was New 52 Superman.

The other part of the equation is that DiDio had wanted to give Lois and Clark a kid, first with Jon Lane Kent, and eventually, Jon Samuel Kent, our current SUPERBOY. Between those two factors is what led to the year worth of Stories where we had two Supermen before REBORN retconned it all away. If not for the polarization that existed and Jon being introduced, they simply would have folded more preFlashpoint elements back into New 52 Superman's timeline, Perhaps even restored SECRET ORIGIN as the official back story of Nuperman over Morrison's run or incorperated a few more elements of it into continiuity, introduced the current Reborn suit, and gone from there. I still think that's what should have been done in the first place, but it's all water under the bridge and we are in a better place ultimately...But it was a hell of a mess to get there.

[_Feely_]

Going back a bit, but Social justice Superman and Sci-Fi Superman are not mutually exclusive.

In fact, I think that the middle ground is where the money is.

[Jim Kelly]

There's not so much difference between the so-called social justice early Superman and the science fantasy later Superman. Everything is a development of the character and the fandom shouldn't divvy up the Man of Tomorrow into different camps.

Going back a bit, but Social justice Superman and Sci-Fi Superman are not mutually exclusive.

In fact, I think that the middle ground is where the money is.

Great minds . . .

[manofsteel1979]

People seem to conviently forget that Morrison's ACTION run spent only maybe 4 or 5 issues out of the 19-20 issue run doing the social justice Superman. The rest was indeed high concept sciFi.

Morrison was Indeed proving it didn't have to be all or nothing. You can run the gammut with Superman. Moreso than any character in Comics or fiction itself. It's just people ,fans and creatives alike that want to put him in a box.

[_Feely_]

Great minds . . .

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10Char

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

When it comes to them in the same Universe/continuity, Superman should be shorter and less muscular than Wonder Woman.

[dumbduck]

When it comes to them in the same Universe/continuity, Superman should be shorter and less muscular than Wonder Woman.

Disagreed. I used to agree with her being taller, but after BvS I think Superman should be undoubtedly an alpha. The Alphaest of Alphas.

Fortuitous opinion. Since Diana grew a bit I think Supes should grow some as well. From about 6feet5 upwards is a good start.

[dumbduck]

About Golden Age and or left leaning T-shirt Superman.


I like them both but I think the test of 'Truth' failed. It had many other mistakes but that part seems to also have been rejected. When we talked about the T-shirt Supes, we talked about more adventures in the past. I think there was a huge mix up about that.

It seems all my ideas, concepts and preferences are crap.

I hated Doomed, but it helped the SMWW book hold at 50k+

I liked Truth, even though I saw all it's mistakes from the start (T-shirt look in present instead of in the past+badboy haircut, power loss, drama with Diana) and it tanked.

I think that Tomasi was trying to have Diana as affected by her Goddess of War status with Clark helping her, that's why she was more agressive, but the Wondy fans (and probably many rival relationshipers) rejected it strongly and I think he backed away from that. I was supporting that.

A great thing I liked when I got back was in the very 1st issue of SMWW Soule had Diana offering to train Clark. This time it was the Supes fans that rejected, probably(clearly in some cases) worried about his 'alphaness'. I understand them now. I still like the concept.

Everything I don't like succeeds, everything I like tanks or is rejected by the fandoms.


I still hope for a 52 universe for Clark and Diana where we can get those early T-shirt champion of the oppressed adventures written by Pak and drawn by Kuder. And if the universe is their own, with a Clark that keeps this spirit in their present as well.

[Francisco]

When it comes to them in the same Universe/continuity, Superman should be shorter and less muscular than Wonder Woman.

What's the appeal? Why a super man should be shorter and less muscular than a wonder woman? Shouldn't they both be ultimate physical specimen? Both muscular, symmetrical and beautiful in their own right?

[FishyZombie]

When it comes to them in the same Universe/continuity, Superman should be shorter and less muscular than Wonder Woman.

You wouldn't happen to be a fan of Big Barda and Mister Miracle?
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[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

You wouldn't happen to be a fan of Big Barda and Mister Miracle?
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For the most part, I like them conceptually, but unfortunately I haven't read a lot of their stories.

[Adekis]

People seem to conviently forget that Morrison's ACTION run spent only maybe 4 or 5 issues out of the 19-20 issue run doing the social justice Superman. The rest was indeed high concept sciFi.

Morrison was Indeed proving it didn't have to be all or nothing. You can run the gammut with Superman. Moreso than any character in Comics or fiction itself. It's just people ,fans and creatives alike that want to put him in a box.

Well of course. My favorite thing about that Superman was that after he started wearing the Action Suit he got from the Collector, he still kept taking to the streets in his t-shirt and jeans. It wasn't something he did at first and then stopped, the T-shirt Superman was a concept that the writers could have used indefinitely!

Which of course makes it a total f#cking waste that they didn't, of course.