Controversial Superman Opinions

[Superlad93]

Well of course. My favorite thing about that Superman was that after he started wearing the Action Suit he got from the Collector, he still kept taking to the streets in his t-shirt and jeans. It wasn't something he did at first and then stopped, the T-shirt Superman was a concept that the writers could have used indefinitely!

Part of the point of that story beat was Clark having a crisis of identity. He couldn't reconcile Clark Kent, Superman of the JL, and Superman of the people. The point was for Clark to streamline all the identities. Clark Kent took on some of the slack of "Superman of the people," and Superman expanded his "neighborhood watch." Morrison has Batman shed a light on the possible future perception that people might have of Clark's big brother tactics if they were taken to their logical extremes. Morrison then has Batman prove that Clark Kent's pen beats out T-shirt and jeans fist in the long run even if Clark himself doesn't see it. Before this Morrison makes a point to expand the level of Clark's capabilities and he deliberately replaces Superman's issues. From men in expensive designer suits to alien transformers, intergalactic amber alerts, and he caps it of with a multidimensional double-talking demon in a designer suit.

I don't think Morrison even intended for Superman to go back and forth with his T-shirt stuff. I remember multiple interviews where he talks about how he simply wanted to depict the transition from folk tale to science fiction hero. The most I recall of him talking about a continuation was the idea of other writers doing stories in the past. As I recall Pak made a point to do that twice. It doesn't seem like it was ever supposed to be more than that.

I love the T-shirt stuff greatly, but I don't think simply updating that for modern times and running it on repeat would equal a long term win for Superman.

[Adekis]

Part of the point of that story beat was Clark having a crisis of identity. He couldn't reconcile Clark Kent, Superman of the JL, and Superman of the people. The point was for Clark to streamline all the identities. Clark Kent took on some of the slack of "Superman of the people," and Superman expanded his "neighborhood watch." Morrison has Batman shed a light on the possible future perception that people might have of Clark's big brother tactics if they were taken to their logical extremes. Morrison then has Batman prove that Clark Kent's pen beats out T-shirt and jeans fist in the long run even if Clark himself doesn't see it. Before this Morrison makes a point to expand the level of Clark's capabilities and he deliberately replaces Superman's issues. From men in expensive designer suits to alien transformers, intergalactic amber alerts, and he caps it of with a multidimensional double-talking demon in a designer suit.

I don't think Morrison even intended for Superman to go back and forth with his T-shirt stuff. I remember multiple interviews where he talks about how he simply wanted to depict the transition from folk tale to science fiction hero. The most I recall of him talking about a continuation was the idea of other writers doing stories in the past. As I recall Pak made a point to do that twice. It doesn't seem like it was ever supposed to be more than that.

I love the T-shirt stuff greatly, but I don't think simply updating that for modern times and running it on repeat would equal a long term win for Superman.

I think you're reading stuff into the story that isn't there. Nothing in it ever explicitly says "Kal stepped up Clark's game to make up for his increasing lack of street-level Superman activity" or even really implies it. Clark was trying to take down "Mr. Metropolis", Glen Glenmorgan, from the very first issue- he he doesn't need to cast his net wider because it's already very wide-reaching.

I read it as the street Superman and the space Superman being fundamentally identical- the street level stuff is why he gets into the cosmic stuff- to protect the "little guys" he likes to help out, that big monsters like to step on.

Obviously though, the thing about Flashback stories is a pertinent concern. You remember in the early '90s when every other Batman story flashed back to before he met Dick Grayson? I was also hoping that the t-shirt Superman was going to be like that in terms of ubiquity.

[Superlad93]

I think you're reading stuff into the story that isn't there. Nothing in it ever explicitly says "Kal stepped up Clark's game to make up for his increasing lack of street-level Superman activity" or even really implies it. Clark was trying to take down "Mr. Metropolis", Glen Glenmorgan, from the very first issue- he he doesn't need to cast his net wider because it's already very wide-reaching.

I read it as the street Superman and the space Superman being fundamentally identical- the street level stuff is why he gets into the cosmic stuff- to protect the "little guys" he likes to help out, that big monsters like to step on.

Obviously though, the thing about Flashback stories is a pertinent concern. You remember in the early '90s when every other Batman story flashed back to before he met Dick Grayson? I was also hoping that the t-shirt Superman was going to be like that in terms of ubiquity.

Sorry bout that, I forgot to open the first part of my post with "I think." Didn't mean to present it as irrefutable. But I do think that there's some merit to it given that Morrison basically just has Batman say what he says about turning into a super powered "big brother" and then essentially leaves it at that. I remember an interview where Morrison was talking about how he envisioned that scene as a young and brash Superman still learning. Add on top the idea that Clark was at a bit of a crossroads in his life as far as who is and who he should be, I think Morrison only kept the T-shirt and jeans look in that story to illustrate that feeling of being pulled in a bunch of directions.

But I agree with you that street level Superman and space Superman a fundamentally the same. That's why I said that Clark basically expanded his his "neighborhood watch" rout to include the entirety of the 3rd dimension. He ends the story off fighting a shifty business guy, the same way he started it. But as I said before, I don't think T-shirt and jeans Superman was ever intended to be sustainable past that year one. I don't think it was ever intended that he go back and forth in the present. Morrison has said that he views this Clark as a spiritual year one of All Star Superman.

I agree that the could've easily told stories in the past. The 6 month time crunch is pretty annoying though, but workable. I was hoping that they would've kept that era and been more vague about the time crunch. Hell, I'd even sacrifice the aesthetic of the T-shirt and jeans in favor of a more classic look so long as the main idea was retained. I don't really think that would've been a big ask on Jurgen and Johns part. You could even keep him flying if you really wanna keep the lion's share of Secret Origin. Simply put the Action Comics Vol2 stuff after SO. He's already on shaky terms with the military, Lex can still more directly step in to capture Superman with the train, and Glenmorgan can be Lex's rival that he uses fresh faced and unassuming reporter Clark Kent to take down. That actually works really well because you can then dovetail into the Lois and Clark rivalry but without the whole "I essentially cashed in on my alter ego" foolishness.

And since he's flying and we're doing Golden age homages, why not make the visual expression of his early flying very similar to the Fleischer Superman's bounding and dive bombing? Now you've got yourself a true "catch-all" Superman, I feel.

[Kuwagaton]

For all things considered a good Superman, I think the Man of Steel ongoing was the most complete title ever. Very largely done by only two creative teams with tons of variety and diversity. Shultz was more or less a genius of a superman writer, coming on and knocking down the house so frequently. Not just writing his own good stories featuring the marriage and feats and quirks and supporting cast, but making it through sheer continuity and a ton of crossovers. Coming on at the end of a year long story to push through Y2K, President Lex, OWAW, Emperor Joker, fill ins like the Wolfman stories, Infestation, and ending battle. Man.

[Ascended]

You're right, there's an endless spectrum of stories for that kinda Superman. Stories that would feel modern and new. Exciting. A clean break away from the punch up video game style stories we get now.

Superman is aching for this kind of treatment, to be honest. For someone to come in and let him live up to his folk legend name. I'm just not sure DC would allow a somewhat politically charged Superman (I'd argue fighting oppression, in all forms, is not a political issue- but alas).

I've been dreaming up a Superman title like this for some time now, and now that Young Animal is here it's the perfect time. I'd love to write it but since that isn't going to happen, I'd love to see China Melville on it. Steve Pugh doing the art, similar to his HOTWIRE book from Radical Publishing.

That's sort of my thought. Its time Superman lived up to his own legend again.

Social commentary is what made Superman. He got to fight back against the forces the poor and downtrodden were powerless to challenge, and it resonated with the masses in a powerful way. As a society, we're in the same place now we were then. And handled right, Superman could speak to that again.

Of course we can't forget all the other themes and high concept stuff that has filled out and enriched the mythos since the 40's, and we shouldn't; those elements have kept Superman in the public consciousness and built upon the foundation to turn him into a god of fiction. But that socially aware core? That needs to matter again. We can use fantastical proxies and allegory made of science fantasy but if Superman stops an alien tyrant from taking over Rann, does that elicit the same visceral reaction as seeing him take down a more "realistic" dictator? I think not.

People are so worried about Superman having an actual opinion, and that opinion actually saying something of merit and offending someone, that Superman has become neutered. I think its past time Superman got his balls back, and said something of consequence. And if some people get upset because he actually has something vaguely akin to a political opinion and they can't handle it being a little different? Then f**k 'em, they can be replaced by readers who appreciate a Superman who matters. And yes, I recognize that this might mean Clark says or does something I dont like. Im fine with that (excluding obvious things like blatant bigotry or sexism), I dont need my personal politics mirrored in everything I digest. That's how adults handle things, its only children who can't abide a difference of opinion.

Dude once went up against the KKK. That story actually hurt recruitment. A fictional character had a real-life, measurable impact on the world for the better. Would DC have the stones to do something like that today? And if not, we should be asking ourselves what kind of management is too afraid to take a stand for basic decency. Because that's not a management that deserves the Man of Tomorrow.

[Francisco]

Superman is mostly associated with American military might. It its time for Superman to be associated with American (and the world in general) humanitarian efforts. When I think of Superman I don't think of US air-carriers and atomic submarines. To me he is not a soldier or a marine. He is a rescuers, a fire fighter, a volunteer. A good and friendly neighbor ready to lend a hand.

He's like this guy. If Clark Kent was real this would be a day of his life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZGghmwUcbQ

[Slaughter]

What's wrong with military might? Military might is a good thing, a strong military is not something you just get from a bunch of guys with weaponry and intent to use it. Military Might requires, first of all, resources to feed it. Resources mean work, work means labour which requires work ethic and dedication. To assemble and prepare these resources requires logistics, which requires coordination and rationalization, which requires planning. To then turn those military resources into a fighting force requires discipline, tactics, strategy as well.

A country with a strong military is a strong country. No country has ever been strong without a strong military. It is likely that the stronger your military is, the better your country is.

The might is not the problem, its how you use it.

[Slaughter]

For all things considered a good Superman, I think the Man of Steel ongoing was the most complete title ever. Very largely done by only two creative teams with tons of variety and diversity. Shultz was more or less a genius of a superman writer, coming on and knocking down the house so frequently. Not just writing his own good stories featuring the marriage and feats and quirks and supporting cast, but making it through sheer continuity and a ton of crossovers. Coming on at the end of a year long story to push through Y2K, President Lex, OWAW, Emperor Joker, fill ins like the Wolfman stories, Infestation, and ending battle. Man.

Schutz was like the 2000s Roger Stern. Not a big name, but he always delivered that delicious dose of "better than you expected". Cult classic stuff.

[Carabas]

What's wrong with military might? Military might is a good thing, a strong military is not something you just get from a bunch of guys with weaponry and intent to use it. Military Might requires, first of all, resources to feed it. Resources mean work, work means labour which requires work ethic and dedication. To assemble and prepare these resources requires logistics, which requires coordination and rationalization, which requires planning. To then turn those military resources into a fighting force requires discipline, tactics, strategy as well.

A country with a strong military is a strong country. No country has ever been strong without a strong military. It is likely that the stronger your military is, the better your country is.

The might is not the problem, its how you use it.

There are no examples of countries with great military might who have not abused that might horribly.

And what you describe isn't military might but a military-industrial complex, and that always goes wrong because it's not even people anymore who are in control of that.

[stephens2177]

Superman is a great volunteer,who does what he does without expecting anything in return,but he is all about ppl taking care of themselves,not just relying on him.

So yeah all the posters are correct,they just have half of it right.

[dancj]

There are no examples of countries with great military might who have not abused that might horribly.

Pretty much what I was going to say. Find a country with a great military might which actually uses it responsibly and I'll have less of an issue with great military might.

[Ra-El]

Maybe someone already said it, but Superman should know how to fight. I don't need him to be a ninja, but he should be able to handle himself in hand to hand combat. It pretty old that scene when someone that Superman should be able to defeat is able to keep up with him because he have no training and just rely on brute force. If that's true, how is he able to defeat Mongul or Zod? Both with power levels on pair with him and trained warriors?

[Agent Z]

Maybe someone already said it, but Superman should know how to fight. I don't need him to be a ninja, but he should be able to handle himself in hand to hand combat. It pretty old that scene when someone that Superman should be able to defeat is able to keep up with him because he have no training and just rely on brute force. If that's true, how is he able to defeat Mongul or Zod? Both with power levels on pair with him and trained warriors?

With Mongul, he has powers the former does not have and with Zod he's more experienced in using his powers so it evens out

[Lvenger]

Maybe someone already said it, but Superman should know how to fight. I don't need him to be a ninja, but he should be able to handle himself in hand to hand combat. It pretty old that scene when someone that Superman should be able to defeat is able to keep up with him because he have no training and just rely on brute force. If that's true, how is he able to defeat Mongul or Zod? Both with power levels on pair with him and trained warriors?

He does know how to fight. Post Crisis he's trained with Mongul II, Batman, Wonder Woman and Wildcat apparently and knows how to use pressure points. And during Convergence he spent a year without his powers and learnt how to fight which Luthor complimented him on in the Men of Steel story.

[DochaDocha]

He knows how to fight, until the writers say he doesn't know how to fight.