Controversial Superman Opinions

[DochaDocha]

Oh, Clark totally knows how to fight.

We know this for a fact, because we've seen him train with a number of people, spar with a number of people, and its been straight up said that the League provides combat training as one of the first things they teach their members. And that includes psychic defenses too, because those meddlesome telepaths and mages are always trying to mind control big powerful heroes.

I have a slightly different view on Clark's combat prowess than many here, though. I think Clark's a skilled, mixed-discipline fighter, but he's learned how to fight in an environment that renders traditional, human combat styles moot. What good is a throw when the person you throw can fly? What good is knocking them into a floor or wall when that floor or wall might as well be made of paper? What good is a choke hold when the person in question doesnt need to breathe more than once every few months? Clark plays by a different set of physics than the rest of us, and his fighting style should reflect that.

I think if you were to take Clark's powers away and make him a regular human (and I dont think you can because even a baseline Kryptonian should be Golden Age in power level) he wouldn't know how to defend himself because things like gravity have never/rarely been a consideration; almost everything he knows about fighting (beyond how to throw a punch) is wrong. But at the same time, if you were to give (someone like) Batman the same powers as Clark, all that combat training is useless, and probably even a hindrance since their instincts would work against him.

Clark knows how to fight. He wont be making any "Best Fighters....." lists, because hurting people isn't his main focus (he's a first responder, not a soldier) but he can take care of himself just fine.

All of this.

If I could write one fight scene, I would pit Supes against some similarly physically strong person but is a trained warrior. Supes would take a pounding early because he's not a traditional martial artist. Supes can't beat that person on his/her terms, but he can (and will) win if Supes finds ways to dictate the fight. He's not going to out kickbox Wonder Woman. He's not going to win a slugfest with Doomsday. But he'll find a way.

[Superlad93]

I'm pretty cool with 2 interpretations for Clark and combat:

1. He's a surprisingly good fighter due to his years of being a hero, and now he knows strange and obscure fighting styles that he occasionally busts out like a new power. This idea has the charm of the classic square jawed Doc Savage feel. Cool for what it is.

Or

2. He's a pretty average fighter who leans heavily on grit, sheer stubbornness, and opportunity to win his tougher hand to hand fights. I kind of like the idea that he's able to beat world breakers with all the knowledge that come watching old Ali tapes with his dad as a kid, and going to the Saturday morning self defense class at the Y a few blocks down as an adult. This idea is actually pretty fun to me, and sort of puts Clark in a interesting position every time he fights a guy comparable to him in power.

The second probably isn't a popular idea around these parts, but I think it's pretty charming when applied to Superman.

[Ra-El]

Oh, Clark totally knows how to fight.

We know this for a fact, because we've seen him train with a number of people, spar with a number of people, and its been straight up said that the League provides combat training as one of the first things they teach their members. And that includes psychic defenses too, because those meddlesome telepaths and mages are always trying to mind control big powerful heroes.

I have a slightly different view on Clark's combat prowess than many here, though. I think Clark's a skilled, mixed-discipline fighter, but he's learned how to fight in an environment that renders traditional, human combat styles moot. What good is a throw when the person you throw can fly? What good is knocking them into a floor or wall when that floor or wall might as well be made of paper? What good is a choke hold when the person in question doesnt need to breathe more than once every few months? Clark plays by a different set of physics than the rest of us, and his fighting style should reflect that.

I think if you were to take Clark's powers away and make him a regular human (and I dont think you can because even a baseline Kryptonian should be Golden Age in power level) he wouldn't know how to defend himself because things like gravity have never/rarely been a consideration; almost everything he knows about fighting (beyond how to throw a punch) is wrong. But at the same time, if you were to give (someone like) Batman the same powers as Clark, all that combat training is useless, and probably even a hindrance since their instincts would work against him.

Clark knows how to fight. He wont be making any "Best Fighters....." lists, because hurting people isn't his main focus (he's a first responder, not a soldier) but he can take care of himself just fine.

I don't know, what you said make sense. For all the problems I have with Truth, one of the things I liked is that at least on the Action Comics we get to see Superman fighting depowered, and he handle it pretty well. Like I said I don't need him to be a black belt or a ninja, but after years of experience he should be a capable fighter, as someone who likes martial arts and have some training (plus I used to get in a few fights up until my 17-18 years) I can say that is totally possible someone with training lose a fight to a person who lack training but have more experince in fights, I know this because I already was on both sides.

[stephens2177]

If superman has a super brain then he should be able to learn every way to fight as fast as he learned to be a surgeon,and if he kept relearning it over and over again,it would stick.

His senses are so acute every movement he makes should be perfect.someone like Daredevil has this,now take it up to SUPER levels.

Can we all remember Clark is probably in his 30s(early probably),and wasn't sitting behind a computer his whole life.he was on a farm,always being physical.not to mention he has had years of fighting every damn thing in the universe,how can anybody with any kinda of intelligence think he can't fight

[Kuwagaton]

I'd love more specific references to those issues/panels if you don't mind.

(big boxing fan myself and love whenever it features in comics)

Man, it's harder than I thought coming up with good scan examples from my phone without my computer, haha. I wanted to find a page from "who took the super out of Superman? " He chin checks Steve Lombard with giving him am orthodox protip: don't lead with your right.

Post-Crisis, Clark was a Golden Gloves champ, pretty much from day one, wasn't he?

I wanna say that sounds a bit familiar. Lois was actually a great fighter, too.

[Jon Clark]

If superman has a super brain then he should be able to learn every way to fight as fast as he learned to be a surgeon,and if he kept relearning it over and over again,it would stick.

His senses are so acute every movement he makes should be perfect.someone like Daredevil has this,now take it up to SUPER levels.

Can we all remember Clark is probably in his 30s(early probably),and wasn't sitting behind a computer his whole life.he was on a farm,always being physical.not to mention he has had years of fighting every damn thing in the universe,how can anybody with any kinda of intelligence think he can't fight

Because why would you need to fight when your invulnerability and strength are so great that none of your opponents up until this point have been able to slow you down. Picture a fight between Action Comics #1 Superman and your average fighter. Superman takes every punch the guy throws- no blocking necessary. Then Superman throws punches that stun the guy if they even brush the skin. (And this is not using super-speed of any sort to counter the guy ducking or weaving). Clark wins

Now realize that most Superman opponents are basically that average fighter compared to Superman. Clark doesn't need to block or dodge punches until his opponents are able to hit harder than his invulnerability protects him from. He doesn't need to learn how to target his punches until his opponents can dodge his blows or are tough enough not to be defeated by sheer force. So a 20-yr old Superman is more likely to be an overconfident guy who has never been in a real brawl who won't see the need for skill until his first real challenging opponent comes along. The only exception is if he had a Superboy and/or Legion career prior to his Metropolis debut.

Any real combat training he receives would be either for controlling his power (how to control the force of his punches and redirect them is a weaker person steps in front of him) or something he develops to deal with tougher opponents as he encounters them.

[stephens2177]

But, you forgot one big problem with your idea

He hasn't just fought *under* his weight class.even when he wasn't fighting super strong alien bad guys he has had shitloads of physical challenges.

This isn't the silver age where he just stands there laughing at bad guys.this Reborn version of Superman has had tons of heroes and villians on his level,not to mention bad guys just throwijg evil schemes and wrecking balls at him.

[DochaDocha]

You could argue that Superman could quickly learn fighting technique, but he's not really one who'd have many chances to practice advanced martial arts. You could say the techniques are the science, but the application of techniques are the art. You could also argue that many of Superman's physical challenges don't necessarily get eased by practical application of common fighting skills. For instance, Jeet Kune Do might help you or me win a street brawl, but it's not necessarily helpful for Superman to beat Doomsday or Darkseid.

[Kuwagaton]

The best examples of combat prowess to me, with and without power, are the For Tomorrow fight with Diana and the scene from the Johns Legion story. Although it's a little silly that he couldn't tell he lost the strength to juggle mountains, the bullet catch was a cool scene and he adapted accordingly.

The guy spends ALL of his time using sensitivity and precision so that he completely blends in with humans. Or he's exerting strength in a way that doesn't cause accidental death or destruction. He'd have to be a master of calibration.

The shell shocked baby from Superman II was the worst. He'd have a good understanding of pain and touch even with invulnerability, especially in continuities where he has tough fights or missions. Getting knocked for a loop isn't foreign and like most men in great shape he can easily eat it if he sees it coming.

Fighting is often placed in the category of art, but it's very much about science. There's a correct way to do things that wouldn't change because of power level or speed. Batman would be the most formidable being in the universe if he gained kryptonian powers and dedicated a few months to learning them. Even then passing as a human would take years to learn. Of course, that will just never happen. Superman, as shown in fighting Wonder Woman, is very rarely matched physically, and of those matches it is even less common to find his natural understanding of action or experience with the tremendous powers. Faora for one can't really dominate him because she'd never have the free time to learn the powers as well.

[Agent Z]

The best examples of combat prowess to me, with and without power, are the For Tomorrow fight with Diana and the scene from the Johns Legion story. Although it's a little silly that he couldn't tell he lost the strength to juggle mountains, the bullet catch was a cool scene and he adapted accordingly.

The guy spends ALL of his time using sensitivity and precision so that he completely blends in with humans. Or he's exerting strength in a way that doesn't cause accidental death or destruction. He'd have to be a master of calibration.

The shell shocked baby from Superman II was the worst. He'd have a good understanding of pain and touch even with invulnerability, especially in continuities where he has tough fights or missions. Getting knocked for a loop isn't foreign and like most men in great shape he can easily eat it if he sees it coming.

Fighting is often placed in the category of art, but it's very much about science. There's a correct way to do things that wouldn't change because of power level or speed. Batman would be the most formidable being in the universe if he gained kryptonian powers and dedicated a few months to learning them. Even then passing as a human would take years to learn. Of course, that will just never happen. Superman, as shown in fighting Wonder Woman, is very rarely matched physically, and of those matches it is even less common to find his natural understanding of action or experience with the tremendous powers. Faora for one can't really dominate him because she'd never have the free time to learn the powers as well.

Pretty sure he reacted that way in Superman 2 because that was the first time he felt a hit

[DochaDocha]

The best examples of combat prowess to me, with and without power, are the For Tomorrow fight with Diana and the scene from the Johns Legion story. Although it's a little silly that he couldn't tell he lost the strength to juggle mountains, the bullet catch was a cool scene and he adapted accordingly.

The guy spends ALL of his time using sensitivity and precision so that he completely blends in with humans. Or he's exerting strength in a way that doesn't cause accidental death or destruction. He'd have to be a master of calibration.

The shell shocked baby from Superman II was the worst. He'd have a good understanding of pain and touch even with invulnerability, especially in continuities where he has tough fights or missions. Getting knocked for a loop isn't foreign and like most men in great shape he can easily eat it if he sees it coming.

Fighting is often placed in the category of art, but it's very much about science. There's a correct way to do things that wouldn't change because of power level or speed. Batman would be the most formidable being in the universe if he gained kryptonian powers and dedicated a few months to learning them. Even then passing as a human would take years to learn. Of course, that will just never happen. Superman, as shown in fighting Wonder Woman, is very rarely matched physically, and of those matches it is even less common to find his natural understanding of action or experience with the tremendous powers. Faora for one can't really dominate him because she'd never have the free time to learn the powers as well.

Yeah. In my idealized Superman origin story, I'd make it a point that he had to spend a long time figuring out how not to be the proverbial bull in the china shop. Maybe it's because I'm nerdy by nature and I try to think about the physics a lot, but I feel so many writers are missing out on tons of interesting stories to tell that can help flesh out the character, but they don't want to think of the science. If anything, if you wanted to explain that Superman's not a skilled fighter, you could say it's because he spent years training himself to walk on egg shells with his movements that it's hard for him to do that and then unleash holy terror using his fists. Even Post-Crisis did a decent job explaining that Supes subconsciously holds back. That's not the same as saying he can't be good at martial arts, because essentially no fighter puts all his force and weight into a punch or kick the way Superman did in his double KO with Doomsday. Nonetheless, thanks to years of always being in complete control and avoiding things like punching, it's going to be tough to go into max-damage combat mode when all of his inclination is to be careful. What a build-up that would make for a final battle when he has to go full on.

[stephens2177]

Pretty sure he reacted that way in Superman 2 because that was the first time he felt a hit

Modern comic superman and Christopher Reeve silver age Superman 2 movie Superman are totally not the same.

[daBronzeBomma]

These recent comments kinda solidify something I'd been thinking for a while.

Kal-El should be the first Superboy, only he doesn't publicly debut in our time until he has become Superman.

Clark should wear the super-suit (without the cape) from age 12/13 through age 22/23. For 10 years, a full decade, Clark has extremely covert adventures in our time on Earth and extremely public adventures with the Legion of Super-Heroes in the future / deep space. He makes dumb decisions and learns from them during that time. That's when he should find out the hard way if he isn't careful with his immense power, people will die. The future will be more forgiving of his learning curve than our present will be.

Clark's time as Superboy would allow him to make ALL the necessary dumb mistakes so that by his debut time as Superman (which should be when he first dons the cape to go with the suit) has him already wised up to what could happen if he is not careful. Superman still makes mistakes, he ain't God with a capital G, but those mistakes shouldn't be dumb (not at his power level), just hard choices he may regret (and those should be rare).

Also, as Superboy, Clark damn sure gets formally trained by, and spars with, Val Armorr, for many years.

[Kuwagaton]

Pretty sure he reacted that way in Superman 2 because that was the first time he felt a hit

Yeah, he was invincible his whole life so it'd be a problem to be very effective. The depower was basically magic, though, because it made him just a normal man instead of creating the serious problems one would have from being completely protected from touch and pressures for an entire lifetime. And it's not like he was an alien who never heard of getting punched in the face, so they oversold the reaction by making him look like a fool.

The idea is still kinda interesting, but making Superman a "weenie" without his powers is pretty harmful imo.

[Zero Hunter]

These recent comments kinda solidify something I'd been thinking for a while.

Kal-El should be the first Superboy, only he doesn't publicly debut in our time until he has become Superman.

Clark should wear the super-suit (without the cape) from age 12/13 through age 22/23. For 10 years, a full decade, Clark has extremely covert adventures in our time on Earth and extremely public adventures with the Legion of Super-Heroes in the future / deep space. He makes dumb decisions and learns from them during that time. That's when he should find out the hard way if he isn't careful with his immense power, people will die. The future will be more forgiving of his learning curve than our present will be.

Clark's time as Superboy would allow him to make ALL the necessary dumb mistakes so that by his debut time as Superman (which should be when he first dons the cape to go with the suit) has him already wised up to what could happen if he is not careful. Superman still makes mistakes, he ain't God with a capital G, but those mistakes shouldn't be dumb (not at his power level), just hard choices he may regret (and those should be rare).

Also, as Superboy, Clark damn sure gets formally trained by, and spars with, Val Armorr, for many years.

I don't think he should ever be Superboy in modern times. I think the only time he should have been Superboy is when he was in the future with the Legion. It just doesn't make sense these days that he would have been able to to hide running around in Smallville without people figuring out real fast who Superman is. If they keep it all in the future he still gets all the training and fighting experience without the risks of being exposed. Maybe Saturn Girl put a suggestion in his head that influenced him to keep a very low profile with his powers when he was not with them.