Controversial Superman Opinions

[FishyZombie]

Controversial Opinion? I honestly like Action Comics Rebirth. I see some folks really rag on this & I honestly don't know why. It's really the best place to get traditional Superman Action compared to the Main book following Clark & his family (which is great), I though it handled the loose ends of the New 52 stuff relatively well before Reborn & I like that Jurgen's hasn't thrown Lex under the bus & revert him to his villainous ways (yet anyway). Also it did a nice Eff you to Marvel's Civil War II & that was just savage.

same here, though I think the hate largely died down at this point. It was mostly because of Superman punching Lex and blue Lois stealing red Lois's life (which was actually kinda messed up but it was quickly retconned, so it's a non issue now). It's been consistently a good read otherwise.

[daBronzeBomma]

I want DC to actually live up to how they advertised the 1998 in-continuity (at the time) one-shot magazine SUPERMAN FOREVER.



I vividly remember another tagline that went with it:

"Not just the World's Greatest Super-Hero. Not just the World's Most Powerful Super-Hero. The World's Original Super-Hero!"

I wish I could find a scan or link to that promo from 1998.

Because, as far as I'm concerned: those three sentences should become the first 3 Commandments for how DC should treat Superman.

[Carabas]

"Not just the World's Greatest Super-Hero. Not just the World's Most Powerful Super-Hero. The World's Original Super-Hero!"

I wish I could find a scan or link to that promo from 1998.

Because, as far as I'm concerned: those three sentences should become the first 3 Commandments for how DC should treat Superman.

You can't just go around treating your entire universe (including the parts that outsell and are more popular than superman) like a fifth wheel.

[DochaDocha]

You can't just go around treating your entire universe (including the parts that outsell and are more popular than superman) like a fifth wheel.

At least for Batman's sake, there's always some semantic excuse you can make. There are people who argue Batman's not a "superhero" because he doesn't have superpowers, and you could always apply some other superlative to Batman like "World's Greatest Detective" or "World's Greatest Crime Fighter," etc.

[Jim Kelly]

In terms of publishing history, Superman popularized the word "super-hero." So he might be seen as the first super-hero in those terms. But retroactively, we now think of a lot of other heroes in fiction and legend as super-heroes. So it seems a really picky and pesky issue to argue that Superman has to be the first super-hero in his fictional universe.

Given all the travels through time in the pre-Crisis comics, I don't think even Superman thought of himself as the first super-hero. You're tying both hands behind the writers' backs and blindfolding them to boot, if you insist that there can't be any super-heroes before Clark decides to come out to the world.

I mean--if Superman was Deadpool or if he had Ambush Bug playing that role--then there could be some meta moment where the reader is informed that the Man of Steel was the first super-hero in the publishing history (ignoring Popeye, Gladiator and Doc Savage), but I don't see the value in forcing the fictional universe to fit that argument.

[SiegePerilous02]

You can't just go around treating your entire universe (including the parts that outsell and are more popular than superman) like a fifth wheel.

Why not? The premise of the other characters don't hinge on being the mightiest the way Superman's does, and he won't even be appearing in their stories on a regular basis anyway.

The only characters maybe getting short changed by him being the "original" in-universe are the JSA, and they should be on their own Earth anyway.

[Johnny Thunders!]

In terms of publishing history, Superman popularized the word "super-hero." So he might be seen as the first super-hero in those terms. But retroactively, we now think of a lot of other heroes in fiction and legend as super-heroes. So it seems a really picky and pesky issue to argue that Superman has to be the first super-hero in his fictional universe.

Given all the travels through time in the pre-Crisis comics, I don't think even Superman thought of himself as the first super-hero. You're tying both hands behind the writers' backs and blindfolding them to boot, if you insist that there can't be any super-heroes before Clark decides to come out to the world.

I mean--if Superman was Deadpool or if he had Ambush Bug playing that role--then there could be some meta moment where the reader is informed that the Man of Steel was the first super-hero in the publishing history (ignoring Popeye, Gladiator and Doc Savage), but I don't see the value in forcing the fictional universe to fit that argument.

This makes a lot of sense and I think this works as a concept if you allow the DC universe to have a Simpsons type of continuity, tell whatever story you want with whatever continuity works. I would say DC had that Pre-Crisis to some extent. However Post-Crisis, DC did try and set up a universe where the debut of a Superhero had a first moment with the JSA and I always found it strange that Batman and Superman would follow them. Especially when Year One stories were constantly being told. I am out of date for sure! Superman's debut is still celebrated in this context but I would rather he start the whole thing if there has to be a first Superhero. Thats why I love the Earth 2 idea. Superman gets to debut first there with the JSA and first again before the JLA. Actually, I may start arguing that Aquaman be the first DC hero because, life started in the sea so why not he be the first superhero?

I just checked my copy of Crisis on Infinite Earths and it looks like Anthro might be the first Superhero with the Green Lantern Corps as first interstellar team!

[SiegePerilous02]

This makes a lot of sense and I think this works as a concept if you allow the DC universe to have a Simpsons type of continuity, tell whatever story you want with whatever continuity works. I would say DC had that Pre-Crisis to some extent. However Post-Crisis, DC did try and set up a universe where the debut of a Superhero had a first moment with the JSA and I always found it strange that Batman and Superman would follow them. Especially when Year One stories were constantly being told. I am out of date for sure! Superman's debut is still celebrated in this context but I would rather he start the whole thing if there has to be a first Superhero. Thats why I love the Earth 2 idea. Superman gets to debut first there with the JSA and first again before the JLA. Actually, I may start arguing that Aquaman be the first DC hero because, life started in the sea so why not he be the first superhero?

It was always strange. In-universe, they tried to sell it that the JL (specifically the Trinity) would look up to the JSA, but it never really worked due to:

1. That only started being the case in 1986. There was a good 50 or so years before that where Superman didn't have predecessors to look up to.
2. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman weren't the ones who got canceled in the Golden Age, so I'd say their legacy is certainly a much bigger deal out-of-universe.

[Jim Kelly]

I like the Justice Society being on Earth-Two--it allows them to have their own Wonder Woman, Batman and Superman. If that's the case, the original stories don't have to be changed to fit whatever is currently happening on the main DC Earth.

But there were always Earth-One characters that I thought could be active well before Superman--but as legendary figures-- such as Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Phantom Stranger.

There were also characters established on Earth-One in the past. Roy Thomas retconned these guys to be migrants from Earth-Two, but I don't like that explanation--they could just have had counterparts on Earth-Two, as well. Among them would be Congo Bill, Robotman I, Airwave, the Guardian, the Newsboy Legion, the Boy Commandos, Zatara, Sargon, the Blackhawks, Plastic Man. And many more that will come to me later I'm sure.

[Carabas]

Why not? The premise of the other characters don't hinge on being the mightiest the way Superman's does, and he won't even be appearing in their stories on a regular basis anyway.

The only characters maybe getting short changed by him being the "original" in-universe are the JSA, and they should be on their own Earth anyway.

Why not? Because it is a surefire way to make fans of other characters hate Superman. And who gets to be the fisrst ever DC superhero (Doctor Occult, actually) isn't even what I'm talking about.

[SiegePerilous02]

Why not? Because it is a surefire way to make fans of other characters hate Superman. And who gets to be the fisrst ever DC superhero (Doctor Occult, actually) isn't even what I'm talking about.

Why should the fans of other characters hate Superman because he's more powerful? He's not even in their books, so it doesn't matter a hill of beans. The DC universe is a bizarre apocalyptic nightmare 24/7, there is more than enough crazy stuff going on for Superman to do his thing while everyone else has their own adventures. It's not like knowing Superman exists and being all mighty takes me out of an unrelated Batman story.

The first superhero thing was one of the things you quoted from deBronzeBomma so I was responding to that. Dr. Occult predates Superman, but seems more like a pulp hero than a superhero, which is a term that I don't believe actually became a thing until Superman showed up.

[Carabas]

Why should the fans of other characters hate Superman because he's more powerful? He's not even in their books, so it doesn't matter a hill of beans. The DC universe is a bizarre apocalyptic nightmare 24/7, there is more than enough crazy stuff going on for Superman to do his thing while everyone else has their own adventures. It's not like knowing Superman exists and being all mighty takes me out of an unrelated Batman story.

It matters when you start having a connected universe with crossovers, a Justice League/Society, and yearly events.

The first superhero thing was one of the things you quoted from deBronzeBomma so I was responding to that. Dr. Occult predates Superman, but seems more like a pulp hero than a superhero, which is a term that I don't believe actually became a thing until Superman showed up.

They don't let you into the Justice Society if you're not a superhero.
And the first known us of the word superhero dates back to 1899. So he's called Superman because he's a superhero, not the other way round.

[SiegePerilous02]

It matters when you start having a connected universe with crossovers, a Justice League/Society, and yearly events.

Superman being in a connected universe and being the most powerful didn't stop New Teen Titans, Swamp Thing and Legion of Superheroes from being successful pre-Crisis. Because, even though the universe was connected, the characters weren't constantly tripping over each other the way they seem to do now outside of team up titles. Is knowing Superman is out there, just existing and being awesome, enough to take somebody out of a story? Doesn't sound like a fun way to read anything.

The League can still exist with Superman being the most powerful. The whole point of the JL is to have a threat so massive none of these heroes (even him) can deal with on their own. Or they don't all need to be in the same story all the time.

And the first known us of the word superhero dates back to 1899. So he's called Superman because he's a superhero, not the other way round.

Huh, very interesting. But isn't he still the one who got the term associated with what we know of superheroes now: wearing tights and capes, and doing impossible things?

[Francisco]

The people who hate Superman will hate him no matter what DC does. So stop "chumping" him down. They won't start loving him because he is weaker than Thor and stupider than Batman. Let him live up to his own legend.

[Johnny Thunders!]

The people who hate Superman will hate him no matter what DC does. So stop "chumping" him down. They won't start loving him because he is weaker than Thor and stupider than Batman. Let him live up to his own legend.

That sounds right to me. Playing down doesn't make sense to me. At any rate, Superman launches the DC universe and it makes sense to me that a Superman predate the JSA and JLA in the DCU.

About the golden age Superman of Earth 2. I think he should be freed from the confines of World War 2 and seen as ahead of other Superhumans. He reaches an evolution that they catch up to and Earth 2 as well for that matter. Instead of bound by nostalgia, Earth 2 should seem about 100 years ahead of the main Earth 1 DCU. The tech, the effect on society... James Robinsons Earth 2 had a Darkseid invasion first but I want a whole JSA Earth 2 universe ahead of the main DCU.