Controversial Superman Opinions

[gwangung]

That sounds right to me. Playing down doesn't make sense to me. At any rate, Superman launches the DC universe and it makes sense to me that a Superman predate the JSA and JLA in the DCU.

About the golden age Superman of Earth 2. I think he should be freed from the confines of World War 2 and seen as ahead of other Superhumans. He reaches an evolution that they catch up to and Earth 2 as well for that matter. Instead of bound by nostalgia, Earth 2 should seem about 100 years ahead of the main Earth 1 DCU. The tech, the effect on society... James Robinsons Earth 2 had a Darkseid invasion first but I want a whole JSA Earth 2 universe ahead of the main DCU.

Heh. If they had all those crazy inventions the JSA had to fight, Earth 2 should indeed be way ahead of Earth 1. A sort of a retro Campbellian/Astounding SF type of future.

[Kuwagaton]

The people who hate Superman will hate him no matter what DC does. So stop "chumping" him down. They won't start loving him because he is weaker than Thor and stupider than Batman. Let him live up to his own legend.

He isn't and hasn't been either of those things. But anyway, he sells the same even if they play up the fact that in some way he's better than them.

[Agent Z]

Why not? The premise of the other characters don't hinge on being the mightiest the way Superman's does, and he won't even be appearing in their stories on a regular basis anyway.

The only characters maybe getting short changed by him being the "original" in-universe are the JSA, and they should be on their own Earth anyway.

The premise of Superman is being a good and honourable man who uses his powers to help people and his best stories aren't about his power levels.

I know this because I've gotten into many an argument with a DCEU opponent who insists that Snyder got the character wrong by making it all about his powers

I mean other characters won't be appearing in Superman's book regularly either so why would him being the most powerful and the first matter? It doesn't seem to matter to most audiences or even the company themselves

[Agent Z]

Heh. If they had all those crazy inventions the JSA had to fight, Earth 2 should indeed be way ahead of Earth 1. A sort of a retro Campbellian/Astounding SF type of future.

Both Earth 1 and 2 would be more advanced if the heroes shared their technology with the rest of the world

[Agent Z]

It was always strange. In-universe, they tried to sell it that the JL (specifically the Trinity) would look up to the JSA, but it never really worked due to:

1. That only started being the case in 1986. There was a good 50 or so years before that where Superman didn't have predecessors to look up to.
2. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman weren't the ones who got canceled in the Golden Age, so I'd say their legacy is certainly a much bigger deal out-of-universe.

You're assuming out of universe importance should dictate storytelling it shouldn't. That type of thinking is how we get Batgod. Spider-Man is more popular than Captain America but no one assumes that means Peter should become leader of the Avengers and Steve should be retconned into never having held that position

[Johnny Thunders!]

I have to admit if you want a shared Earth, Superman just isn't first. Black Adam would predate Superman.

I'm reading Crisis on Infinite Earths with the History of the DCU. They launch the modern age of heroes with the trinity of Aquaman, Batman, and Superman.

[JackDaw]

You're assuming out of universe importance should dictate storytelling it shouldn't. That type of thinking is how we get Batgod. Spider-Man is more popular than Captain America but no one assumes that means Peter should become leader of the Avengers and Steve should be retconned into never having held that position

You're right.

But when I (and I suspect others) say I want to see valid reasons why Superman is regarded as his peers as "first among equals" inside his fictional universe I don't mean that I want him to have been first super hero to appear.

What I mean is that I want to see a valid reason or reasons when there is a dire large scale emergency for the other heroes to be looking to Superman to take a prominent role. Quite often I don't think there is...really...any such reason. Yes..the other heroes are nearly always shown as regarding Superman as "special"...but frankly it's hard to see why they would have that belief. There's a couple of dozen more powerful, and a fair number more intelligent.

[stephens2177]

You're right.

But when I (and I suspect others) say I want to see valid reasons why Superman is regarded as his peers as "first among equals" inside his fictional universe I don't mean that I want him to have been first super hero to appear.

What I mean is that I want to see a valid reason or reasons when there is a dire large scale emergency for the other heroes to be looking to Superman to take a prominent role. Quite often I don't think there is...really...any such reason. Yes..the other heroes are nearly always shown as regarding Superman as "special"...but frankly it's hard to see why they would have that belief. There's a couple of dozen more powerful, and a fair number more intelligent.

Being the literal 1st,and the 1st to be looked at to be the leader or to take point are 2 different things,so agree on that.

I don't see why Superman shouldn't be the most powerful or the smartest,he is a sun demigod,and from a civilization that is about a million years ahead of us intelligently,so why wouldn't he dwarf regular humans or metas with powers

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I always thought Telltale would be a good developer for a superman game.

[FishyZombie]

I always thought Telltale would be a good developer for a superman game.

I can see it. I mean with the point and click thing, they can probably do just about any character if you think about it. And it would be cool to control Superman's personality as you see it. Maybe a play through where he's a traditional big blue boyscout, one where he's got more edge, or as a complete superdick would be fun. In an ideal world, I think I'd rather have a telltale game about John Constantine, and something more ambitious for Superman.

[SiegePerilous02]

You're assuming out of universe importance should dictate storytelling it shouldn't. That type of thinking is how we get Batgod. Spider-Man is more popular than Captain America but no one assumes that means Peter should become leader of the Avengers and Steve should be retconned into never having held that position

What Marvel does is incidental to what DC does, especially as they were created differently. Again, we have some classic runs that began during the Bronze Age where Superman's status as the mightiest was still firmly in place, and it didn't negatively impact anybody involved. To use your own example, yes Spider-Man is one of Marvel's most popular characters, but they didn't need to downplay Cap's legend in-universe in response and make Pete the best at everything and leader of the Avengers. Superman is the closest thing to DC's Cap Figure (especially before they shoved the JSA onto Earth-1), so why can't he get the same treatment as Cap? There was a time where Robin and the Titans were the main draw for DC, but we still got the sense of reverence they had for Superman whenever he appeared. Now, we'd probably have one of them prove to be smarter or beat him in a fight or some shit.

You're right.

But when I (and I suspect others) say I want to see valid reasons why Superman is regarded as his peers as "first among equals" inside his fictional universe I don't mean that I want him to have been first super hero to appear.

What I mean is that I want to see a valid reason or reasons when there is a dire large scale emergency for the other heroes to be looking to Superman to take a prominent role. Quite often I don't think there is...really...any such reason. Yes..the other heroes are nearly always shown as regarding Superman as "special"...but frankly it's hard to see why they would have that belief. There's a couple of dozen more powerful, and a fair number more intelligent.

Exactly.

I have to admit if you want a shared Earth, Superman just isn't first. Black Adam would predate Superman.

Billy gets shortchanged a lot when he shares an Earth with Clark, IMO. They are the same archetype (Morrison pointed that out when he made Earth-5 Billy the embodiment of the Superman archetype for that Earth), and they have no business being in the same canon. I think Shazam/Captain Marvel is the one character of that tier who gets treated worse than Superman on a consistent basis (sometimes it's Wonder Woman, but she's on the upswing, and also not the same archetype).

[Stanlos]

Excluding Wonder Woman, has anyone 'beat Superman in a fight' in the last twenty years?

[Jon Clark]

Excluding Wonder Woman, has anyone 'beat Superman in a fight' in the last twenty years?

Batman, If there is the slightest hint of conflict between the World's Finest heroes- odds are Batman pulls some kryptonite rabbit out of a hat to dominate Superman.

[Agent Z]

Being the literal 1st,and the 1st to be looked at to be the leader or to take point are 2 different things,so agree on that.

I don't see why Superman shouldn't be the most powerful or the smartest,he is a sun demigod,and from a civilization that is about a million years ahead of us intelligently,so why wouldn't he dwarf regular humans or metas with powers

Krypton was still backwards in many areas and it's not like Clark was raised there any way so why would just being born there make him smarter or stronger? Remember that these guys stilll blew themselves up out of ignorance

[Agent Z]

What Marvel does is incidental to what DC does, especially as they were created differently. Again, we have some classic runs that began during the Bronze Age where Superman's status as the mightiest was still firmly in place, and it didn't negatively impact anybody involved. To use your own example, yes Spider-Man is one of Marvel's most popular characters, but they didn't need to downplay Cap's legend in-universe in response and make Pete the best at everything and leader of the Avengers. Superman is the closest thing to DC's Cap Figure (especially before they shoved the JSA onto Earth-1), so why can't he get the same treatment as Cap? There was a time where Robin and the Titans were the main draw for DC, but we still got the sense of reverence they had for Superman whenever he appeared. Now, we'd probably have one of them prove to be smarter or beat him in a fight or some shit.



Exactly.



Billy gets shortchanged a lot when he shares an Earth with Clark, IMO. They are the same archetype (Morrison pointed that out when he made Earth-5 Billy the embodiment of the Superman archetype for that Earth), and they have no business being in the same canon. I think Shazam/Captain Marvel is the one character of that tier who gets treated worse than Superman on a consistent basis (sometimes it's Wonder Woman, but she's on the upswing, and also not the same archetype).

Given DC's treatment of the Titans since the Perez run ended, hell will freeze over before any of them are shown beating Superman or being smarter than him. And I've yet to see any proof that him not being the mightiest is the source of poor story quality. How many people know or even care what happens in the Bronze Age? DC doesn't seem to. Look what they've changed. WW's clay origin and Billy Baston's innocence were arguably more important to the characters' overall themes and look what happened to those.