Controversial Superman Opinions

[manofsteel1979]

I think what bothered a lot of people was that when he first showed up in the season premier he came across as the ideal Superman. Especially in comparison to the movies. Then to turn around and have him say something like "Oh, BTW, I wouldn't save the Earth if Lois was in danger" kind of undermined that view. Having her be more powerful than him doesn't surprise me being her show but the Lois statement really was out of character for him. I'll have to go back and re-watch it to confirm all this but that's how it came across to me.

My idea for the show would be that Superman disappears in a space incident or something and she has to fill in for him. Taking him out of the show altogether. But I think that ship has sailed at this point.

When the show was in the early conception stage, I think Superman was indeed supposed to be gone, but for some reason that changed. At least that's my understanding of it.

The Lois line was indeed a problem, but I don't think it was character destroying as some have alluded.

[DochaDocha]

The Lois line was indeed a problem, but I don't think it was character destroying as some have alluded.

Again, I haven't seen the episodes in question so I don't have the full context, but the line you quoted is present among some of the worst representations of the character. I consider the "good" interpretations of Superman the ones who will suffer through tragedy but ultimately prevail. The "bad" ones introduce the "one bad day" element to the character, which as we all know is a highly publicized feature of the Joker. I'm not saying it's character destroying, but it's a trait that really should be avoided.

[Jim Kelly]

This is the real problem with me. I didn't particularly care for Before Watchmen but I also didn't feel it took anything away from the original book.

Ha! I just realized I got the title totally wrong and called it AFTER WATCHMEN--just goes to show how much I completely tried to erase it from my memory.

[superduperman]

Okay, I went back and re-watched the season finale and it does come across as some sort of fan fiction. So, yes, some of the criticism of it is legitimate. This really does seem unnecessary. Either the producers have faith in her to stand on her own or they don't. It really is unnecessary to undermine him to prop her up. The ideal ending would have Superman sacrifice himself to end the Daxam threat by sending them into the Phantom Zone and himself along with them. But before he leaves he tells Kara that the Earth still needs a protector and he knows she is more than qualified. Win/win for both.

[Lvenger]

I definitely felt both Superman losing to Supergirl in a 'fair' fight and him lauding Supergirl for her sacrifice saying he couldn't have given up Lois for the Earth were awful character moments for Superman. That lost all the goodwill Hoechin's Superman gained in his first appearances. Both were damning narrative choices for the season finale, though the Lois one was far worse for Superman to be sure.

[Soubhagya]

I loved Hoelchin's take till it was undone by bad writing. I don't have much problem with his loosing to Kara or admitting it. But i have with Lois line. Even if he doubts this about himself why does he speak it aloud? Is he a baby who speaks everything that is in his mind?

Superman brand is practically destroyed nowadays. Injustice is a hit game which stresses this point. And Cavill's appear to be so(he is not though,i think). Lois is his life but that does not mean his heroism lives and dies with her. Hoelchin turned out to be no different. I hoped he would be. But i am disappointed. These lines read like fan fiction. I guess the only place i can have the heroic Superman are the comic books.

I agree it is not a big deal seen in the context of other presentations. But it is disapointing because it appeared to be an exception to the other presentations.

In some thread i fought over this point. I had not known about the Lois line just that he lost to Kara. I am ok with a Superman who is weak. But with one who speaks such lines my feelings are mixed.

[superduperman]

I loved Hoelchin's take till it was undone by bad writing. I don't have much problem with his loosing to Kara or admitting it. But i have with Lois line. Even if he doubts this about himself why does he speak it aloud? Is he a baby who speaks everything that is in his mind?

Superman brand is practically destroyed nowadays. Injustice is a hit game which stresses this point. And Cavill's appear to be so(he is not though,i think). Lois is his life but that does not mean his heroism lives and dies with her. Hoelchin turned out to be no different. I hoped he would be. But i am disappointed. These lines read like fan fiction. I guess the only place i can have the heroic Superman are the comic books.

I agree it is not a big deal seen in the context of other presentations. But it is disapointing because it appeared to be an exception to the other presentations.

In some thread i fought over this point. I had not known about the Lois line just that he lost to Kara. I am ok with a Superman who is weak. But with one who speaks such lines my feelings are mixed.

This is the biggest problem with all this. It would be nice to have one version outside the comics that isn't subservient to someone else. Everyone is somehow more noble than he is. This is what we've seen for the last decade. Whether it's JLU, Supergirl, the new movies, Injustice, or what have you, every other version in ever other media is "less than" those around him. Most people don't read comics. So you have an entire generation that has grown up with a Superman who is flawed and that's all they've known. I think the one version that wasn't in the last decade was Smallville and even he dragged his feet in becoming Superman to keep the show on the air. Supergirl seemed like the one chance to get a "good" Superman that hit all the right notes and then he went and said he'd throw the Earth under the bus for his girlfriend.

[Jim Kelly]

For the most part I'm satisfied with Tyler Hoechlin as Superman and I don't hold the occasional gaff in dialogue against him (if I was that unforgiving, I'd have to drop all the CW shows). I think you can make SUPERGIRL work on its own, with a Superman that exists somewhere out there but doesn't get involved with Supergirl's arc except a couple times a year.

If he isn't too busy, I'd like Hoechlin to be a part of the cast--either as a series regular or on recurring status. However not as Superman, but as Cyborg Superman--or some other Superman/Clark lookalike. That way they'd have Hoechlin on hand when they do need the real Superman to make an appearance.

The SUPERGIRL show is half way between SMALLVILLE and THE FLASH, in terms of Kara's development as a super-hero. I assume that the Hoechlin-Superman already had that arc and he's now the World's Greatest Super-Hero. Kara is still trying to figure out the whole super-hero thing and she doesn't need to save the whole Earth every week--only National City.

As her cousin and semi-mentor, Clark respects her air-space and doesn't rush in to save her bacon. Maybe he's involved in his own cases and teaming up with his Justice League super-buddies. But he shouldn't abandon the Earth completely, just so Supergirl can be the greatest by default. For one thing, that doesn't advance Kara's arc. And for another thing, if Superman leaves Earth then he also leaves Lois--and we saw how that earned Brandon Routh the "Deadbeat Dad" tag (even though I think that was unfair shaming).

I'm glad that Superman isn't dead in this franchise. If he had been, the series would have chickened out on confronting an important aspect of the Supergirl story. She always is someone who exists in the shadow of her more famous cousin. And that's not a bad thing. That's a dramatic approach to the character. So it's good to have Superman make the occasional appearance to motivate Supergirl's character. But not to prop her up.

[DochaDocha]

This is the biggest problem with all this. It would be nice to have one version outside the comics that isn't subservient to someone else. Everyone is somehow more noble than he is. This is what we've seen for the last decade. Whether it's JLU, Supergirl, the new movies, Injustice, or what have you, every other version in ever other media is "less than" those around him. Most people don't read comics. So you have an entire generation that has grown up with a Superman who is flawed and that's all they've known. I think the one version that wasn't in the last decade was Smallville and even he dragged his feet in becoming Superman to keep the show on the air. Supergirl seemed like the one chance to get a "good" Superman that hit all the right notes and then he went and said he'd throw the Earth under the bus for his girlfriend.

One of the problems is that Superman is one of the few heroes in which writers think "backwards" and emphasize his limitations as a "selling point." There's almost a strange group think among writers that everyone thinks Superman is too good so the only way to catch a wider audience is to adjust their glasses on the bridge of their noses and say, "Um, actually, Superman's actually pretty bad at..." And then the cycle of flawed Superman keeps coming at us.

Another way of putting it: Superman in other media is written less to appeal to hardcore Superman fans and more to people who don't like the character. IMO, anyway.

EDIT: To be fair on the previous sentence, that's probably true for every character. However, appealing to hardcore Batman fans seems to overlap greatly with appealing to casual fans, but the strategies for appealing to hardcore Supes fans vs. casual fans seems to have a gulf between them. Either that, or Superman's just part of the package being sold, so who cares who Superman turns out as long as the package can be delivered.

[DieHard200904]

Okay, I went back and re-watched the season finale and it does come across as some sort of fan fiction. So, yes, some of the criticism of it is legitimate. This really does seem unnecessary. Either the producers have faith in her to stand on her own or they don't. It really is unnecessary to undermine him to prop her up. The ideal ending would have Superman sacrifice himself to end the Daxam threat by sending them into the Phantom Zone and himself along with them. But before he leaves he tells Kara that the Earth still needs a protector and he knows she is more than qualified. Win/win for both.

Finally saw it and yeah, that was a bad stab at the Superman character after he has been presented. I am going to say that there are some aspects of a character that shouldn't be explored, a character saying what the limits of his motivation to help and act heroic are one of these parts that are just bad ideas to go with a character. A character should not say that. I would rather see Gods and Monsters then watch a Superman state the limits of his morals, and those shouldn't be the limits of his morals in the first place, nor should he be admitting them either.

[Agent Z]

This is the biggest problem with all this. It would be nice to have one version outside the comics that isn't subservient to someone else. Everyone is somehow more noble than he is. This is what we've seen for the last decade. Whether it'sJLU, Supergirl, the new movies, Injustice, or what have you, every other version in ever other media is "less than" those around him. Most people don't read comics. So you have an entire generation that has grown up with a Superman who is flawed and that's all they've known. I think the one version that wasn't in the last decade was Smallville and even he dragged his feet in becoming Superman to keep the show on the air. Supergirl seemed like the one chance to get a "good" Superman that hit all the right notes and then he went and said he'd throw the Earth under the bus for his girlfriend.

Who is he subservient to? Hell, most of the Regime in Injustice are only going along with it because in their eyes Superman can do no wrong

[Adekis]

Who is he subservient to? Hell, most of the Regime in Injustice are only going along with it because in their eyes Superman can do no wrong

In Injustice he's not subservient in a literal sense of taking orders from anybody (though if we take Injustice 2 seriously then the whole "kill everyone and take over the world" thing was Wonder Woman's idea) but the fact that he's been removed from being the Ultimate Hero and become the Ultimate Villain while the Ultimate Hero is Batman means he's still sort of subservient in the realm-of-ideas.

I suppose it's worth noting that the only person capable of really stopping Evil Superman in Injustice 1 is, well, the Real Superman, so there is that at least, but then due to a lack of understanding of the fact that Regime Superman only turned evil because of plot device and inconsistent characterization, Real Superman thinks he might do the same and gives everyone a "kill-Superman" button to press, so I think that in Injustice Superman is inevitably subservient to, well, the idea of an evil Superman, which goes against his core concept so much that it's more or less painful by now. I suppose he's subservient to cynicism and edginess, the same kind of thing that created Moore's Marvelman and Waid's Plutonian, or the mentally unstable Sentry over at Marvel.

[Thor2014]

When the show was in the early conception stage, I think Superman was indeed supposed to be gone, but for some reason that changed. At least that's my understanding of it.

The Lois line was indeed a problem, but I don't think it was character destroying as some have alluded.

Yeah, but I would argue that the line wasn't necessarily out of character. Or at least OOC in terms of how Superman's been often portrayed over the last few decades, going back to STM where although he did choose the world over Lois initially he went 'beserk' and messed with the laws of space and time to save her as well.

[Thor2014]

Yeah - I noticed that.

Also, Why is the Marvel universe that is in TV and Film called the Marvel Cinematic Universe, but the DC one which is only Film is called the DC Extended Universe? Shouldn't that be MEU and DCCU?

I assume DC/WB wanted to differentiate itself a little so they took a slightly different name. The thing is 'Extended' is a more wider term that should logically be extended to television and other media. I would think 'extended' would fit Marvel more since their movies and (much of their) television exists in the same continuity (more or less) while DC is strictly split up into a film continuity and several television ones (Gotham and Berlanti/CW).

[The World]

Looking at the roaring success of IT I think it would do the Superman fanbase as well as the writers some good to realize that lightheartedness and "fun" having little to nothing to do with each other. This is pretty obvious when you look at the complete different trajectory Superman and Batman have gone over the years. It's the quality of the adventure that determines whether something is "fun" or not. Not whether it's light hearted or not.

Or looking at how dominant Goku became in the 90's, while Supes was stuck in a rom-com in Lois and Clark , Goku was fighting all manner of opponents and exploring the universe.