Controversial Superman Opinions

[Jim Kelly]

Among comic book fans--creators included--Jack Kirby enjoys a favoured status, so you can't blame them for wanting to see Kirby creations in their work. The "Worf Effect" could just as easily be applied to Darkseid. Whenever they want to establish a hero's bona fides they have him or her clash with Darkseid and his minions.

Jack Kirby might be the only comic book creator who approaches Stan Lee in name-recognition among the general public. I'm surprised that Disney, Fox and Sony haven't tried to exploit the Kirby brand in their movie marketing. But that leaves an opening for DC to do so. They should promote Kirby as this great contributor to their universe.

If they ever do a full-blown treatment of the New Gods, beyond JUSTICE LEAGUE, that should be clearly branded as Jack Kirby's Fourth World. That would establish these concepts as coming from Jack Kirby--all the way back in 1970, before Star Wars or Infinity Wars.

I'm surprised that Disney doesn't give more attention to the creative talents that their movies are based on--Stan Lee didn't do everything. They should be pumping up Jim Starlin, given several of his concepts will be appearing in their movies.

[Ascended]

I know that my preference is not the one that comic book readers today enjoy. They want comics where the super-hero is always on.

Typically yes, today's market doesn't like it when the civilian identity gets much/any play.

But look at how Superman has sold since "Clark" fell into the background.

What works for the majority doesn't necessarily work for Superman. DC needs to stop trying to force Clark into current market trends and focus on what makes Superman work. 99% of the depth, nuance, and fun of Superman comes from Clark Kent.

Not everything has to be Watchmen or Dark Knight Returns. Not every hero has to ditch their private lives and be on duty 24/7. Not every book is going to find success using the same formula and approach. And for a character like Clark Kent, who so easily lends himself to cultural/social commentary without having to deal with actual real-world events, not using him is only limiting a huge chunk of story potential.

[The World]

Secret IDs and civilian lives are going the way of the dinosaur largely I think because they interfere with the escapism and fantasy element of cape stories. Not saying I necessarily agree with it but I also don't think most people want their stories about awesome people being awesome dragged down by stories where they aren't awesome and aren't SUPER.

Also I think there is an element where people become more invested in stories where the characters get pushed to their mental and physical limits or a left perplexed by problems the story present. People seem more attached to those kinds of stories than ones where the mood is more relaxed or that isn't capable of providing extraordinary situations.

I think part of Batman's utter dominance as a character has to do with how little down sider there is to either of his lives. He's a rich, handsome, well connected and desirable business man in one life and a kickass Ninja detective in the other. There's no one that can really tell him what to do and he has legions of people that listen to everything he says. He's pure id fueled fantasy.

[ekrolo2]

DCEU Clois is best Clois because Lois immediately knows Clark and Superman are one and the same. All the other versions bother me a lot because they usually come off as being very invested in Superman with nary a **** given for Clark pre-reveal.

[Ascended]

Secret IDs and civilian lives are going the way of the dinosaur largely I think because they interfere with the escapism and fantasy element of cape stories. Not saying I necessarily agree with it but I also don't think most people want their stories about awesome people being awesome dragged down by stories where they aren't awesome and aren't SUPER.

I think that's exactly it. Everyone wants to be famous and rich and a big Youtube star, everyone wants to be on the cutting edge, and no one has an attention span. Everyone thinks they are, and wants to be, special.....so why would they want to read about someone who actually is special pretending not to be? Its counter-intuitive to Millennials and the cultural trends they embody.

So scenes of Clark (or other heroes) sitting around having a cup of coffee arent going to impress.

But there are other ways to handle secret identities. With Clark in particular, it's easy enough to treat his secret identity as a spy going undercover (which is cool). And given how socially aware people are now I think it's been a huge missed opportunity on DC's part to not bring the social crusader back to Superman via Clark's reporting.

It can be done in a way that'll appeal to current trends and social norms. It just takes a little imagination and the desire to make it happen. DC seems to think the only viable formula is the Batman formula, and the sooner they realize there are other, better ways out there, the better for everyone (especially Clark).

[TheCape]

@Ascended
Funny enougth, i think that Spider-Man is going througth a similar problem than Superman when it comes to that.

[Ascended]

Never been a Parker fan, but from what I know you're likely correct. Isn't he a big tech genius CEO now? That sounds an awful lot like Marvel trying to make Parker interesting so he doesn't completely disappear behind Spider-Man.

I think the Big 2 need a serious, major influx of new talent. The problem is that the indies have become much friendlier places to work, with a lot more flexibility and better creator-rights which is huge when it comes to adaptations. Why give your best ideas to DC or Marvel when you'll never see any benefit from it (and those ideas will likely be dropped by the next writer) when you can publish your stuff through Image or Dark Horse and get treated right, as well as collect a big fat paycheck if your stuff gets turned into a movie (like Invincible and Hellboy are)?

[superduperman]

Secret IDs and civilian lives are going the way of the dinosaur largely I think because they interfere with the escapism and fantasy element of cape stories. Not saying I necessarily agree with it but I also don't think most people want their stories about awesome people being awesome dragged down by stories where they aren't awesome and aren't SUPER.

Also I think there is an element where people become more invested in stories where the characters get pushed to their mental and physical limits or a left perplexed by problems the story present. People seem more attached to those kinds of stories than ones where the mood is more relaxed or that isn't capable of providing extraordinary situations.

I think part of Batman's utter dominance as a character has to do with how little down sider there is to either of his lives. He's a rich, handsome, well connected and desirable business man in one life and a kickass Ninja detective in the other. There's no one that can really tell him what to do and he has legions of people that listen to everything he says. He's pure id fueled fantasy.

I think one of the more interesting ways around this is to have very few people know both Clark and Superman. So that they don't necessarily associate one with the other. So if Jimmy Olsen is Superman's Pal, he doesn't hang out with Clark much. Or really at all. No threat of him recognizing him. Ditto Clark and Lois. You've either met Superman or you've met Clark. It's highly unlikely you've met both. So when you have something like the marriage, Lois puts two and two together quickly after spending more time with Clark.

[Agent Z]

Edited post. Never mind.

[CharlesInCharge]

To follow up on my last post, it's not that I think Injustice is a bad game. In fact, it's one of the most fun games I've ever played. However, my main gripe with it is down to the fact that I think it came at completely the wrong time for Superman. In 2011-2015, there was enough dark Superman stuff like the New 52 and Man of Steel. Him being depicted as the ultimate villain was the last thing he was in need of. If it had come out in another 10-15 years, after the classic imagery of the character was well restored, it'd have been better off.

[Adekis]

I think backstories are overrated. We get attached to our favorite versions of Superman's backstory, but honestly we really don't need all that. We don't need the endless origin stories we get. All we really need is "journalist Clark Kent is secretly an alien Superman named Kal-El who has tremendous physical strength and can look through solid objects, shoot lasers out of his eyes and fly; he lives on Earth 'cause his homeworld blew up when he was a baby and his birth-dad shot him here in a rocket. Now he fights a never-ending battle for truth and justice."

It's most prevalent for Superman, but it really applies to a whole lot of his supporting cast. Jimmy will make an offhand comment about his parents that totally trashes what he said last year, but he got along just fine when his parents never came up at all. Lois has a sister she loves who should stay, and an Army Dad she stole from Betty Ross, but she got along fine without him back when her backstory was just "I'm Lois Lane and I don't give a damn!" Luthor in particular... I don't think it makes a bit of difference in the slightest whether Luthor grew up in Smallville, Metropolis or eastern Europe.

I suppose in general I just don't think it's worth referencing the characters' backstories a ton, and certainly not worth retelling them basically ever at this point. We've gotten enough versions of Superman's origin.

I suppose that probably qualifies as "controversial".

[superduperman]

I've said before I think the best thing they could do with Rebirth (and this ship has kind of already sailed) is just don't give him an origin and let the reader make up their own. If we are done with reboots for the foreseeable future, better to let sleeping dogs lie and move forward. They've already got plenty of material to work with going forward. At this point, Rebirth's continuity is a mess anyway with the future of things like the JSA and Conner sort of in limbo right now. And they're having a hard enough time trying to fit both Wally and Donna into the new timeline after bringing them back. Even the issue where they sort of went over his history after his encounter with Mxy just seemed like "eh, let's just get this over with". They've kind of thrown out the suspension of disbelief rule as is with the constant reboots, I think the best thing they can do right now is just move on. Want to believe he came flying out of the rocket on day one? You can do that! Want to believe he didn't have powers until high school? You can do that too! Want to believe he was flying around with the Legion? It's all an open book! Everybody wins!

Half his books for the last decade have been about figuring out what "counts" and what doesn't. Actual adventures of Superman should be carved in stone but things like what age he got his powers or his childhood in general should be a blank slate for the reader to write on. It gives them more to be invested in and ends some of the squabbling. Rebirth seemed like a good opportunity to do something like that since everything is still settling. Yesterday I was thinking about the difference between Johns SO and Earth One's origins. Both came out within a year of each other but were so radically different. One was a six part miniseries that incorporated every element of Superman lore you could think of for the last 70 years. The other was two pages. They find him, put him in the back of the truck, he twists a tire iron into a pretzel, they show him a piece of the ship at about 7 or 8. The end. More or less. The story moves forward (regardless of whether you like the story or not). Guess which one I prefer? I think All Star is a bit overrated but I think Morrison was onto something side stepping that entire minefield.

[Ascended]

I've said before I think the best thing they could do with Rebirth (and this ship has kind of already sailed) is just don't give him an origin and let the reader make up their own..

They tried that in the 00's. It did not go well.

I dont think we need to be totally obsessed with the backstory but I do think we need one firmly established. Just to keep more cracks from growing.

I think backstories are overrated.

Comics have definitely been too focused on them in recent years. Sometimes I think its a sign that the people in charge have no idea where to go in the future, or that the people in charge wont allow the IP's to evolve beyond what is recognizable to the masses. Sometimes I just think writers enjoy putting their own spin on things and take too many liberties.

In any case, one of the best things about the Rebirth-Reborn era was that we never really touched on Superman's origins at all. He and the family were from a dead universe. The Superman of this world was dead. That's as far as it went and the titles were free to just tell their stories.

[Sacred Knight]

I would argue that's not at all accurate for Action though. It wasn't free to tell its own stories. Superman being a goofy space and time traveler was front and center pretty much constantly and was a huge eyesore on everything the book was doing at the time. Tomasi and Gleason got to ignore it for the most part though in Superman after the Eradicator arc.

[Ascended]

I would argue that's not at all accurate for Action though. It wasn't free to tell its own stories. Superman being a goofy space and time traveler was front and center pretty much constantly and was a huge eyesore on everything the book was doing at the time. Tomasi and Gleason got to ignore it for the most part though in Superman after the Eradicator arc.

Oh.

Well, as you may know, I dont read Action.....

I stand corrected.