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  1. #2026
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    I'm sure I must have said this before at some point, but one of my spiciest hot takes is that the No-Killing rule is dumb and has never worked without at least some ugly compromises that make Clark look like a hypocrite. It's better if he just doesn't have one, in favor of killing being just something he usually doesn't have to do and hates doing.

    Also after watching the first episode of the Witcher, I can say with confidence that I want Superman to say the F word. Maybe just once, for extreme emphasis.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  2. #2027
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I'm sure I must have said this before at some point, but one of my spiciest hot takes is that the No-Killing rule is dumb and has never worked without at least some ugly compromises that make Clark look like a hypocrite. It's better if he just doesn't have one, in favor of killing being just something he usually doesn't have to do and hates doing.

    Also after watching the first episode of the Witcher, I can say with confidence that I want Superman to say the F word. Maybe just once, for extreme emphasis.
    The closest he's come is in Justice League Unlimited's final episode:


  3. #2028
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I'm sure I must have said this before at some point, but one of my spiciest hot takes is that the No-Killing rule is dumb and has never worked without at least some ugly compromises that make Clark look like a hypocrite. It's better if he just doesn't have one, in favor of killing being just something he usually doesn't have to do and hates doing.

    Also after watching the first episode of the Witcher, I can say with confidence that I want Superman to say the F word. Maybe just once, for extreme emphasis.
    Also, i would like it if they define clarks leanings when he is saving people. Is he a utilitarian or kantian or other.. Etc? Every version should first define that then stick to it or have an arc to show the limitations of his leanings.

  4. #2029
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I'm sure I must have said this before at some point, but one of my spiciest hot takes is that the No-Killing rule is dumb and has never worked without at least some ugly compromises that make Clark look like a hypocrite. It's better if he just doesn't have one, in favor of killing being just something he usually doesn't have to do and hates doing.

    Also after watching the first episode of the Witcher, I can say with confidence that I want Superman to say the F word. Maybe just once, for extreme emphasis.
    I feel that as a guy who grew up on a farm he had to know that sometimes to save the entire herd you have to kill a wolf. Now as Superman he'll do everything in his power to avoid that, but if theres no other option then he'll kill. He wont like it, but he'll do it. Kingdom Come as an example works in this idea because Joker was caught and is easily controlled (albeit usually by incompetent Arkham personel)

  5. #2030
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    I have no problem with superman sticking to his rule.but, Then he will have to face the consequences like the elric brothers. He would have to face loses connected to it.

  6. #2031
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    I feel that as a guy who grew up on a farm he had to know that sometimes to save the entire herd you have to kill a wolf. Now as Superman he'll do everything in his power to avoid that, but if theres no other option then he'll kill. He wont like it, but he'll do it. Kingdom Come as an example works in this idea because Joker was caught and is easily controlled (albeit usually by incompetent Arkham personel)
    You know, I was always on Magog's side in that situation. It's not that Joker wasn't contained, it's that he has never and will never stay contained. He always breaks out, he always kills again. I'm not saying Superman should kill the Joker. I'm saying Superman shouldn't get mad and storm off for like twenty whole years if a jury acquits the guy who kills the Joker.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  7. #2032
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    I think it was Oda who when asked why Luffy doesn't kill his enemies he responded with something like "Because he shatters their dreams instead" or something like that. Something like that could work for Superman imo. Frankly while I'm not married to the idea of Superman having a no kill rule but I really have no desire to see him kill anyone. I think the attitude he had in the golden age was appropriate where he wasn't really concerning himself with the well being of the crooks and villains. Frankly I don't think I've ever seen Luffy's lack of a body count brought up although I've begun to fall off on reading One Piece.
    Rules are for lesser men, Charlie - Grand Pa Joe ~ Willy Wonka & Chocolate Factory

  8. #2033
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    You know, I was always on Magog's side in that situation. It's not that Joker wasn't contained, it's that he has never and will never stay contained. He always breaks out, he always kills again. I'm not saying Superman should kill the Joker. I'm saying Superman shouldn't get mad and storm off for like twenty whole years if a jury acquits the guy who kills the Joker.
    Kingdom Come is a fantastic story, but it is an awful Superman story. It all works within the context of that particular narrative I suppose, but the idea that Clark would turn his back on people because they support lethal force is about the least Superman thing he could ever do. Turn his back on people who need him, let them die and suffer for two decades while he hides and plays farmer, just because they supported something he doesnt? That's not Superman. It works for KC, because that story is basically about how the old generation f*cked everything up and left the new generation to fend for itself without any guidance, but it's far from a template I'd apply to anything that is meant to resemble the "real" Superman.

    Of course, I disagree with Clark quite a bit on lethal force. I support it. I believe in redemption and second chances, but there's some people out there who just deserve a bullet and an unmarked grave.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  9. #2034
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    I think it was Oda who when asked why Luffy doesn't kill his enemies he responded with something like "Because he shatters their dreams instead" or something like that. Something like that could work for Superman imo. Frankly while I'm not married to the idea of Superman having a no kill rule but I really have no desire to see him kill anyone. I think the attitude he had in the golden age was appropriate where he wasn't really concerning himself with the well being of the crooks and villains. Frankly I don't think I've ever seen Luffy's lack of a body count brought up although I've begun to fall off on reading One Piece.
    Oda killing of characters was rare before time skip. Though now, he has been at it. Luffy might not kill villains. But, he absolutely causes chaos and anrchy that leads to huge amounts of deaths. But, it does lead to everything corrupt getting reformed. While, blackbeard does the same, but his chaos actually makes things worse. If you think about it superman writers can get a lot of inspiration from a story like one piece, where conflict is split right in the middle. luffy is stuck in the middle even with his biases as a pirate and coby being the marine on the other side. Pirates aren't the good guys nor are the marines.

  10. #2035
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    I think it was Oda who when asked why Luffy doesn't kill his enemies he responded with something like "Because he shatters their dreams instead" or something like that. Something like that could work for Superman imo. Frankly while I'm not married to the idea of Superman having a no kill rule but I really have no desire to see him kill anyone. I think the attitude he had in the golden age was appropriate where he wasn't really concerning himself with the well being of the crooks and villains. Frankly I don't think I've ever seen Luffy's lack of a body count brought up although I've begun to fall off on reading One Piece.
    "I won't kill you. I'll just psychologically destroy you and make you wish you were dead."

  11. #2036
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    "I won't kill you. I'll just psychologically destroy you and make you wish you were dead."
    That isn't something luffy does. He might not be able to spell psychologically. He just kicks the ass of the guys that's in his way, while he runs around screaming. And believe me, there is a lot of running around. It's not even his motive to destroy their dreams or whatever. His motive for fights most likely is his comrades, food and loyalty to the people that give him food. Luffy will take on anyone including the entire world for his comrades.

    Superman is surprisingly different. By luffy's definition, superman will give even his share of meat to everyone as he is a hero. While luffy wouldn't. Luffy wants all the meat.Luffy loves heroes. But, he doesn't want to be one.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 01-08-2020 at 10:07 PM.

  12. #2037
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Using meta knowledge doesn’t work to either attack or defend the no kill rule. Sure you can say “we all know the super villains will escape from prison so why doesn’t Clark kill them?” but I could just as easily point out that none of the big super villains will ever stay dead so killing them is no better a solution than imprisoning them. If Batman killed the Joker, the Joker would still be back in about a year max.

  13. #2038
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Using meta knowledge doesn’t work to either attack or defend the no kill rule. Sure you can say “we all know the super villains will escape from prison so why doesn’t Clark kill them?” but I could just as easily point out that none of the big super villains will ever stay dead so killing them is no better a solution than imprisoning them. If Batman killed the Joker, the Joker would still be back in about a year max.
    They are basically in purgatory lol.
    Death is basically a vacation in comics at this point. It would actually be in character for the Joker, who tends to break the fourth wall on occasion, to consider it a nice break. Nothing solve anything long term because they need to keep selling these things indefinitely. You can make a strawman argument that the no kill rule is stupid, but then the hero who kills looks kind of like an ******* when the villain still comes back and increases their body count.

  14. #2039
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    They are basically in purgatory lol.
    Death is basically a vacation in comics at this point. It would actually be in character for the Joker, who tends to break the fourth wall on occasion, to consider it a nice break. Nothing solve anything long term because they need to keep selling these things indefinitely. You can make a strawman argument that the no kill rule is stupid, but then the hero who kills looks kind of like an ******* when the villain still comes back and increases their body count.
    How is that their fault? At least they were trying other methods besides the one that has repeatedly been shown to not work. Most villain deaths in comics aren't done by the heroes anyway so there's less history of error compared to locking them up in cardboard prisons.

    And as for straw man arguments, that's what we get anyways except they're used for the no killing rule not against it. Call me when the writers do a story criticizing the no kill rule in the mold of Action Comics 775.

  15. #2040
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    How is that their fault? At least they were trying other methods besides the one that has repeatedly been shown to not work. Most villain deaths in comics aren't done by the heroes anyway so there's less history of error compared to locking them up in cardboard prisons.

    And as for straw man arguments, that's what we get anyways except they're used for the no killing rule not against it. Call me when the writers do a story criticizing the no kill rule in the mold of Action Comics 775.
    And if it was used as much as the jail thing, and villains were inevitably brought back repeatedly, we'd run into cardboard afterlife as much as cardboard prison. And we know the real world reason these villains keep getting brought back (writers WANT to use them and the almighty $$$) so maybe we shouldn't give the heroes a hard time no matter what their preferred solution is because nothing they do will change anything in the long run.

    Plus instead of putting the blame all on them, put some of the blame on the crappy legal systems. Batman hands the villains over to the police, but the courts never give them the death penalty. After a point the blame isn't just his. Hell, Maggie Sawyer shot the Joker full of bullets in Gotham Central and the bastard still survived. Status quo is God is working against all of them.

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