Controversial Superman Opinions

[Nelliebly]

Here's another: Newspapers are darn near dead and the only reason DC won't accept that and have Clark move on from the antiquated concept of being a reporter for the Daily Planet is because so many classic members of his supporting cast are also affiliated with the Daily Planet too (Lois, Perry, Jimmy, etc), and that would pretty much cut him off from most of them completely if there was no Daily Planet.

Actually I think the current election cycle in the US has validated that journalism remains not only a relevant modern profession for Clark and Lois but a vital one with lots of interesting issues. There is a legitimate problem right now regarding the way corporations are controlling news and the real world impact that is having on the way genuine injustices are being reported. More than ever, we need a focus on Lois and Clark at the Daily Planet. Lois is a real life heroine struggling to fight injustice in a world where media is increasingly biased because it's owned by corrupt corporations. Journalism is THE hot button issue right now. The franchise should be leaning IN to the journalism aspect....not getting rid of it. It's arguably the most relevant issue in the myth right now.

[Ascended]

[QUOTE=MeloDet;2454274]

Here's another: Newspapers are darn near dead and the only reason DC won't accept that and have Clark move on from the antiquated concept of being a reporter for the Daily Planet is because so many classic members of his supporting cast are also affiliated with the Daily Planet too (Lois, Perry, Jimmy, etc), and that would pretty much cut him off from most of them completely if there was no Daily Planet.

That's an easy fix; you just update the Planet. Hell you could even play into the decline of print and media buy-outs with the story.

Say the Planet is failing, and while it's still the world's leading paper, that doesnt mean anything. So right before the bank swoops down to close it, Perry borrows money from Lex (just for the sake of drama later on) buys the Planet, and takes it full-on guerrilla journalism; no big giant office, no printing press in the basement, just Perry and his small army of journalists fighting against corporate media and streaming the truth live to every smartphone, tablet, and computer around the world.

That might not be the best idea, but if a good writer put more than five minutes of thought into the Planet they could come up with some way to update the concept and keep it viable.

[Ascended]

The only reason I even mention the marriage being done away with is that I think an arc of some sort to redevelop the relationship should be done every 25 years or so in order for the next generation of reader to develop that investment.

That's a pretty valid concern to have. I dont really have an answer for it beyond just tweaking and adjusting expectations. We dont have to see Clark and Lois go through the whole process of dating to be emotionally invested in their relationship, we just have to see them together enough to form that connection. Most kids dont see their parents go through the dating process but are still emotionally invested in their relationship. That's a cheap example I know, but its all I got. :P

[Sacred Knight]

All I know is a miss the classic dynamic of Superman saving "Ms. Lane" and him still being just about as mysterious to her as the next guy he saves. I feel this way whenever I see scenes of him saving her like in Superman #12. I dunno...her being his wife in those situations just doesn't have the same appeal anymore. Now, I think she should always know who he is, I don't think it makes much sense to put that cat back in the bag anymore, but she can know the secret identity but still feel the man as a whole is a riddle. In fact knowing of his dual identity but not being romantically close would make him even more an enigma to her. Its just more fun to me these days.

[Uncanny Mutie]

Actually I think the current election cycle in the US has validated that journalism remains not only a relevant modern profession for Clark and Lois but a vital one with lots of interesting issues. There is a legitimate problem right now regarding the way corporations are controlling news and the real world impact that is having on the way genuine injustices are being reported. More than ever, we need a focus on Lois and Clark at the Daily Planet. Lois is a real life heroine struggling to fight injustice in a world where media is increasingly biased because it's owned by corrupt corporations. Journalism is THE hot button issue right now. The franchise should be leaning IN to the journalism aspect....not getting rid of it. It's arguably the most relevant issue in the myth right now.

I didn't say that journalism itself was irrelevant to the modern world. Only that NEWSPAPERS are pretty much dead. For God's sake, just turn the Planet into a digital operation or something. The whole newspaper thing is painfully outdated, especially for a character who struggles in popularity with many younger readers.

[MeloDet]

That's a pretty valid concern to have. I dont really have an answer for it beyond just tweaking and adjusting expectations. We dont have to see Clark and Lois go through the whole process of dating to be emotionally invested in their relationship, we just have to see them together enough to form that connection. Most kids dont see their parents go through the dating process but are still emotionally invested in their relationship. That's a cheap example I know, but its all I got. :P

Haha fair enough. It's probably different for everybody. I don't really look at Superman like a father figure personally, so it doesn't quite work for me (that much I can say for sure; I've read enough stories with them together that I'd be invested by now if it was going to happen). And mother/father level investment probably isn't enough if they want us to believe he's going to remain celibate for 1000 years in asgard, go crazy if she dies, or whatever. To pull that off the relationship needs some degree of gravitas. I certainly don't want to go through the whole dating process over and over again either. Like I said you could probably pull it off with a 12 or so issue series. I wouldn't suggest they reboot just for the romance either of course, but if they're going to reboot anyways I think it'd be a wasted opportunity not to use that moment to redefine things (romance, the dp, the secret id, etc.)for a new generation. Maybe flashbacks really are the best way to go (if they aren't going to reboot); every so often they could have a series that focuses on their romantic development/the state of the daily planet/etc. I'd certainly rather read that than another freaking origin story :P

Mix that in with some solid long(ish) form out of continuity stories where you can explore Superman as a bachelor, dating Diana, married to Lana, etc. and you'd probably be able to maintain the married status quo a lot longer.

[Kuwagaton]

I have one: Everybody criticizes John Byrne for lowering Superman's power levels, but Superman NEEDED to have his ridiculous power levels scaled down some. The problem is that DC waited too late to do it, so that by the time they did do it, other characters across the medium were getting their power levels boosted to ridiculous levels and having absurd new abilities added to their repertoire, or new characters were being created with over the top power levels, so as a result, Superman suddenly looked a lot less super than a lot of his contemporaries when that was never the intention. For example, all of a sudden, Hulk got a healing factor that seemed even faster than Wolverine's, could breath underwater, could survive being thrown into space or a nuclear holocaust, and had unlimited strength. And what about Omega level mutants, like that kid X-Man, who could wipe out the entire Eastern seaboard with just one thought. No wonder Superman didn't seem so super by the time the 80's and 90's rolled around; it wasn't Byrne's fault.

Byrne certainly made the nerf seem dramatic, especially with having him lose every other fight. But 1986 largely going into the beginning of the next decade the Hulk was grey and not nearly as strong, Wolverine was capable of having his healing factor shorted, and Thor had brittle bones. Byrne's Superman flew in space and took a nuke to the face. By the time things started ramping up, I think the common consensus started coming around to Superman being able to whip most of the superheroes and villains he would have beaten pre-crisis, if Byrne created much doubt.

[Ascended]

Haha fair enough. It's probably different for everybody. I don't really look at Superman like a father figure personally, so it doesn't quite work for me (that much I can say for sure; I've read enough stories with them together that I'd be invested by now if it was going to happen). And mother/father level investment probably isn't enough if they want us to believe he's going to remain celibate for 1000 years in asgard, go crazy if she dies, or whatever. To pull that off the relationship needs some degree of gravitas. I certainly don't want to go through the whole dating process over and over again either. Like I said you could probably pull it off with a 12 or so issue series. I wouldn't suggest they reboot just for the romance either of course, but if they're going to reboot anyways I think it'd be a wasted opportunity not to use that moment to redefine things (romance, the dp, the secret id, etc.)for a new generation. Maybe flashbacks really are the best way to go (if they aren't going to reboot); every so often they could have a series that focuses on their romantic development/the state of the daily planet/etc. I'd certainly rather read that than another freaking origin story :P

Mix that in with some solid long(ish) form out of continuity stories where you can explore Superman as a bachelor, dating Diana, married to Lana, etc. and you'd probably be able to maintain the married status quo a lot longer.

Oh, if you're going to reboot, then absolutely, take the chance to do it again and do it differently. I applauded the Diana relationship for that reason. I never expected it to last, but it was a nice diversion before the inevitable return to Clark and Lois and it pulled the trigger on a sexual tension that had been toyed with for decades upon decades across two different mainstream continuities and countless Elseworlds.

The problem with a long-running continuity is that you have to evolve the narrative or things get stale. That creates a problem for Superman that doesnt have a clear answer, but I do think if long-term continuity is your goal, then Elseworlds and flashback stories are the best solution you're going to get.

[Nelliebly]

New poster here so excuse me if I'm repeating things already said. To be quite honest, I'm a bit baffled by some of the comments here regarding Lois and the marriage.

Marriage does not mean the end of romance or adventure. That's a myth rooted in patriarchy and we need to please stop repeating it. Marriage is only "harder" to write because writers are lazy and it's easier to fall back on long standing cliches then actually tread new ground by writing a relationship with all the drama and love and complexity that that entails. The first step here comes back to writers. DC needs younger writers (30's) vs. guys who are removed from their kids being young. They also need female writers as married women have a totally distinct view on these kinds of things and their voice is valuable.

Not only do I think Clark Kent makes sense as a husband and father but I think the franchise is more progressive when it leans into this reality that Superman truly is the kind of guy who loves one woman and wants to be with her. I don't think Superman, as a franchise, in 2016, is palatable or progressive trying to present Superman as this "player" out there trying to play the field because that's just not who he is. The last 40 years of media has presented him as a guy who genuinely wants to be monogamous and who, generally, as a grown man, is madly in love with Lois. I think that there are very few male superheroes that truly do have a consistent romantic partner as opposed to a revolving door. The idea of Superman as this eternal bachelor strikes me as, frankly, very outdated and presents a patriarchal view of marriage and commitment that doesn't feel appropriate in 2016. There was a time, a few decades ago, when marriage and "settling down" was considered something negative for a man which is partly why we had so many years of Superman wanting to be with Lois but not marrying her out of some kind of misguided "duty." But you need to understand that this was also an era where women themselves weren't given the same equality nor did people truly believe back then that women could be both married AND have careers either. Luckily, we don't put those same constraints on women anymore and a woman like Lois no longer has to choose between her own independence and a family. And neither does the man. If anything, I think it's considered more "manly" and modern now to be a good husband and father. President Obama was beloved, in part, because he was a faithful and loving husband and father. A lot of our sexy male celebs are now specifically making headlines ::because::they are super into their spouse and kids. I think we've evolved to a point where we no longer think that men are "cooler" if they are playing the field and we are slowly breaking down this sexist stereotype that men stop their "adventure" when they get married because guys...that's what that ALWAYS was. It was always a product of sexism and it's outdated now. Not only can Superman be married and have a son but it's a completely natural progression of his character arc that suits our modern concept of masculinity. Mind you, marriage and kids is NOT the endgame for EVERY character. But it is in-character for Clark Kent. And it makes him unique in a narrative landscape where very few men are this emotionally mature.

I also don't think marriage means the end of romance focused stories. That's another myth. The popularity of Outlander (a fantasy book series about a MARRIED couple over several decades) proved there is a market specifically for this. Outlander is action oriented and violent and nuts. It's also an intense love story between a married couple with a child. The 9th book in the series will be released soon and the 3rd season of the TV show returns in the Spring. Friday Night Lights is another example of a show about a married couple that is notoriously acclaimed ::because:: it's about a marriage. But Outlander is the best example as it's a fantasy show with lots of crazy action and plot that also happens to be about a married couple who are crazy for each other but still dealing with tons of conflict. If anything, DC should be leaning IN to the marriage and the kid as there is a legitimate craving right now in entertainment for stories that are willing to tackle the passion and complexity that can be within a marriage. Superman is one of DC's only properties that can do this.

I think it's also worth noting that the Lois Lane YA novels are a perfect example of a property that ::is:: telling the courtship between Lois and Clark in an entirely new way for a whole new generation. The books are extremely successful. The 3rd book comes out in the Spring. That's a whole new generation of young readers who are seeing ::their:: version of the falling in love story.

I definitely don't think every hero needs to be married or be a father. But this feels like Clark Kent to me. He feels right to me as the kind of man who feels passionate about his wife and son. Lois feels right to me as the kind of woman fighting at her job but not forced to choose between the Job of people she loves. And I would encourage anyone who doesn't think that a married couple can still compete and love and fight and adore to view Outlander as a guide of what could be if DC had the courage to get some more diverse writers.

Homestly, I guess my controversial opinion is that I think the concept of an eternally single Superman who is never willing to truly be with the woman he loves is an extremely dated concept not in touch with the way our view of masculinity as evolved in the last few decades for the better.

[MeloDet]

Oh, if you're going to reboot, then absolutely, take the chance to do it again and do it differently. I applauded the Diana relationship for that reason. I never expected it to last, but it was a nice diversion before the inevitable return to Clark and Lois and it pulled the trigger on a sexual tension that had been toyed with for decades upon decades across two different mainstream continuities and countless Elseworlds.

The problem with a long-running continuity is that you have to evolve the narrative or things get stale. That creates a problem for Superman that doesnt have a clear answer, but I do think if long-term continuity is your goal, then Elseworlds and flashback stories are the best solution you're going to get.

Yeah what I mean by long(ish) is no more than a couple of arcs. I just find that the normal 6 or so issues isn't enough imo.

[Nelliebly]

All I know is a miss the classic dynamic of Superman saving "Ms. Lane" and him still being just about as mysterious to her as the next guy he saves. I feel this way whenever I see scenes of him saving her like in Superman #12. I dunno...her being his wife in those situations just doesn't have the same appeal anymore. Now, I think she should always know who he is, I don't think it makes much sense to put that cat back in the bag anymore, but she can know the secret identity but still feel the man as a whole is a riddle. In fact knowing of his dual identity but not being romantically close would make him even more an enigma to her. Its just more fun to me these days.

But...this steals her agency and robs HER of the closeness and love that she feels for him. I think that's part of what bugs me about this convo. Lois loves Clark. She loves him. That love she has for him in both personas belongs to her and to her history. It's not more "fun" to take that from her and deny her that love. It doesn't make her more of a badass by denying it. I have the opposite reaction btw. I think it's MORE interesting when they interact together now as Superman and Lois in public because they have to hide the fact that they are married. THAT is fresh and cool and complex and I wish writers would do more with it.

[Jim Kelly]

DC should collect the whole series of Mr. & Mrs. Superman stories. However, Kurt Schaffenberger's greatest DC work was on SUPERMAN'S GIRL FRIEND, LOIS LANE--so I'd like to see DC reprint all of that--that's the top priority for Schaffenberger. If DC could do both at the same time, then all the better.

As others have said, they've got a Multiverse, use it. There's no reason for fans to be divided--we should have several versions of Superman in different continuities.

[Nelliebly]

Yeah what I mean by long(ish) is no more than a couple of arcs. I just find that the normal 6 or so issues isn't enough imo.

I know it's not the same thing but I guess I already feel like this has been done for us in media. Smallville literally had a 7 year push and pull between Lois and Clark where they fought and clashed and ultimately realized that they couldn't live without each other. That is media, yes...but it was fresh and intense and as flawed as that show was...arguably one of the best things they ever did. I think that's why a LOT of fans were thrilled when it was revealed on Supergirl that Tyler Hoechlin's Clark and his Lois were really serious. Because a lot of people just really want them together now after dealing with years on Smallville where they weren't.

Mind you...I love flashbacks and literally never oppose them and I would be beyond thrilled if the marriage got more legit attention. I'm just saying that I do think this issue you speak of has already been addressed for some people through media.

That said, if you want a story about a younger Lois as Clark falling in love...can I please rec the Lois Lane YA novels? Because they are WONDERFUL and delightful in every way!

[Kuwagaton]

Homestly, I guess my controversial opinion is that I think the concept of an eternally single Superman who is never willing to truly be with the woman he loves is an extremely dated concept not in touch with the way our view of masculinity as evolved in the last few decades for the better.

I'm quoting this small part for the gist, but all very well said. And welcome!

I'll never forget that bizarre attempt to play into this concept, the "Superman scores" t-shirt.

[Nelliebly]

DC should collect the whole series of Mr. & Mrs. Superman stories. However, Kurt Schaffenberger's greatest DC work was on SUPERMAN'S GIRL FRIEND, LOIS LANE--so I'd like to see DC reprint all of that--that's the top priority for Schaffenberger. If DC could do both at the same time, then all the better.

As others have said, they've got a Multiverse, use it. There's no reason for fans to be divided--we should have several versions of Superman in different continuities.

We already do though. We had American Alien this year. We had Earth One in several volumes. We even have two different Supermen in media now with both Henry Cavill and Tyler Hoechlin. We also have the Clark Kent in the Lois YA novels who is a true delight and a PERFECT young hero for a younger generation meeting him for the first time.

I'm not negating that it's great to get more...but there actually has been several distinct imaginings of this character very recently.