Controversial Superman Opinions

[Nelliebly]

I'm quoting this small part for the gist, but all very well said.

I'll never forget that bizarre attempt to play into this concept, the "Superman scores" t-shirt.

Thank you. I don't want to cause any drama or hurt feelings but I do think it's weird that people seem consumed with trying to shove Lois out stage left or think of ways that Superman can hook up with other women.

I'll never forget someone asking Amy Poehler in a Reddit who her favorite superhero was and she said it was Superman ::because:: he was so committed to Lois Lane. THAT was what appealed to Poehler founder of SmartGirls and such a great successful female talent. People talk a lot about needing Superman to be a "bachelor" to be relatable but, you know, the other piece to this is that there is potentially a more diverse audience of female readers (who tend to dominate Superman's media properties FYI) who, frankly, are legitimately put off by this idea that Superman needs to hook up with all these other women to prove his manhood or something. Superman is appealing to me, in part, because he is DIFFERENT from every other comic book guy with revolving doors of love interests.

[MeloDet]

I know it's not the same thing but I guess I already feel like this has been done for us in media. Smallville literally had a 7 year push and pull between Lois and Clark where they fought and clashed and ultimately realized that they couldn't live without each other. That is media, yes...but it was fresh and intense and as flawed as that show was...arguably one of the best things they ever did. I think that's why a LOT of fans were thrilled when it was revealed on Supergirl that Tyler Hoechlin's Clark and his Lois were really serious. Because a lot of people just really want them together now after dealing with years on Smallville where they weren't.

Mind you...I love flashbacks and literally never oppose them and I would be beyond thrilled if the marriage got more legit attention. I'm just saying that I do think this issue you speak of has already been addressed for some people through media.

That said, if you want a story about a younger Lois as Clark falling in love...can I please rec the Lois Lane YA novels? Because they are WONDERFUL and delightful in every way!

Smallville is definitely a fair point, I just didn't like it all that much tbh. Obviously that's on me and in a sense you're right that they did give us Clois development recently, but I can only write from my own perspective when it comes to this and Smallville just didn't manage to win me over to the Clois side.

As for the Lois Lane YA novels... I might give them an attempt at some point if I get truly desperate, but as someone who isn't the biggest fan of Lois on her own and who generally doesn't enjoy YA novels that's sort of a tough sell.

[Jim Kelly]

We already do though. We had American Alien this year. We had Earth One in several volumes. We even have two different Supermen in media now with both Henry Cavill and Tyler Hoechlin. We also have the Clark Kent in the Lois YA novels who is a true delight and a PERFECT young hero for a younger generation meeting him for the first time.

I'm not negating that it's great to get more...but there actually has been several distinct imaginings of this character very recently.

That's true, but what I mean is DC doesn't seem to acknowledge the reality and puts out these Rebirth comics as if this is the only Superman that matters. Really it shouldn't matter to readers if there's one Superman who is married with a kid and another Superman who isn't married and has no interest in settling down--both can exist on different worlds. DC shouldn't have to moosh them together on one Earth and give readers this false quandary.

And if they nodded to the other Earths that have existed--original Earth-Two, original Earth-One, original Earth-Prime, pre-Flashpoint New Earth, et al--and acknowledged that they continue to exist--that would set the writers free to pick and choose what they want for Earth-Rebirth and create entirely new stuff. Readers like me wouldn't be so put out--if we could know that our old Earths are out there somewhere, still trucking.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Well that's not surprising, considering that was the 40s, cover with things like "slap a jap" weren't uncommon. The media more or less has outgrown that (or that what i like to think at least).

I knew going into those old stories that there was going to be racist WWII propaganda, but that story stuck out to me because it had Clark and Lois basically accepting that the natives were inferior.

There were racist representations in those old Superman comics communicating racism to the readers, but until this particular story I didn't see any of the lead characters explicitly say things that were maliciously racist. At least none that I remember.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Hank Henshaw works better as a Green Lantern villain.

Pre-Flashpoint Maxima was not a good character, the New 52 version that appeared briefly was a lot better.

Superman doesn't have to be the strongest hero on Earth, or in the Justice League.

The main Superman books from Byrne reboot until the early 00s were mediocre at best.

[stephens2177]

Hank Henshaw works better as a Green Lantern villain.

Pre-Flashpoint Maxima was not a good character, the New 52 version that appeared briefly was a lot better.

Superman doesn't have to be the strongest hero on Earth, or in the Justice League.

The main Superman books from Byrne reboot until the early 00s were mediocre at best.

I'm.pretty sure I don't agree with any point you have stated anywhere in this entire thread lol

[adkal]

That's an easy fix; you just update the Planet. Hell you could even play into the decline of print and media buy-outs with the story.

Say the Planet is failing, and while it's still the world's leading paper, that doesnt mean anything. So right before the bank swoops down to close it, Perry borrows money from Lex (just for the sake of drama later on) buys the Planet, and takes it full-on guerrilla journalism; no big giant office, no printing press in the basement, just Perry and his small army of journalists fighting against corporate media and streaming the truth live to every smartphone, tablet, and computer around the world.

That might not be the best idea, but if a good writer put more than five minutes of thought into the Planet they could come up with some way to update the concept and keep it viable.

I know (and agree) that the preference is to lessen the impact/interaction of the Batverse with the Superverse, but I think using Bruce instead of Lex would be better.

Perry (to my mind) wouldn't trust Lex but he would trust Clark's recommendation of using Bruce (or someone similar). There could still be drama later - corporate shenanigans during one of Bruce's 'missing' periods or attempts at re-structuring without Lucius/Bruce's approval etc - which could impact Clark's relationship with Perry and the others, in the short term.

Or, instead of Bruce or Lex, there could be some other financier - perhaps someone who has developed a viable app for news dissemination - and we could have... hmm, anyone seen StartUp?

[Sacred Knight]

But...this steals her agency and robs HER of the closeness and love that she feels for him. I think that's part of what bugs me about this convo. Lois loves Clark. She loves him. That love she has for him in both personas belongs to her and to her history. It's not more "fun" to take that from her and deny her that love. It doesn't make her more of a badass by denying it. I have the opposite reaction btw. I think it's MORE interesting when they interact together now as Superman and Lois in public because they have to hide the fact that they are married. THAT is fresh and cool and complex and I wish writers would do more with it.

It doesn't steal her agency. She wasn't designed as Superman's wife. She was designed as his main love interest and main supporting cast member. You keep those things and the agency that is Lois Lane will always be intact. The classic set up is more fun for me as a reader because I find their relationship to be more interesting that way. And its really not that fresh for them to have to hide their relationship from the public. That's been a thing for over 20 years now. That's not to say the classic set-up isn't even more aged. That lasted around 50 years. So both are old set ups now. I just happen to prefer the latter more.

In the end this is moot because its obvious DC isn't going to go back to that again any time soon. But, in my opinion, after reading them as a married couple from the very beginning in 1996, I've come to the*opinion that their dynamic is better*as*rivals/friends whom are*mutually attracted to each other but not*monogamous. This is not rooted in patriarchy but*rather rooted in the idea that in fiction, the spark and the drama and the intensity of a romance story is always at its highest during the chase, and tends to fizzle out after the pay off. This isn't the case for every consumer of course,*and maybe when it comes to Superman fandom is a rare opinion, but for me, these days I fall into that category.

Edit...forgive the weird placements of asterisks. I think its a bug with my browser.

[Alan2099]

I know (and agree) that the preference is to lessen the impact/interaction of the Batverse with the Superverse, but I think using Bruce instead of Lex would be better.

Well, we all know lex is a bad guy and we don't want Batman coming in and saving the day in the Superman books, so why not goa third option.

make a new character.

Some other billionaire that we don't know anything about. That way we get the drama of actually NOT knowing what he's about. Is he a good guy? A bad guy? Does he have old mob connections that will come back to haunt him? Is this part of some bigger scheme? Maybe he's doing this because HE used to be big in the paper business or has family he wants to get into the business. Heck, maybe he's one of those lesser New Gods in disguise for some reason.

[adkal]

Well, we all know lex is a bad guy and we don't want Batman coming in and saving the day in the Superman books, so why not goa third option.

make a new character.

Some other billionaire that we don't know anything about. That way we get the drama of actually NOT knowing what he's about. Is he a good guy? A bad guy? Does he have old mob connections that will come back to haunt him? Is this part of some bigger scheme? Maybe he's doing this because HE used to be big in the paper business or has family he wants to get into the business.

Exactly, hence my last sentence

Or, instead of Bruce or Lex, there could be some other financier - perhaps someone who has developed a viable app for news dissemination - and we could have...

Heck, maybe he's one of those lesser New Gods in disguise for some reason.

G Gordon Godfrey is perfect for that kind of thing

[manofsteel1979]

Thank you. I don't want to cause any drama or hurt feelings but I do think it's weird that people seem consumed with trying to shove Lois out stage left or think of ways that Superman can hook up with other women.

I'll never forget someone asking Amy Poehler in a Reddit who her favorite superhero was and she said it was Superman ::because:: he was so committed to Lois Lane. THAT was what appealed to Poehler founder of SmartGirls and such a great successful female talent. People talk a lot about needing Superman to be a "bachelor" to be relatable but, you know, the other piece to this is that there is potentially a more diverse audience of female readers (who tend to dominate Superman's media properties FYI) who, frankly, are legitimately put off by this idea that Superman needs to hook up with all these other women to prove his manhood or something. Superman is appealing to me, in part, because he is DIFFERENT from every other comic book guy with revolving doors of love interests.

I agree that it's troubling and odd to see the urge or impulse to push Lois off stage. I don't think it's a coincidence that a lot of the most vocal WW/Superman shippers and people who want Superman to play the field etc. don't seem to like Lois all that much. In fact there's almost a vibe of irrational hatred and resentment towards the character which I can't wrap my head around. Not saying ALL Superwonder shippers hate Lois,but to read some of their postings it's obvious some do.

That brings me to my next controversial thought/opinion...the movement and inclination from some fans and creators to take away or change every unique aspect of the character and mythos to the point he is no longer Superman. Some want him depowered because he's too powerful to be challenged. They want to get rid of Clark Kent and the idea of a secret identity because such things are "outdated "and " Marvel got rid of secret identities of most of their characters and they are more popular than EVAH!" , Some people want to get rid of Lois Lane entirely because she's " boring" and not fit to be with Superman. Some want them to get rid of the classic blue and red suit with a cape look because it's too old fashioned.*

Now that's not to say some aspects of the character need to be tweaked and redefined in some aspects and come at things from new angles,but I don't favor just changing things for the sake of change just because To remain trendy or " kewl". There are certain aspects of Superman that should be sacrosanct as they are unique to that character and in fact he originated those concepts. After all,you don't see anyone saying Batman should be outed as Bruce Wayne and get rid of that identity,and should get rid of the cape and tights look because it isn't kewl anymore. Superman should remain Superman. Not transformed into some generic superhero to ride the wave of trends. In my opinion,if you don't want to write or draw or read Superman as he is and can't accept that certain things or aspects are immutable, then you shouldn't be writing or reading him. There are plenty other characters out there that can fill that niche.

Of course all I just said does NOT apply to Elseworlds and other " earths" were people can go crazy and reinvent the wheel. It's just that the Superman in the main DCU,the one published in ACTION COMICS and the main SUPERMAN book should adhere as close to the " classic" incarnation of the character as possible. That does NOT mean he should forever wear trunks over the tights or never be with anyone but Lois Lane and forever be a newspaper reporter,but he should be Kal-El sent to earth as a baby,raised by the Kents,grows up as Clark Kent and has extraordinary powers that he uses as Superman ,a red caped and blue suited Superhero who fights for truth and justice as journalist in his secret ID of Clark Kent,has a rivalry/friendship/ connection of some sort with Lois Lane etc. Deviate too much from that and he simply isn't Superman anymore,IMO. **

*Although I DID like the t-shirt and Jeans look as a proto precursor to the more traditional Superman attire. However,id never want to see it replacing the"real" suit.

** Yeah,i know Superman with a Son and the current set up of Clark and Lois Smith,time refugees is a departure from what I describe above,but the stories so far have been fun and I don't think the time refugee angle is going to last. If they don't resolve that eventually,then I won't be happy,but we shall see. Jon itself isn't an issue.

[Mr. Mastermind]

I'm quoting this small part for the gist, but all very well said. And welcome!

I'll never forget that bizarre attempt to play into this concept, the "Superman scores" t-shirt.

I always had this feeling that the higher ups at DC put Superman with Wonder Woman to make him look cooler and more of a masculine fantasy after Batman had those two qualities cornered and that T-shirt confirmed it. Restarting Superman without the marriage is fine by me but the way they almost completely ignored Lois in the New 52 was a massive mistake.

[L.R Johansson]

My positive thoughts on New-52 Superman are probably known, so I'll go for something different.

I think Earth-2 Kal-L should have been more of the template for the reboot following COIE - because going back to the source worked very well with Batman, and I see no reason why it wouldn't have worked with Superman as well.

Doomsday was a tremendously better character in Smallville - giving him a human persona and having him being a corrupt version of Lor-Zod/Val-Zod was a brilliant idea.

The huuuge Superman-shield with pointy edges, which Byrne made standard, and which has now (size-wise) become the standard once more is sterile, gaudy and unwieldy. Smaller, and with softened lower edges, is much better. (Pre-Crisis shield)

That's true, but what I mean is DC doesn't seem to acknowledge the reality and puts out these Rebirth comics as if this is the only Superman that matters. Really it shouldn't matter to readers if there's one Superman who is married with a kid and another Superman who isn't married and has no interest in settling down--both can exist on different worlds. DC shouldn't have to moosh them together on one Earth and give readers this false quandary.

And if they nodded to the other Earths that have existed--original Earth-Two, original Earth-One, original Earth-Prime, pre-Flashpoint New Earth, et al--and acknowledged that they continue to exist--that would set the writers free to pick and choose what they want for Earth-Rebirth and create entirely new stuff. Readers like me wouldn't be so put out--if we could know that our old Earths are out there somewhere, still trucking.

Wholeheartedly agree - this was the ORIGINAL purpose of the Multiverse, and every time DC brings it back, it can't seem to make proper use of it!

There's no reason to say everything from before doesn't exist any more - no, just give us a NEW Earth where the main stories take place! = )

This was actually my hope with Convergence - that it would give PC-Supes and those characters a world of their own, somewhere in the Multiverse, where they could have a happy end.


Heck, DC even retconned COIE! Yet, as far as we know, this great thing, wherein all the old worlds still exist in the Multiverse, still hasn't come true.


Oh well... It's too good of an idea for the DC execs' and the likes of Geoff Johns to grasp, it would seem.

[Kuwagaton]

Yeah, it's weird that the shield is like 90% the same but I find the pre-crisis one so much better. But I guess it's like how a nose half an inch too wide or long can make someone look less attractive.

The main Superman books from Byrne reboot until the early 00s were mediocre at best.

There was no helping it, but I think the one of the worst things for Superman has been the "hot creator" trend. The people who jump on shortly and blow their wad, usually leaving a big mess for others to clean up or too few developments to propel the status quo founded. Byrne was a heralded talent sort who pushed some weird stuff, but in the space of 2 years he wrote about 65 comics and drew 48, some of them not the same issue. Dude was a dragon. Meanwhile Bates, Maggin, Stern, Ordway, and Jurgens' first run were capable of maintaining a consistent quality across years of stories. You could go in with a decent understanding of what you were buying, not to say that it wouldn't suck if something you found mediocre refused to drastically change for a very long time.

[Francisco]

Stop depowering Superman