Controversial Superman Opinions

[Kuwagaton]

BL stuff was kinda frustrating because you have a brand new line and aside from the All Star reprint it was another origin from creators who did some of the same decades earlier. Granted it was their best respective work in years and I quite liked it.

Hmm... Year One, MoS, BvS, At Earth's End, Austen, Coming of the Supermen, and like half of Grounded. These are where projects I like show the difference between underrated and underappreciated.

[manwhohaseverything]

Superman being billed as mentor/father figure for the superhero community, does a shitty job of full filling it in writing.

[SiegePerilous02]

I can get behind that. Superman isn't a character who benefits from strict status quo shanagins anyway. I just want to read good stories and do not really care about how they all fit. If they can fit, that's really rad- but it doesn't have to be the norm. Having Superman be part of a nuclear family across all interpretations is sketchy and restricting.

I think Superman is the type of character who would benefit immensely with a 2000AD style approach of mostly one-shot, but weird and experimental stories. He'd have a core set of recurring cast and major villains, but these stories could be filled with characters, villains, locations and scenarios that don't have to always re-appear.

It's working wonderfully for Hal as well. In fact, I think most of the major DC characters are better suited for these types of stories as opposed to serializes soap operas and "arcs" which can come across as kind of pedestrian when they are played out too much

[Adekis]

I can get behind that. Superman isn't a character who benefits from strict status quo shanagins anyway. I just want to read good stories and do not really care about how they all fit. If they can fit, that's really rad- but it doesn't have to be the norm. Having Superman be part of a nuclear family across all interpretations is sketchy and restricting.

Yeah, I'm totally on board with this. Superman should be able to have a family, but he shouldn't have to have a family. His role isn't to be the Ultimate Dad, but to be the World's Greatest Adventure Hero. If one story has him with a wife and kids, and they can make that work, more power to them, but I'm very skeptical of universal consistency across all versions of Superman on this issue. In fact, I pretty firmly do not think it should be the norm.

Same, I dug YEAR ONE but I'm over the origin story.

Same. It was good in parts, and it was all at least interesting, but more standalone stories which aren't retreads of the same same origin would be so, so appreciated.

I think Superman is the type of character who would benefit immensely with a 2000AD style approach of mostly one-shot, but weird and experimental stories. He'd have a core set of recurring cast and major villains, but these stories could be filled with characters, villains, locations and scenarios that don't have to always re-appear.

It's working wonderfully for Hal as well. In fact, I think most of the major DC characters are better suited for these types of stories as opposed to serializes soap operas and "arcs" which can come across as kind of pedestrian when they are played out too much

I think that's a pretty good idea, as long as the stories don't get too mythic or too developmental too often? I mean I loved the "Adventures of Superman" series they did a while back, which is kind of what you're talking about, right? Except that there were almost never new, disposable characters involved, and a lot of the stories were designed as formative experiences for Superman.

The other thing is that I think this kind of experimental series would work better for a franchise where the writers and fans aren't already so so invested in the massive supporting cast that Superman's amassed over the years, and various reformulations and permutations of them. If there was a 2000AD style story with one kind of Lex and then a totally opposite kind of Lex six months later, that'd be... actually, that'd probably be the exact same problem we've always had with Lex, so I guess I withdraw my objection.

[Vordan]

BL stuff was kinda frustrating because you have a brand new line and aside from the All Star reprint it was another origin from creators who did some of the same decades earlier. Granted it was their best respective work in years and I quite liked it.

Hmm... Year One, MoS, BvS, At Earth's End, Austen, Coming of the Supermen, and like half of Grounded. These are where projects I like show the difference between underrated and underappreciated.

Wait Earth’s End? The one where Santa Superman uses a bazooka to kill the Hitler twins? Lmao man I thought I had unusual tastes! But you’ve definitely got one of the most uncommon tastes I’ve seen in the comic fandom. I still want to check out Austen’s run based off you listing it as enjoyable in contrast to everyone else who starts foaming at the mouth at the mere mention of Austen’s name.

[Kuwagaton]

Thanks, haha. I think it's a weird sort of push and pull with how Superman's "plain" traits actually help make him kinda weird and different from other characters fitting into the industry. He's so steady and straight when you sum up any era that it ends up remarkable how you can frame things around him and bring ideas through him after immediately understanding who he is for context. I'd say it what makes his imaginary/elseworlds library what it is. "How would war of the worlds have gone with Superman around?" and et cetera to the highest degree. Unfortunately because of the ways Batman, Spider-Man, and others are so popular it doesn't exactly help with being the most successful but you know it's not like he hasn't stayed ahead of 90% of the industry anyway. His sales on the two books means he moves some of the highest issue counts and I don't know which other solo hero gets spin offs like we have with Lois and Jimmy right now aside from like... Harley or Damian carving their paths over the years.

My favorite idea on the Death and Return saga is the meta commentary on Superman vs the 90s, with Doomsday literally being the poster boy and the story tropes aped like a thousand times since 1992. His declining sales culminated in his death, through spiking sales he was built up through the very 90s four, and the longer hair marked his adaptation, with more of those "big stories" even if the creators were also still trying to make him work the same way they did before all that. At Earth's End is... kind of a sequel to me lol.



It's pretty freaking ridiculous but then you remember the shelves being flooded with like Bloodstryke or Bladehawk in all the time between Death and Earth's End. Back then I remember Batman was in NML, and I saw Steel, Spawn, and B&R all in theaters, so although it missed the extreme Image style days it wasn't really off the mark of what had still been going on. It's also like another else worlds, Distant Fires, but on heavy drugs.

I'd love a No Country for Old Superman trade with Action #385-87, 396, 397, the King story from #1000, Superman #416's B-story, and Earth's End. Along the lines of dropping him into weird stuff, I think a 2000AD style project could only be good. But if we were speaking about general weird comic opinions, I have to admit that I like a lot of the IDW stuff as my favorite Dredd material.

[Flash Gordon]

I think Superman is the type of character who would benefit immensely with a 2000AD style approach of mostly one-shot, but weird and experimental stories. He'd have a core set of recurring cast and major villains, but these stories could be filled with characters, villains, locations and scenarios that don't have to always re-appear.

It's working wonderfully for Hal as well. In fact, I think most of the major DC characters are better suited for these types of stories as opposed to serializes soap operas and "arcs" which can come across as kind of pedestrian when they are played out too much

I absolutely love that idea.

[Agent Z]

Agreed.

We can't judge the quality of Silver Age comics against modern sensibilities without a ton of intersecting factors. The era, the audience, the culture, it was all wildly different from what we know today, and comics aren't structured the same way, or written for the same demographics.

But there's more imagination in the smallest part of the pre-Crisis mythos than post-Crisis was able to muster up in its first ten years. I'm not knocking on post-Crisis, don't get me wrong, I still hold the triangle era up as an example of how to do comics right. It might be the tightest world building Superman has ever seen. But post-Crisis tried so hard to bury the silly aspects of the Silver Age under a mountain of contemporary grounded reality, that almost all the fun and the fantastical nature of Superman got buried with it.

I myself can't understand why anyone would prefer the rather boring and common mythos of post-Crisis, which could have belonged to virtually any hero, over the wild and creative world of pre-Crisis Bronze and Silver Age. And I've said many times that losing that "champion of the people" mentality of the Golden Age was a huge loss for the character.

Modern sensibilities I can understand wanting over the dated writing of the Silver Age. But what's one of the most celebrated Super-stories of today? All-Star, and that was pure Silver Age Superman, right down to its DNA.

Preach. As for the bolded, I think post-Crisis would often go to insane lengths just to avoid the simple (if silly) explanations of the Silver Age. Yeah, Supergirl being Superman's cousin is awfully contrived, but it's easier to get across and build a foundation off of than convoluted stuff like pocket dimensions and angels, which just reads as insane in hindsight.

How are pocket dimensions, immortal cyborgs, angels, ice gods grounded?

Also, All Star Superman is not the only good Superman story from the 21st century. And frankly, I think the Superman comics are better off removing nonsense like Lois Lane turning herself into a black woman or the repeated gaslighting Superman inflicted on her.

[manwhohaseverything]

How are pocket dimensions,angels, grounded?

Also, All Star Superman is not the only good Superman story from the 21st century. And frankly, I think the Superman comics are better off removing nonsense like Lois Lane turning herself into a black woman or the repeated gaslighting Superman inflicted on her.

Those are part of postcrisis continuity. All star is based primarily on Pre-Crisis. Superman doesn't have to be grounded.

[Agent Z]

Those are part of postcrisis continuity.

So? that doesn't make them grounded. They aren't any more realistic than anything else that appeared before post crisis.

And Superman doesn't have to be like the Silver Age either.

[Kuwagaton]

That part itself I blame on era. Gag or melodrama, women in comics were treated as lesser adults than the children the stories were aimed at. The only reason pretty much any series can't claim being the worst from that is because years earlier minorities weren't even treated as human.

I get why "grounded" is used as a term but it isn't the most accurate. Superman hatched from a pod, Luthor's grief driving him to become a young Australian clone, Brainiac as a psychic xenomorph, Mxy no longer confined by his old weakness, Jimmy's dad, and all of the craziness from Lana Matrix to Linda the angel to name some of the plots. Some things were only weird from being carried over, but there aren't a lot of things that were grounded

[manwhohaseverything]

So? that doesn't make them grounded. They aren't any more realistic than anything else that appeared before post crisis.

And Superman doesn't have to be like the Silver Age either.

It isn't. you brought up all star which is silverage and compared things from postcrisis. Superman doesn't have to be silverage. But, he works exceptionally well like that(i am not talking about angels and pocket dimensions convoluted nonsense ) . People who think otherwise are plain wrong.

[SiegePerilous02]

How are pocket dimensions, immortal cyborgs, angels, ice gods grounded?

They're not really, but for some reason post-Crisis writers thought the pocket dimension and angel stuff was easier to swallow than a Kryptonian Supergirl despite being a great deal weirder and out of place in a Superman comic. Less is more, making something more complicated doesn't automatically equate to better.

Also, All Star Superman is not the only good Superman story from the 21st century. And frankly, I think the Superman comics are better off removing nonsense like Lois Lane turning herself into a black woman or the repeated gaslighting Superman inflicted on her.

It pretty much is regarded as the best one though, because it's not like the mainline Superman comics are offering it much in terms of competition. What else is there, Grounded and New Krypton? JMS's Earth One?

Also it's good that black Lois Lane and gas lighting are not actually in All-Star, so you can't really use it as proof that people who prefer the Pre-Crisis stuff overall necessarily want that stuff back in particular back. Which nobody says they want.

[manwhohaseverything]

I personally glad that Jimmy's transformations are back.

[SiegePerilous02]

I personally glad that Jimmy's transformations are back.

Jimmy needs a Silver Age tone (not necessarily a 1:1 transference of every writing quirk from that era) to really thrive.

His current series and All Star #4 really highlight how awesome he can be.