Controversial Superman Opinions

[Agent Z]

It pretty much is regarded as the best one though, because it's not like the mainline Superman comics are offering it much in terms of competition. What else is there, Grounded and New Krypton? JMS's Earth One?

Being the best isn't the same as being the only good one.

Also it's good that black Lois Lane and gas lighting are not actually in All-Star, so you can't really use it as proof that people who prefer the Pre-Crisis stuff overall necessarily want that stuff back in particular back. Which nobody says they want.

I never said that stuff was in All Star.

They're not really, but for some reason post-Crisis writers thought the pocket dimension and angel stuff was easier to swallow than a Kryptonian Supergirl despite being a great deal weirder and out of place in a Superman comic. Less is more, making something more complicated doesn't automatically equate to better.

Judging by some of the comments here, a lot of Superman fans liked things weirder. Or is this just having an issue with Linda herself?

It isn't. you brought up all star which is silverage and compared things from postcrisis. Superman doesn't have to be silverage. But, he works exceptionally well like that(i am not talking about angels and pocket dimensions convoluted nonsense ) . People who think otherwise are plain wrong.

I didn't bring up All Star, Ascended did.

[Vordan]

That part itself I blame on era. Gag or melodrama, women in comics were treated as lesser adults than the children the stories were aimed at. The only reason pretty much any series can't claim being the worst from that is because years earlier minorities weren't even treated as human.

I get why "grounded" is used as a term but it isn't the most accurate. Superman hatched from a pod, Luthor's grief driving him to become a young Australian clone, Brainiac as a psychic xenomorph, Mxy no longer confined by his old weakness, Jimmy's dad, and all of the craziness from Lana Matrix to Linda the angel to name some of the plots. Some things were only weird from being carried over, but there aren't a lot of things that were grounded

The great irony of Post Crisis is that the demand to keep things “grounded” instead made the Supermythos insanely convoluted and frankly flat out dumber in certain areas than the Pre Crisis incarnations. Supergirl, Kandor, Krypto, the Superboy-Legion connection, so many convoluted plot devices were created to try to get around the editorial edicts.

[manwhohaseverything]

Being the best isn't the same as being the only good one.
Judging by some of the comments here, a lot of Superman fans liked things weirder. Or is this just having an issue with Linda herself?

Being the best means it works. You can't say it doesn't.
My apologies, didn't read full convo.
Anyways, I Wouldn't mind linda back. She could be like superverse version of alita. Ofcourse, her background needs to be trimmed. That's it.Many silverage and goldenage stories are used as skeletal structure for modern tales like say godfall. It isn't something new. Even alan moore superman stories have taken the structure of old stories. Tone of the story depends on the what you wish to accomplish. New52 had a lot of the goldenage and silverage guy's elements . But,the tone was serious.

Besides, my main thinking is kids getting into superman . Superman should always be enjoyable to kids. If kids at the age of my nephew think it's boring. Then superman loses his purpose for me. Superman should be for everyone but targeted for kids above 7 or 8, most of the time. Stories for Adult and for kids below that, could be done too. but, it shouldn't be the focus.

[Kuwagaton]

The great irony of Post Crisis is that the demand to keep things “grounded” instead made the Supermythos insanely convoluted and frankly flat out dumber in certain areas than the Pre Crisis incarnations. Supergirl, Kandor, Krypto, the Superboy-Legion connection, so many convoluted plot devices were created to try to get around the editorial edicts.

But by that token I'd say the whole trimming of barnacles thing only applied to giving readers a fresh start, since no long running superhero comic can stay simple indefinitely. And although Supergirl gets a nod for being the most convoluted, for what it's worth I think it's pretty safe to say David's run has proven more popular than any Kara comic. Like Morrison's stories, a good writer with decent leg room there did a good story regardless of how people felt about the continuity.

I thought CoIE, Convergence, Infinite Crisis, and the like stand as bad examples of those, since the whole story is is getting lost in the nonsense instead of using it to get something.

[Rod G]

Wait Earth’s End? The one where Santa Superman uses a bazooka to kill the Hitler twins? Lmao man I thought I had unusual tastes! But you’ve definitely got one of the most uncommon tastes I’ve seen in the comic fandom. I still want to check out Austen’s run based off you listing it as enjoyable in contrast to everyone else who starts foaming at the mouth at the mere mention of Austen’s name.

Better Austen than Ennis.

[Tzigone]

Jimmy needs a Silver Age tone (not necessarily a 1:1 transference of every writing quirk from that era) to really thrive.

His current series and All Star #4 really highlight how awesome he can be.

I'm in the minority - don't generally like silver age (for most Superman characters). Much preferred Jimmy in radio show or bronze age (though Mr. Action was a bit too far). I liked seeing him grow up, though of course, I don't want him de-aged to do it all over again. But I hate him as the unvierse's buttmonkey or as a joke or dweeb, as sometimes happens.

[SiegePerilous02]

Being the best isn't the same as being the only good one.

What are some others that are on the same tier or close? Early 2000s Superman is considered to be one of the low points for the character, and stuff like OYL/New Krypton, Grounded, Truth, Earth One, SM/WW, etc. aren't considered highlights by everyone either.

I never said that stuff was in All Star.

But you said we could do with less Silver Age stuff to avoid that, but obviously Silver Age/pre-Crisis elements can be brought back without that stuff.

Judging by some of the comments here, a lot of Superman fans liked things weirder. Or is this just having an issue with Linda herself?

The post-Crisis Supergirl stuff is borne from wanting to avoid the simpler (if silly) premise of Kara Zor-El, and is a great deal more convoluted. Yeah we like stuff weird, but the basic premises of the characters and the set up for their dynamics are all simple and easy to understand before they get launched into weird stuff. Matrix/Linda is weird from the get go, and all her mythos has little to do with Superman. Which is why the Super mythos doesn't really feel her absence. "Cousin of Superman" gets its point across much more elegantly.

I have the first of the new trades for David's Supergirl, and I like Linda and parts of the story. But it could really be a fringe Vertigo-style title about "Angel Girl" or something with no ties to Superman and it wouldn't be that different. I might actually enjoy it more

[Vordan]

Better Austen than Ennis.

Oddly enough, Ennis wrote a great Superman when Superman showed up in Hitman and in Hitman/JLA.

[SiegePerilous02]

Ennis would be a far bigger risk than Warren Ellis, but since he seems to genuinely like Superman and if we catch him on a good day....screw it, I'd say give him the title if he wanted it

If he runs with the Superman-Batman feud, expect to see some of the most savage jabs at Batman we've ever seen in a Superman book lol.

[Ascended]

I didn't bring up All Star, Ascended did.

I sure did.

And yeah, post-Crisis was far more grounded than what came before. Grounded by superhero standards, of course. Sure, there were some immortals here or there, we had the living embodiment of a few abstract philosophical concepts, whatever, but by and large? Yeah, post-Crisis was pretty basic by design.

I didn't say that was a bad thing, just that it's not what I want out of my Superman. Someone said some Superman fans like things weird. I'm one of them. Superman is no basic bitch, so why should his stories be? Just because the guy is the godfather of the genre doesn't mean he has to stick to generic plots with generic stakes and villains.

And Ennis would be an intriguing writer for Clark. That guy, somehow, actually gets Superman. I don't know how or why, but he does. He's like.....he's like the hero killer Stain from My Hero Academia; dude knows most heroes are worthless but Superman is the one guy who's actually worthy of the title. Ennis would do right by Superman, I have little doubt.

[SiegePerilous02]

I sure did.

And yeah, post-Crisis was far more grounded than what came before. Grounded by superhero standards, of course. Sure, there were some immortals here or there, we had the living embodiment of a few abstract philosophical concepts, whatever, but by and large? Yeah, post-Crisis was pretty basic by design.

I didn't say that was a bad thing, just that it's not what I want out of my Superman. Someone said some Superman fans like things weird. I'm one of them. Superman is no basic bitch, so why should his stories be? Just because the guy is the godfather of the genre doesn't mean he has to stick to generic plots with generic stakes and villains.

And Ennis would be an intriguing writer for Clark. That guy, somehow, actually gets Superman. I don't know how or why, but he does. He's like.....he's like the hero killer Stain from My Hero Academia; dude knows most heroes are worthless but Superman is the one guy who's actually worthy of the title. Ennis would do right by Superman, I have little doubt.

Yeah, I think post-Crisis Superman is more "grounded" in the sense that he and his world are still fantastical, but considerably more subdued than they were before, not as big. At least early on.
Compare that to having some other Kryptonian survivors which expands the Krypton lore; they went overboard in some instances, but Kara, the Phantom Zone criminals, the original Krypto (and super pets), Kandor (which provides the origins for Nightwing and Flamebird), Argo City pre-destruction, etc, they all make his world seem bigger with more exciting locations and characters. There is also the connection to the Legion of Superheroes, Bizarro World, Lexor, and all the rest.

They also put limitation on his power set. Pulling nonsensical powers out of thin air in the Silver Age is going overboard, but dialing it down to the point where he is still powerful for Golden Age-level stories and too weak for the more cosmic stuff of pre-Crisis is just an unsatisfying middle ground. And can be fulfilled by any generic flying brick. Plus his connection to the Legion was severed, and he never consistently got it back. That basically boil things down to Metropolis and Smallville. Like you say, it's "basic bitch" and Superman shouldn't be basic.

I think Ennis likes Superman because he's the granddaddy of the genre, and pretty much the most original idea out of all of them. Nearly everything that followed him is a response to his formula in some way.

[Adekis]

What are some others that are on the same tier or close? Early 2000s Superman is considered to be one of the low points for the character, and stuff like OYL/New Krypton, Grounded, Truth, Earth One, SM/WW, etc. aren't considered highlights by everyone either.

I don't like most of the stories you just listed, as expected. I do think Truth is kind of underrated, and complex on a theme-and-character level. I find it fascinating that Pak pretty much always has Superman do what I think Superman should do in a given situation, and then turns around and says "hey, that wasn't a good thing to do!" But that didn't start during Truth. Also, I'll admit, I never read the Gene Luen Yang or Batman/Superman side of Truth, so for all I know they're terrible.

But I actually have quite a fondness for the early '00s Superman, even though I hate how Superman's background became so fluid and groundless, and it eventually led to the "almost one major origin story every year" status quo that haunted us so much during the late '00s and arguably to this day! But during the '00s period, there was still enough of that post-Crisis consistency left over from the triangle years, Steel was still a major figure, I don't think the writers had "lost" how to write Lois yet, and Superman himself was kind of punched up in terms of the scale of his adventures, which I really liked.

I will admit though, this is probably the point when Superman's supporting cast of just... normal characters around the city, seemed to start fading into the background, a trend which continued until the likes of Ron Troupe and Cat Grant hardly appear at all, these days. That combined with the "Everything You Know is Right" retcon from 2001 really did some major lasting harm. And the most famous story from that era, What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way? is frankly one of the most overrated hot messes to ever be included on a "Best Of" list, even though I definitely think there's a good story in there screaming to get out. It'll probably never get out, not past the themes of "Never Ever Killing, disregard all the times Superman has killed Doomsday or Henshaw or two Zods or whoever," but maybe one day.

Anyway. I guess I meant to say that Early '00s era isn't so bad, but I probably argued more against it than for it, huh?

Well Superman and Steel teaming up on the reg is a great thing that needs to come back.

Jimmy needs a Silver Age tone (not necessarily a 1:1 transference of every writing quirk from that era) to really thrive.

His current series and All Star #4 really highlight how awesome he can be.

Yeah, absolutely. It's kind of funny; I've got a particular favorite era or writing style for every Superman character or element, and for Jimmy, it's the Silver Age, without a doubt.

There's been a lot of talk recently about how the post-Crisis reboot really messed with Superman's world initially by making it so much less unique, and I think Jimmy got hit pretty hard in that transition. Don't get me wrong, I think Jimmy does okay, when the writers go out of their way to make sure he's a part of the stories! But a man-of-action photographer in a "Spin Doctors" t-shirt who's friends with Superman, that's one kind of cool, and the bow-tie wearing Bizarre Transformation King, Legionnaire and Kandorian Boy Wonder, that's a very, very different kind of awesome!

[Agent Z]

What are some others that are on the same tier or close?

Red Son, Superman #204, Secret Origin, Birthright, Lex Luthor: Man of Steel, Kingdom Come, Action Comics 775 and I don't even like the last two. There is a huge middle ground between the greatest Superman story ever made and unreadable drek.

But you said we could do with less Silver Age stuff to avoid that, but obviously Silver Age/pre-Crisis elements can be brought back without that stuff.

It's a hell lot less likely to happen in a non-Silver Age book. There is a reason the Silver Age has the reputation it does today.

[SiegePerilous02]

Red Son, Superman #204, Secret Origin, Birthright, Lex Luthor: Man of Steel, Kingdom Come, Action Comics 775 and I don't even like the last two. There is a huge middle ground between the greatest Superman story ever made and unreadable drek.



It's a hell lot less likely to happen in a non-Silver Age book. There is a reason the Silver Age has the reputation it does today.

Secret Origin IS unreadable drek.
Fair on the rest, though I think some of their reputations are overrated. And even so, that's still only a number of stories that doesn't reach the double digits. And none of them really surpass or come close to the iconic status of Death from the 90s save All Star.

It is less likely to happen in a non-Silver age book. So a modern book that pulls ideas from that era is more likely to have the sense not to use it. Stuff like All-Star and Jimmy Olsen are not actually silver age books despite pulling inspiration from it pretty heavily. That's more the stuff people want, not a full transplant of everything from that era.

[Kuwagaton]

The worst I can say about SO is that it only seemed to do one original thing, Wonka Lex, and it was not great or something anyone developed. Because he did the story at the end of the road, Johns made his origin a lot more necessary than it should be because all the stuff before it depends on getting what he put into SO. Of course we'd have been quite well off, better to me for sure, just sticking with Birthright and retconning in the Legion from that one arc. I agree with Adekis in general about the unfortunate trend of having to do different origins so often but I liked that story a lot at the time and still think it's cool/functional.

They also put limitation on his power set. Pulling nonsensical powers out of thin air in the Silver Age is going overboard, but dialing it down to the point where he is still powerful for Golden Age-level stories and too weak for the more cosmic stuff of pre-Crisis is just an unsatisfying middle ground. And can be fulfilled by any generic flying brick. Plus his connection to the Legion was severed, and he never consistently got it back. That basically boil things down to Metropolis and Smallville. Like you say, it's "basic bitch" and Superman shouldn't be basic.

It was pretty much the only solution they'd have gone with in response to everyone complaining about his powers I think. Even in stories I like I have to admit the high levels meant a poorly thought out conclusion.