Controversial Superman Opinions

[Superlad93]

Oh, don't know if I've ever posted this here, but I'm of the opinion that Christopher Priest has it in him to be one of the all time greats for a Superman book.

The fact that he's apparently never been invited to write anything Superman related is one of our great failing as species. Yes, he's effective with "dark" characters, but his rang in voices and characterizations are at the tip top in comics. Warren Ellis or Kieron Gillen are the only other two whom I can think of that in any way rival Priest in this regard. So typecasting him as *just* the guy that writes the f#&ked up dark characters is no an forever a fundamental misunderstanding of his strengths as a writer.

I'd absolutely love to see Priest get either a Black Label Superman book or the Batman/Superman book if it stars Luke and Jon, because unsurprisingly his seemingly infinite range in voices and characterizations lets him write some of the best young adult and teen characters around.

[fan_of_the_messiah]

I concur 100% with your choice sir! Christopher Priest would indeed by a superb choice to write a Superman book. In fact the prestige is one of my favourite Christopher Priest novels. He is great with dark characters certainly, but then Mario Puzo who wrote The Godfather did indeed pen Superman. Ultimately I think it's about having a writer who truly understands the characters right down to the core, their motivations and keeping to the source material.

Slightly off topic, but did anyone enjoy Frank Miller's Superman year one? Am I alone in thinking that Miller is too jaded and cynical to depict Superman as a stand alone character. I'm not a fan of Batman or Daredevil but he did very well with those characters in The Dark Knight Returns and Born Again. But I didn't quite like some of the routes he was taking with Superman, such as Clark joining the US military. To me personally that was a big WTF moment. Apologies for any offence.

[phantom1592]

Because it was the same writers, that idea doesn't contradict the original story though. We're looking at this twenty five years later so it's not like these things exist separately from each other either.

The JL by the way wasn't that League. I mean Booster, Maxima, Ice, Fire, and Guy... they were set up to fail. They didn't just get beaten up by Doomsday, but he did it with one arm tied behind his back.

yeah... but that was a legit outcome. That League was REALLY rather weak. Even at their best they didn't stand a chance. The closest I could think that SHOULD have had a chance would have been Guy Gardner. However him leaping in like a moron just to get his fists dirty... was REALLY in-character for him at that time. Standing in the background and blasting him or throwing him into the sun... wouldn't have been Guy being Guy. He was known for making bad decisions. The rest? they were simply outclassed.

[Vordan]

Oh, don't know if I've ever posted this here, but I'm of the opinion that Christopher Priest has it in him to be one of the all time greats for a Superman book.

The fact that he's apparently never been invited to write anything Superman related is one of our great failing as species. Yes, he's effective with "dark" characters, but his rang in voices and characterizations are at the tip top in comics. Warren Ellis or Kieron Gillen are the only other two whom I can think of that in any way rival Priest in this regard. So typecasting him as *just* the guy that writes the f#&ked up dark characters is no an forever a fundamental misunderstanding of his strengths as a writer.

I'd absolutely love to see Priest get either a Black Label Superman book or the Batman/Superman book if it stars Luke and Jon, because unsurprisingly his seemingly infinite range in voices and characterizations lets him write some of the best young adult and teen characters around.

Priest would piss off a lot of people with his take, but I’d definitely be interested, out of curiosity for what he would want to do if nothing else.

[jetengine]

I concur 100% with your choice sir! Christopher Priest would indeed by a superb choice to write a Superman book. In fact the prestige is one of my favourite Christopher Priest novels. He is great with dark characters certainly, but then Mario Puzo who wrote The Godfather did indeed pen Superman. Ultimately I think it's about having a writer who truly understands the characters right down to the core, their motivations and keeping to the source material.

Slightly off topic, but did anyone enjoy Frank Miller's Superman year one? Am I alone in thinking that Miller is too jaded and cynical to depict Superman as a stand alone character. I'm not a fan of Batman or Daredevil but he did very well with those characters in The Dark Knight Returns and Born Again. But I didn't quite like some of the routes he was taking with Superman, such as Clark joining the US military. To me personally that was a big WTF moment. Apologies for any offence.

Several people on here were unhappy, myself included as were several of my friends.

[Robanker]

Just gonna go out and say it:

Lex Luthor getting absolutely wrecked by TBWL after spending 40 issues of buildup in Justice League is DC's way of devaluing him as a threat. He damn near takes the entirety of creation, but he still can't take Snyder's pet Batman. Yikes.

[manwhohaseverything]

Just gonna go out and say it:

Lex Luthor getting absolutely wrecked by TBWL after spending 40 issues of buildup in Justice League is DC's way of devaluing him as a threat. He damn near takes the entirety of creation, but he still can't take Snyder's pet Batman. Yikes.

When and where did this happen? Wow! So, superman isn't the only jobber. His villain gets to job,too.how wonderfull!!

[Robanker]

When and where did this happen? Wow! So, superman isn't the only jobber. His villain gets to job,too.how wonderfull!!

The cover of Hell Arisen #4 depicts TBWL laughing over Luthor's body. I figured maybe the variant would be an inverse, though not likely, but the solicit for Death Metal essentially reveals that TBWL brought the Dark Multiverse to Earth; he wins.

I've not read Death Metal yet (obviously) and I'm not reading Hell Arisen, but in the stuff I do read where he shows up, TBWL does come across as a pandering mess that does induce jobbing because he's determined by fate to win as opposed to really earning it, much as most poor writers depict supremely intelligent characters. It's less about having an intricate plan and more "I had this trump card THE WHOLE TIIIIIIME." I admit Lex falls victim to this at times too, but it becomes especially annoying when it's the ultimate cashgrab sin doing so: their most popular hero and villain fused into a Judge Death ripoff.

And please, can this talk on Clark jobbing just die or get its own thread?


Another hot take for Superman:

Jon should just have purple eyes (taking after his mother) going forward and his Superman should have more in line with his mother than being a carbon copy of his pop. Maybe a more cynical take on criminal reform, or perhaps he is more willing to kill tyrant would-be planet conquerors that his dad would otherwise just send home packing. I love Jon as a wide-eyed idealistic kid, even a teen, but he absolutely NEEDS to be differentiated from his father and I recall Lois supporting capital punishment from somewhere.

If done, however, he absolutely should do so with regret or take no pleasure in it. I don't want some EXTREME Superman. Jon's still a good person, he would absolutely feel the weight of what he has to do, but can anyone safely say Mongul's just going to hang it up this time? That he's not going to enslave civilizations and rebuild War World AGAIN? Clark would send him--at worst-- to the Phantom Zone. Yes, Clark has killed from time to time, but for the most part he may as well not. If Jon's first arc in 5G has him come up against Mongul and regretfully put him down, that could be an interesting turn for the character. Certainly not evil, but not his dad.

I don't need for any of that (sans his eye color, dammit) changing, but I really do want to see more of Lois in the kid. She wasn't just some incubator for Clark's son. She's his mother, dammit!

[Agent Z]

It would kinda hard to write a story where nobody loses. Again, lossing and jobbing are two different thing.jl is just losing to doomsday.
Just like this

This is jobbing

Booster gold losing to doomsday is just that.
Booster gold losing to harley quinn is jobbing.

The JLA losing to Doomsday to sell him as a threat is the very definition of jobbing.

Superman's loss to Batman in TDKR is more of a standard loss and it only really happened because he didn't want the fight.

[manwhohaseverything]

No because there is a pecking order in regards to power. It's sending the info of an unencountered being's position in it. Because the guys are over with readers regardless of the loss. Even, if a jl character let say booster beat doomsday. It wouldn't have helped him go over with readers . In this case, its further cemented as loss and not jobbing by the fact that doomsday stayed a threat of that level.it's like goku losing to beerus.Goku winning wouldn't have made a difference.

Batman beating superman Is jobbing at its finest. because the character that won doesn't come anywhere near in regards to power. it did effect loser,adversely in regards to popularity . Jobbing affects the jobber character adversely in terms of going over with the fans. The jobber isn't supposed to look strong in any manner. See if batman hadn't beaten superman. It wouldn't have mattered to the character's popularity because of the pecking order of power that was created prior. It would have only be seen as natural outcome. Since he did, defying the pecking order and since, superman did suffer hit to his momentum with fans. Its jobbing.

[Johnny Thunders!]

I am completely okay with any member of the Justice League being able to take out the rest. At least the big Seven and up to and including most of the Satellite, 90's Justice League. I think I extend that rule to much of the JSA and The Legion? I actually like Frank Miller's Superman. Year One is terrific and I look forward to Year 2. It's probably my favorite of the Black Label books so far but I need to read the Lemire Joker. Superman is a broken figure in The Dark Knight's first two chapters, and Miller's Superman does indeed know how to fight. Batman says something to the effect that he knew all his moves.

[Johnny Thunders!]

I think Elliot S! Maggin's books balance the character nicely, from the Kents to Superboy, to Superman, to Krypto. Whoops! Clark too. Maybe not so much.

[The World]

I concur 100% with your choice sir! Christopher Priest would indeed by a superb choice to write a Superman book. In fact the prestige is one of my favourite Christopher Priest novels. He is great with dark characters certainly, but then Mario Puzo who wrote The Godfather did indeed pen Superman. Ultimately I think it's about having a writer who truly understands the characters right down to the core, their motivations and keeping to the source material.

Slightly off topic, but did anyone enjoy Frank Miller's Superman year one? Am I alone in thinking that Miller is too jaded and cynical to depict Superman as a stand alone character. I'm not a fan of Batman or Daredevil but he did very well with those characters in The Dark Knight Returns and Born Again. But I didn't quite like some of the routes he was taking with Superman, such as Clark joining the US military. To me personally that was a big WTF moment. Apologies for any offence.

I thought Year One was pretty good until the third issue when it became insane. It was very "grounded" but it worked for what it was trying to do but then that third issue hit and it felt like three issues worth of story was vacuum packed into one.

[Johnny Thunders!]

It does feel unfinished.

[DochaDocha]

There are degrees to jobbing.

Yes, the JLA (1992 version) appearance in the Death of Superman was just to get beat. I find that falls under one interpretation of "jobbing."

On the other hand, as mentioned prior, there is a pecking order. I hate any insinuation that the JLA is something of a "Round Table," in which all of the members are equals of some sort. They are not. If Wonder Woman can't take a bad guy's hit, then it's going to kill Batman. Period. On the other hand, if a bad guy wallops Batman, that doesn't mean Wonder Woman or Aquaman would have the same fate. There are going to be losses that seem more reasonable than others, whether or not they're jobbing. Going back to WW, Aquaman, and Batman, say a villain KO's all of them in one punch. You could say all three of them are jobbing. But it's a lot worse for WW and Aquaman than Batman, because a punch that can KO, but doesn't kill, Batman should not KO Aquaman or WW. Likewise, a punch that KO's WW should made Batman's head explode.

I classify TDKR fight as jobbing. Superman's appearance in that story was build-up for the climactic scene that everyone likes to quote. People can interpret that book in many different ways, but the thing nobody can deny (or forget) is Batman's speech about having his hand around Superman's neck. I consider Green Lantern's appearance in early New 52 JL to be jobbing to Superman, because the point of that story was to point out how powerful Superman is while simultaneously showing how arrogant and in need of humbling Hal was. But Batman in that scene was not jobbing, IMO. That's literally a no-win situation and I think Batman was there to be the voice of reason that Green Lantern lacked.