Controversial Superman Opinions

[Prime]

Yup. He supposedly knocked up, Lashina. They had a relationship (more like she took advantage of him) when he was mind controlled by Granny Goodness and at the service of Darkseid. If Superman was to have a son with another woman instead of Lois I rather he was in complete use of his mental capabilities at the time.

that would have been a cool reveal. Something different. Wonder how Superman would have reacted?

[Francisco]

Lois Lane quickly became an individual character like Robin or Black Canary. She could exist on her own and support her own series.

I think the reason some people want to see her gone now has been an indirect result of the marriage. When Lois existed as Superman's wife, a lot of readers stopped seeing her as the independent character who did not have to always be attached to Superman. And they didn't like her for that, because that's all she seemed to be.

That's one reason I want Lois not to be married to Superman, because I want her to exist. I don't want her to be killed off, so Superman can be free to date around. Making her the wife made her a target.

I also don't like pairing Wonder Woman with Superman. WW should be an independent character and not subordinate to Superman. If there was nothing romantic in their partnership that would be different.

But if Superman is always teamed with Batman and Wonder Woman, when does he get to team with other characters? I'd like to see Superman team-ups with a variety of DC characters. However, his appointment book is so full, I don't know when he'd have the time.

Smart individual with a deep understanding of the characters.

[Prime]

Lois Lane quickly became an individual character like Robin or Black Canary. She could exist on her own and support her own series.

I think the reason some people want to see her gone now has been an indirect result of the marriage. When Lois existed as Superman's wife, a lot of readers stopped seeing her as the independent character who did not have to always be attached to Superman. And they didn't like her for that, because that's all she seemed to be.

That's one reason I want Lois not to be married to Superman, because I want her to exist. I don't want her to be killed off, so Superman can be free to date around. Making her the wife made her a target.

I also don't like pairing Wonder Woman with Superman. WW should be an independent character and not subordinate to Superman. If there was nothing romantic in their partnership that would be different.

But if Superman is always teamed with Batman and Wonder Woman, when does he get to team with other characters? I'd like to see Superman team-ups with a variety of DC characters. However, his appointment book is so full, I don't know when he'd have the time.

Give Lois a solo?

[Francisco]

that would have been a cool reveal. Something different. Wonder how Superman would have reacted?

Under Bruce Timm? Like a perfect idiot needing Batman to make up his mind. Written properly? Probably outraged at first (he wasn't himself during the conception), then worried for the baby and launching an assault on Apokolips to rescue him.

[MeloDet]

So for what it's worth? I'm pretty young. And I keep up with celeb trends and I read about celebs and all that stuff. I definitely see a shift in the way younger celeb men (20's and 30's) view marriage now. I think it's absolutely considered more masculine now in progressive circles for sexy guys to want to be committed if that's what they are into. And that's what I see amongst the men I know all of whom are young, attractive, successful men. They look at friends who refuse to commit and view it as Peter Pan syndrome. They don't have this outdated view that kids are a chain around your neck. The pushback I DO see is not about marriage but about heteronormativity. The pushback in progressive circles tends to be about queer men being able to express their feelings and have equal rights. For bisexual men to come out and be themselves. But when I look at celeb culture and the young men I know? Most of them are happy to be married so long as people who are given the same rights. Marriage and children have not "lost their luster" for any guy i know. In fact, most of the men I know (both gay and straight) are thrilled to become fathers and are super excited to be active in their lives. What I personally see (among my admittedly very progressive group of friends) is a rejection of the idea that marriage and kids is some kind of "ball and chain." That's a really outdated view that was predicated by years of sitcoms with the "dumb" husband and his "nagging" wife but even entertainment doesn't really reflect that bad stereotype anymore because I think enough people pointed out it was BS. Again, I'm pretty young and this is my experience as a young married person.

Fair enough. Though for what it's worth my opinion is also based on my experience as a young person and the young men I've met. And I'm not talking about the whole Peter Pan syndrome or commitment phobia either. I'm talking specifically about marriage not long term committed relationships. It's not about marriage being a ball and chain so much as it's about legal issues, divorce rates, etc. If we've both seen different trends then we'll just have to disagree on that. As far as celebrities go I don't really think much of their opinions. They are valid, but no more valid than any one else I might meet.

But either way, I think the point is that Clark Kent is a traditional guy who wants to be married. I also think it fits Lois. We see time and time again in canon that she loves Clark and wants to be with him and I'm not down with this idea that career oriented women have to end up alone to pursue her dreams. Marriage and kids have certainly not "lost their luster" to him as he's just not that cynical about life.

I agree that Clark is definitely the kind of guy who would want to get married, and my comment on Lois was only meant to convey that it would be more debatable than it would be for Clark. I don't really have an opinion on whether she would or not.

If you have not seen Outlander...you prob shouldn't try to comment on it. Yes, it's about time travel. But it's also a love story and the couple in the love story are husband and wife and they have a kid. It's no more untraditional than a story about Superman and Lois Lane has to be. They are a committed couple who go through a ton of drama and connect and reconnect passionately over many years as husband and wife. The term "settled down" is a weird term to begin with as it has roots in sexism. There is literally no reason why Lois and Clark can't live exciting lives while being married to each other.

You're right in that I haven't seen the whole series, but I've watched a few episodes and my sister has told me enough about it to say what I said. I don't mean that it's only about time travel and not love, and when I used the term "settled down" (and that was a poor choice on my part) I only meant that they, due to the ongoing nature of comics, live the lives that an ordinary married couple would. There will of course be arcs where this changes (say they are flung into the future or space and are on an adventure), but most of the time they live together and go to work everyday like an ordinary couple. As you yourself say they connect and reconnect over many years. The nature of the story is such that their status quo isn't the same as Lois and Clarks.

You say that marriage is "never exciting" but....that's just not true, dude. It can be very exciting and very passionate in the same way that courtship is and I say that from personal experienced. I can tell that you have a personal aversion to it and there is no judgement there but I think you need to look at this narrative removed from that more cynical view because that doesn't fit Clark Kent. And frankly,it doesn't fit Lois either. They like being together.

I meant that romance stories about a married couple aren't exciting. And that's not based in cynicism but in the general nature of stories. Most of the time there needs to be conflict in a story for it to be compelling. I'm sure that marriages in real life can be full of excitement. But what aspects of romance in marriage are exciting to read about? Again married couples can do exciting things or have exciting moments, but I'm drawing a blank on what could possible make romance between two married people exciting for other people to read about.

Maybe I screwed up by putting the bit about not holding marriage in particular high esteem part. I don't really have anything against it and I see myself probably getting married someday. I just meant that I don't hold it on the pedestal that some people do as the be all end all of true commitment or romance. And beyond that my main point is about the nature of romance in stories, not in real life. And barring a few exceptions stories are built around a general template of a building conflict, climax, and resolution. What I'm talking about in regards to romance stories aren't stories where the characters have a romance or romance exists, but stories where their romance is part of the central story. And in order for the to be the case there needs to be conflict, something harder to achieve in a situation where the two characters are in a healthy and committed relationship.

[Prime]

Under Bruce Timm? Like a perfect idiot needing Batman to make up his mind. Written properly? Probably outraged at first (he wasn't himself during the conception), then worried for the baby and launching an assault on Apokolips to rescue him.

God I hated how Bruce Timm made almost everyone an idiot to make Batman look cool.

[Mr. Mastermind]

I like Superman having different romantic partners. Silver Age Superman was pretty much a ladies man. Sure Superman could end up with Lois, but wait if he had a child with Maxima or one of the female furies and decides to raise him or her with Lois? That was the plan in the original JLU ending episodes. It was going to be revealed that one of the female furies gave birth to Superman's offspring. I think it was the one with the bandages.

I'm like Superman having romantic interests before Lois even though I don't want him to become some sort of Dick Grayson style ladies man (and surely the Captain Kirk of the DCU is Hal?). Developing and updating the characters of Maxima and Lori Lemaris would make Superman's supporting cast a lot richer (especially Maxima, who comes off like a generic male fantasy at times). But these are all ultimately distractions and temporary status quo changes to me, as I think Superman's romance with Lois Lane is one of the most integral aspects of the character.

[magha_regulus]

I agree with your assessment of the relationship between Lois and Superman as being partners and the potential for that being shown through Marriage. I disagree with you about marriage and monagamy's place in the society we live in. Economic factors are driving many people to choose not to have children and with the advent of effective means of birth control and contraception monogamy is on the decline as well among all genders. This will probably start to shift mid-to-late century as demographic decline sets in and we have a crisis of not having enough people to do enough work.

I personally think that we need to take a page from Octavia Butler and highlight the fact that Kryptonians are ALIENS. I think Kryptonians should be shown to have an evolutionary preference for more masculine types to be attracted to adventurous feminine types and for more feminine types to be more attracted to scientific types. We could use Jor-El and Lara as the example. Jor El being the scientist and Lara being the Space Adventurer/Soldier. Lois could be shown to initially like Superman because she likes the competition with what's perceived as the most "Alpha" of Alpha males but really falls head over heels in love with Clark Kent. As she gets to know Superman more she sees that he's not as "Alpha" and is really more geeky than he appears to be (maybe she sees him gushing over his collection at the Fortress of Solitude). As she gets to know Clark more she see the more humble, steadfast, heroism there as he uses his reporting skill to amplify the voice of the little guy. Lois falling in love with Clark over Superman is important in getting Superman to open up to her and reveal himself.

Yes, it steals her agency. Look, you are entitled to your opinion (and I know from looking at your other posts that you favor Superman/WW so obviously that is also influencing you here) but I'm trying to carefully ask you to reflect on how gender can and does impact how we are trained to see media.

Lois and Superman were created together in 1938. To say that things were different back then for women (just as they were different in the 70's) is an understatement. Yet, even Jerry Siegel himself by the early 1940's realized that Lois and Superman should be working as partners. We know that from the K-Metal story.

Media has trained us for decades to believe that romantic relationships are more "exciting" during the chase and that is absolutely tied to patriarchy. It stems from centuries of stories where women were viewed as a "prize" that a man "wins" and once a man wins the prize the narrative is over. These stories rarely ever take into account what the woman wants, how she feels, what she desires. This is how media has trained people to view love and we need to break it.

There is nothing "modern" about a Clark Kent who can't be monogamous with the woman he loves. The idea that it's more exciting is a dated view of masculinity that upholds this idea that romance is more exciting when you "aren't tied down." We know now that this kind of viewpoint generally isn't fair to the women involved and rarely takes into account what they want or think. Just as we know now that the idea that "the chase" is always the most important part of love is also a fallacy because it creates this situation where people think life and adventure is "over" when you get married and that's just not fair to anyone to imply that.

Years ago, Hollywood was dominated by these eternal bachelor heroes who strung women along and just couldn't be monogamous. The Warren Beatty types were very popular. James Bond with a new woman in every movie was this masculine ideal. But in the last 25-30 years...our view of masculinity has changed. And this is a GOOD thing. Our "sexiest man alive" used to be a playboy or a guy who couldn't commit. Today? Our sexiest man alive is almost always a committed husband and father. Being a good husband and father is considered "hot" and sexy now in a way it didn't used to be and this is a genuinely GREAT thing. And our media really has to reflect this too. The idea of the long time single guy who just can't be monogamous is not viewed the same way as it was 30 years ago. It's considered pathetic now. The ideal now is that men are emotionally mature which is what Superman NEVER was in all those years of stories where he strung Lois along or couldn't marry her out of some kind of duty. Our culture celebrates men now who go all in for their families. In turn, this allows Lois to have a full experience of female emotions too. Do all women need to get married or be mothers? No. But they also need to be ::allowed:: the choice if it's something they want and narrative has shown us repeatedly that she wants to be with Superman. She loves him. And he loves her.

Superman is such a unique hero because he is monogamous. It's not like comics or superheroes are lacking for a male character who isn't monogamous and just keeps several women in the picture as that's literally every other male hero. Batman, Iron Man, Green Arrow...the list goes on. There are so few marriages in the genre and it's one of the things that makes Superman special.

I just think it really is important to evaluate (and I genuinely say this with zero judgment) how we've been trained to view romance through the lens of culture. The idea that the "chase" is better ::is:: rooted in patriarchy. You can't control how you feel and it's not your fault you feel that way but it's worth some reflection about how these things get formed.

In the meantime? I agree that Lois and Clark are fun as rivals and competing with each other. I would genuinely love to see a writer on Superman who pushes the boundaries a bit of their marriage and shows how two people can love each other but also be in competition. "Lois and Clark" had an episode like that in the 4th season where Lois got promoted over Clark and it was pretty cool. I also come back o reality that this would benefit from a female writer as a younger female writer might know how to push things in a way an older guy isn't going to. And I repeat my broken record of using Outlander as a guide. Outlander has proven once and for all that the myth that the "chase" is the most exciting part of romance is just that...a myth. Outlander has completely changed the landscape of the ways fandom will show up and obsess over the drama and love and sex within a marriage and I think it's a good guide for DC as the characters of Jamie and Claire do share some similarities in archetype to Superman and Lois Lane. It's just that it's time travel as opposed to superpowers. But it's the same archetypes of the noble/farmer/Lord warrior and the feisty civilian who doesn't use a sword/saves day with her brain. In fact, I think Henry Cavill himself actually noticed the similarity as he's a fan of the show. He called Jamie the "a kind of Scottish Superman."

Either way, I appreciate the discussion as it's fun to even talk about this stuff and share ideas. So thank you guys for letting me share my thoughts! I appreciate it.

[magha_regulus]

If Superman was in the Harry Potter world most people would think he'd be a Gryffindor but he'd really be a Hufflepuff.

[Prime]

I'm like Superman having romantic interests before Lois even though I don't want him to become some sort of Dick Grayson style ladies man (and surely the Captain Kirk of the DCU is Hal?). Developing and updating the characters of Maxima and Lori Lemaris would make Superman's supporting cast a lot richer (especially Maxima, who comes off like a generic male fantasy at times). But these are all ultimately distractions and temporary status quo changes to me, as I think Superman's romance with Lois Lane is one of the most integral aspects of the character.

Lol Hal is such a male whore. even then Superman should still be one of the most desirables male heroes. If no the #1.

[Kuwagaton]

I like Superman having different romantic partners. Silver Age Superman was pretty much a ladies man. Sure Superman could end up with Lois, but wait if he had a child with Maxima or one of the female furies and decides to raise him or her with Lois? That was the plan in the original JLU ending episodes. It was going to be revealed that one of the female furies gave birth to Superman's offspring. I think it was the one with the bandages.

Lois and Clark dated several other people before each other.

[Prime]

Lois and Clark dated several other people before each other.

She used to date Lex right? At least Post Crisis did.

[Francisco]

She used to date Lex right? At least Post Crisis did.

If I'm not mistaken Lex showed interest but Lois could see right through his cover the type of scum he really was and kept him at arm's length. Still the rumors of a romance between them persisted.

[spirit2011]

I always had this feeling that the higher ups at DC put Superman with Wonder Woman to make him look cooler and more of a masculine fantasy after Batman had those two qualities cornered and that T-shirt confirmed it. Restarting Superman without the marriage is fine by me but the way they almost completely ignored Lois in the New 52 was a massive mistake.

Make superman like Batman failed many times. Batman get's to be popular because of good stories and he also punch a lot of people, he is barely a sexual characters many times. He just let women wanting him and go punch guys, that is not my fantasy. Only half

Lois Lane quickly became an individual character like Robin or Black Canary. She could exist on her own and support her own series.

I think the reason some people want to see her gone now has been an indirect result of the marriage. When Lois existed as Superman's wife, a lot of readers stopped seeing her as the independent character who did not have to always be attached to Superman. And they didn't like her for that, because that's all she seemed to be.

That's one reason I want Lois not to be married to Superman, because I want her to exist. I don't want her to be killed off, so Superman can be free to date around. Making her the wife made her a target.

I also don't like pairing Wonder Woman with Superman. WW should be an independent character and not subordinate to Superman. If there was nothing romantic in their partnership that would be different.

But if Superman is always teamed with Batman and Wonder Woman, when does he get to team with other characters? I'd like to see Superman team-ups with a variety of DC characters. However, his appointment book is so full, I don't know when he'd have the time.

So your solution for Lois Lane not getting killed is undo the relationship with Superman?
When Karen Page died she wasn't even dating Matt, so this won't ever work.

The best way of avoid it is hiring good editors and writers to say to not use a bad trope and work the script. It could had saved amazing spider-man franchise.

More creativity> shocking value.

[Francisco]

Superman won't go crazy and become a tyrant if Lois dies/gets killed
Superman won't quit the mission for Lois or if Lois dies or if Lois asks him to quit. Lois wouldn't ever want him to quit or ask him to quit
Any story involved any of the scenarios before mentioned is automatically c.r.a.p. imo