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  1. #2566
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Every character gets exaggerated to an unlikable degree but I really like spicy, prickly, dry Batman. I grew up with late 80s hand me downs and so it was with the Alan Grant and Mike Barr takes.... almost Dredd like. I can see why his popularity skyrocketed (although mostly due to things outside the comics) because while the Bronze Age had great stories from legendary creators, Batman himself was pretty generic outside of maybe Conway, Moench, and Englehart's brighter spots. BTAS like Batman 89 took a route so brilliant it seemed obvious in making him basically a split personality with Bruce.
    Grant and Barr were ok. I feel like he still learned enough towards the Bronze age that point before the pendulum swung in the other direction.

    Heh, Englehart and Conway were actually my main exposures in the Bronze age. Along with the late stuff by Alan Moore and some stuff by Len Wein. I think BTAS lines up with that stuff a little more than it does Grant or Barr, which is why I'm drawn to it more. I can also see that making Batman more prickly was a fresh idea at the time, but I think it's worn out its welcome. It's not as interesting coming at it from a modern perspective, and things have since been flanderized into something worse.

  2. #2567
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Can a fucked up person become superman?
    Considering how messed up Clark himself is, yes.

    But, the thing that draw people towards him is that he neither seeks applause, redemption, not even happiness. He is the silent Knight. Despite the faults, tragedies, misery.. Etc. Bruce still has glimmer of compassion and love This was Before allstar superman did it,i believe.
    All-Star just repackaged old Silver Age stuff for a modern audience. Nothing in that story was new, thematically. And actually, back then, Bruce was much closer to Clark's morality and strength of character as well. He wasn't a broken wreck of a human, he was an actual hero, and didn't become the pile of crazy he is today until the 80's. And the DCAU, as someone else said, repackaged a lot of Clark's stuff for Batman.

    I have answered this already. I think currently, his flaws are superficial. But, that's my opinions. Let's take your statement as fact, Clark has flaws. As said, does rises above the flaws. He hasn't felt a fall because of that. He doesn't have demons because of those. You can't choose a flaw away.
    Oh, Clark's had plenty of falls. Exile, as you mention, For Tomorrow, Dominus, tons of others. He's had plenty of existential crisis's, questioned himself, his actions, the world around him, etc etc etc., just like everybody else. He's had big falls and small ones. But he mans up and doesn't let those bad days define him.

    What has clark suffered?
    Depending on the version? Dead planet, dead Kents, dead cousin, locked his "brother" in the Phantom Zone for a thousand years, killed the last remaining members of his own species, trapped millions of people (including his wife) in the Zone for over a year, has watched both Smallville and Metropolis be destroyed, he's had marriage problems, questioned his own sanity, died (a couple times actually), had to walk away from his dream life because it was just a dream and not real.....do I really need to go on? And of course, none of us can appreciate what it's like to be the last of your entire species, or have to deal with the unrelenting stress of hearing the whole world crying out for help and knowing you can't save them all.

    As for pain, bruce does let a pain define him. Like men do, like those who fall down that rabbit hole and can't pull themselves out. For those who don't have the strength. For those people can clark be inspiration? No.
    Depends on the person, I'd think. The scene in All-Star that you mention with Ragan, tons of people who suffer from depression and have attempted suicide have talked about how much that scene meant to them. There's letters and essays about how that scene prevented someone from killing themselves. I've been in a very similar boat, and even at my absolute worst Clark was an inspiration.

    He is broken toy and don't have the strength. Can clark reach them? Clark says "you are much stronger than you think". What if you ain't.
    Ask Ragan from All-Star. She didn't think she had the strength either.

    He reached me too. And I really didn't have the strength either, but the example of this fictional character still spoke to me.

    Nah! I meant being a lazy depressed bum. Can that guy be that and still be superman?no he can't. Because superman needs to be a saint figure to be the idol. If a person doesn't have the strength to get over laziness or depression(which is big one) he wouldn't be qualified to be superman.
    You put too much meaning behind the name. He's not a saint, and has never, ever, in his publication history lived up to that ideal. Clark has never even tried to. Sainthood isn't Superman, that's just what he means to other people. He's a dude who does his best to help others, regardless of his own problems. Nothing more, nothing less. Do good to others, and every man can be a Superman.
    Last edited by Ascended; 02-17-2020 at 06:30 PM.
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  3. #2568
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Grant and Barr were ok. I feel like he still learned enough towards the Bronze age that point before the pendulum swung in the other direction.

    Heh, Englehart and Conway were actually my main exposures in the Bronze age. Along with the late stuff by Alan Moore and some stuff by Len Wein. I think BTAS lines up with that stuff a little more than it does Grant or Barr, which is why I'm drawn to it more. I can also see that making Batman more prickly was a fresh idea at the time, but I think it's worn out its welcome. It's not as interesting coming at it from a modern perspective, and things have since been flanderized into something worse.
    Yeah I like a Batman who resembles a less child-like and conceited Damian... but it gets hard to describe in a time where writers have him hit his own teammates below the belt. It gets ridiculous, like being aggro with Dick and treating Alfred like he's not more than a butler. The most drastic versions of Superman get called out, like For Tomorrow, so although he gets less of a pass and popularity he ends up a much clearer character.

    Really I'm jealous though of those collections. I pre ordered the new Englehart hardcover and I can't wait. All of those prolific favorites have a high quality, 500 page hardcover or two. Morrison's stuff is easily accessible just about in full now, Shadow of the Bat, NML, and Legacy/Contagion cover massive chunks of the 90s... and there's so much more. There isn't even a Siegel's Greatest Hits.
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  4. #2569
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    I kind of understand where Injustice Superman is coming from. Not that I agree with everything he did.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  5. #2570
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    Why do some people say Superman is boring because he's too good and perfect, but I never hear them say Wonder Woman is the same way?
    Wonder Woman has dealt with those criticisms as well for decades.

    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    In regard to that JLU clip, a fan on a message board put it best for me when she said that the show's creators basically took Superman's story and molded into Amanda Waller's speech about Batman. But it's the JLU creators, so something like that is sort of to be expected...

    I sometimes wonder if you can make Clark a bit more appealing to the common fan if you made him just, but also a bit trollish and petty. I think Superman II and Man of Steel went a little too far in beating up a jerk or ruining another jerk's livelihood, but something along those lines, a Super practical jokester that only Superman could be. Like if he knew a crooked guy had money buried in the desert but the guy beat the rap, he'd dig up the ill-gotten gains and make an anonymous donation in that sum. Or he'd take all of that guy's fancy cars and flip them upside down. Or he'd steal all of that guy's hired goons' guns, melt them down, and make an insulting statue in his front lawn. He'd continue to harass the guy that way until that guy cracked and confessed to his guilt.
    People don't automatically lose their jobs just because their trucks were destroyed. Then again, I don't see why there was this much sympathy for a guy who was all but outright stated to be a serial sexual harasser.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 02-17-2020 at 09:11 PM.

  6. #2571
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    IDK, Clark (and Bruce) didn't seem to have an issue with Diana beheading Medusa, but freaked out about her killing Maxwell Lord. I think in their case, they considered Max to "count" more as a person than obviously inhuman Medusa.
    Medusa died as part of a fight to the death, Max didn't even put up a fight. That makes a big difference. Also I feel the need to point out the Medusa isn't any more monstery than Hawkgirl... Heck Medusa was actually born as a HUMAN.

  7. #2572
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Medusa died as part of a fight to the death, Max didn't even put up a fight. That makes a big difference. Also I feel the need to point out the Medusa isn't any more monstery than Hawkgirl... Heck Medusa was actually born as a HUMAN.
    Max had control over Superman's mind. He wasn't helpless and by his own admission could only be stopped if he was dead. And it has been demonstrated or outright stated that Bruce and Clark's rule doesn't apply to non-humans. The only time Clark regretted killing a non-human was the alternate universe Kryptonians in Byrne's run. He's killed Doomsday and Darkseid with no remorse and was willing to kill the Anti-Matter Braniac saying that his rule didn't extend to machines (I'm sure Red Tornado would love to hear that) only to back off and then let Ultraman do it because that Braniac was organic.

  8. #2573
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Wonder Woman has dealt with those criticisms as well for decades.



    .
    Superman should take Wonder Woman as a cautionary tale. TPTB at DC took that too perfect too good thus inhuman BS and made it the basis for essentially wrecking the character.

  9. #2574
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Max had control over Superman's mind. He wasn't helpless and by his own admission could only be stopped if he was dead. And it has been demonstrated or outright stated that Bruce and Clark's rule doesn't apply to non-humans. The only time Clark regretted killing a non-human was the alternate universe Kryptonians in Byrne's run. He's killed Doomsday and Darkseid with no remorse and was willing to kill the Anti-Matter Braniac saying that his rule didn't extend to machines (I'm sure Red Tornado would love to hear that) only to back off and then let Ultraman do it because that Braniac was organic.
    Well, not exactly. Max had to consciously exert control to affect Superman. Granted, knocking him unconscious wouldn't be a good long-term solution, but it would at least work temporarily. Also.... One point Batman made(which was surprisingly a good point) is that killing him was the only method MAX knew of.

    Also the whole incident has a "suicide by cop" vibe to it. Max was basically ASKING to die.

  10. #2575
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Well, not exactly. Max had to consciously exert control to affect Superman. Granted, knocking him unconscious wouldn't be a good long-term solution, but it would at least work temporarily. Also.... One point Batman made(which was surprisingly a good point) is that killing him was the only method MAX knew of.
    And yet Bruce didn't bring up any alternatives himself. Also, we saw just how dangerous Max on the loose was in Generation Lost when he made the entire planet forget he existed. That was what Diana was up against. Stopping him temporarily was not a smart decision.

    Also the whole incident has a "suicide by cop" vibe to it. Max was basically ASKING to die.
    "Suicide by cop" would imply that Max went through all this just to get Diana to kill him. Hell, the only reason her killing Max was so controversial in universe was because Brother Eye edited the footage to make her look like she'd killed an innocent man and no one knew what Max was really doing.

  11. #2576
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Well, not exactly. Max had to consciously exert control to affect Superman. Granted, knocking him unconscious wouldn't be a good long-term solution, but it would at least work temporarily. Also.... One point Batman made(which was surprisingly a good point) is that killing him was the only method MAX knew of.

    Also the whole incident has a "suicide by cop" vibe to it. Max was basically ASKING to die.
    It was still extremely hypocritical of Clark. At that point in continuity he had killed the Zoners, Imperiex, Henshaw, Darkseid, and maybe a few others. Or maybe he had tried to kill a few others, I forget. Even if his rule doesn't apply to beings like Darkseid and Imperiex (they're sentient beings, so that in and of itself would be hypocritical of Clark too), the Zoners were Kryptonian and Henshaw was (half) human. And some of those deaths were executions too, those people were helpless. Diana killed Max in combat. Max might not have thrown a physical punch, but she was fighting Max that whole time.

    But Clark's always been a bit of a hypocrite. Now, I'd rather Clark had defended Di, given his own history (and he defended Starboy's use of lethal force in the previous continuity) but Clark can be an asshat sometimes, so him giving Di some side-eye is okay by me. But the whole thing was blown way out of order; the Trinity never would've broken over something like the Max incident (Brother Eye, however....). That was just a sh*t excuse to justify Johns' Infinite Crisis.
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  12. #2577
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    It was still extremely hypocritical of Clark. At that point in continuity he had killed the Zoners, Imperiex, Henshaw, Darkseid, and maybe a few others. Or maybe he had tried to kill a few others, I forget. Even if his rule doesn't apply to beings like Darkseid and Imperiex (they're sentient beings, so that in and of itself would be hypocritical of Clark too), the Zoners were Kryptonian and Henshaw was (half) human. And some of those deaths were executions too, those people were helpless. Diana killed Max in combat. Max might not have thrown a physical punch, but she was fighting Max that whole time.

    But Clark's always been a bit of a hypocrite. Now, I'd rather Clark had defended Di, given his own history (and he defended Starboy's use of lethal force in the previous continuity) but Clark can be an asshat sometimes, so him giving Di some side-eye is okay by me. But the whole thing was blown way out of order; the Trinity never would've broken over something like the Max incident (Brother Eye, however....). That was just a sh*t excuse to justify Johns' Infinite Crisis.
    Superman covering up the League's mind wipes too if Infinite Crisis hadn't ignored that in favor of Clark not being "inspirational enough".

  13. #2578
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    As someone who suffered through depression, and even today has often bouts of melancholia, I absolutely hate the Regan scene in All-Star.It's just a pathetic attempt to show how Superman is supposedly compassionate and ready to help, without ever addressing the root cause of her depression and suicidal thoughts, nor dealing with the society which creates such suffering in the first place.

    But All-Star Superman is an all-around abomination to me. It's the one comics I read that I wish I had never even knew existed. It was physically painful to read, depicted the most loathsome and disgusting Superman ever and cemented my opinion of the mainstream Superman : an hypocritical Conservative who hoards knowledge, doesn't try to change the world and his just chum with the powerful peoples of the Western World.

    yeah. I hate All-Star Superman.

  14. #2579
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Considering how messed up Clark himself is, yes.



    All-Star just repackaged old Silver Age stuff for a modern audience. Nothing in that story was new, thematically. And actually, back then, Bruce was much closer to Clark's morality and strength of character as well. He wasn't a broken wreck of a human, he was an actual hero, and didn't become the pile of crazy he is today until the 80's. And the DCAU, as someone else said, repackaged a lot of Clark's stuff for Batman.



    Oh, Clark's had plenty of falls. Exile, as you mention, For Tomorrow, Dominus, tons of others. He's had plenty of existential crisis's, questioned himself, his actions, the world around him, etc etc etc., just like everybody else. He's had big falls and small ones. But he mans up and doesn't let those bad days define him.



    Depending on the version? Dead planet, dead Kents, dead cousin, locked his "brother" in the Phantom Zone for a thousand years, killed the last remaining members of his own species, trapped millions of people (including his wife) in the Zone for over a year, has watched both Smallville and Metropolis be destroyed, he's had marriage problems, questioned his own sanity, died (a couple times actually), had to walk away from his dream life because it was just a dream and not real.....do I really need to go on? And of course, none of us can appreciate what it's like to be the last of your entire species, or have to deal with the unrelenting stress of hearing the whole world crying out for help and knowing you can't save them all.



    Depends on the person, I'd think. The scene in All-Star that you mention with Ragan, tons of people who suffer from depression and have attempted suicide have talked about how much that scene meant to them. There's letters and essays about how that scene prevented someone from killing themselves. I've been in a very similar boat, and even at my absolute worst Clark was an inspiration.



    Ask Ragan from All-Star. She didn't think she had the strength either.

    He reached me too. And I really didn't have the strength either, but the example of this fictional character still spoke to me.



    You put too much meaning behind the name. He's not a saint, and has never, ever, in his publication history lived up to that ideal. Clark has never even tried to. Sainthood isn't Superman, that's just what he means to other people. He's a dude who does his best to help others, regardless of his own problems. Nothing more, nothing less. Do good to others, and every man can be a Superman.
    Yeah! I don't think clark has that much issues,comparetive to other guys spidey, batz, arrow.. Etc. Even barry the everyman is forced to have issues. Clark is going the other way.

    Dude, what are you talking about? That scene works because bruce is as much of broken wreck. Ace can read minds. She knows it. She doesn't want anything to do with "normal" people. She is f-d up, she was alone. Bruce was f-d up, he was alone. They came together. That was the point of the grand inquisitor. What's clark going to do in that instance? He can't understand her. He was loved. He didn't become a weapon. Bruce did. Even if clark goes there with his platitudes it would mean nothing. This is why clark need shutup policy. More action less speech.

    For tomorrow doesn't work(it's saint figure to the t). Even exile is him becoming one as said. Clark does the "no kill" code for the right reasons. While, bruce doesn't he is. For its a line that keeps him from insanity. That's discipline against a flaw i am talking about.How many people are truly good in this world. Compare that to the other. The other needs help too. Clark is soo much above in the ladder for morality that other can't climb up. With bruce, we can climb a couple of steps and we are there. It's harder, but it's possible. If superman has condemned those who can't make the climb. Then, bruce is there. And he isn't looking to be a role model, Which clark is made out to be.From the stories i have read, Only alan moore and his creators has successfully dissected Clark's psyche as an immigrant and as a vigilante. Others try waaaay too hard.

    As said, dead planets mean less. Clark isn't as personally connected, even if he was kal not clark. Mon el, Really?The guy barely sticks around in continuity same as the many incidents you mentioned,let alone as Clark's greatest regrets. Neither is it an active pursuit . Dead kents was good. But, that only brought him loneliness not regrets. Clark couldn't do anything about death. Again, suffering requires you to sin. Bruce sins just by sometimes involuntarily enjoying the beat down he delivers. He is like hawkeye in that regard. Here, hawkeye is the girl

    Here silence is deafening, In that split second when you take down the enemy she feels a tinge of satisfaction and pride. It's f-d up, she has to live with it. But, she does. Clark will never feel that. Because he so far above that. Bruce would and then regret it. Live with it and try to curb it. Many times unsuccessfully. Because it's process and a discipline. You do regress.Hawkeye is'nt bad. She is just human. I am not saying clark doesn't have regrets. Neither to force some on the character. Regrets are one thing and dark desires are another. Clark doesn't feel these dark desires. He has been absolved of the devil. He is unattainable for man. For bruce or peter or arrow the devil live with them. They aren't unattainable.

    In the grand inquisitor, grand inquisitor was through asking forgivness for falling short or weakness .Instead decided to unite all the weak ones for community(gotham is the epicenter of all the weak people). He decides to reign in hell. Create strength from weakness to build a tower of babel. The guys with high moral standards up above might have strike him down or condemn him. But, He won't quit. Because quiting means purposelessness. That is worse than death for a human.

    Sure, it does. I am not denying that. But, that scene has a context. It's not just that clark saves suicidal girl. He knows what she's going through. She is him at that moment. He is also telling himself that. Writers regularly forget that part. Shove the messiah. Case in and point the same scene in grounded. He sounds ridiculous in that because he is an observer. He did make a name for himself. He has the capacity. She doesn't. Sure, clark gave her better goal. But, she is only in that position because she wanted to force herself to catch an unattainable goal. Setting yourself an attainable goal first is better than trying aim for something high and falling on the ass then quitting. Yeah! Majority do quit.For those people, bruce is faaar better option.

    She didn't think she had the strength. She didn't .She might have committed suicide herself. As said, clark works there because clark is mirror for regan. She can see herself in him. He isn't unattainable there. If clark wasn't going through mortality. He wouldn't be able to. Those words will be hollow. As said, man's world where god/saint is dead. His words are meaningless. Only a man's word has meaning. See the problem with superman is that he is put up as a human. Yet, his flaws are nothing but paper thin and that too something to get out of the way.His speeches ring hollow. Writers have him be removed from personal desires both good and bad. Even his dream is saintly. " a world where dignity, honor and respect are values we all share". He doesn't have shred of selfishness. He doesn't say, "one of these days, i would like to be accepted by everyone ". Alan moore truly touched on the selfishness in clark. His true desires like acceptance, familial love, even hypocrisy ... Etc. Jerry siegel does wonderfull job with clark hypocrisy regarding lois's rejections. What i am saying is that, The emphasise is different. A saint says "world peace and food in my belly". A man says"food in my belly and world peace". Bruce is clear cut, he just wants to be happy. He wants a world where what happened to him doesn't happen to anyone else. It has a selfishness to it even though it is also saintly. He wants to defeat the event of the shooting itself for himself .

    You might ask what would happen if the emphasis isn't saintly and clark achieves his selfish desires. Case in and point, rebirth. Well,

    "A man's dreams never ends".

    He would find a next one. One piece and luffy does a better job with the theme of dreams. Than superman with all his yammering about dreams and desires . Btw, luffy and crew all embrace the desires like greed, gluttony, perversion, pride, lust.. Etc. They are all in full display. They are proud of their weakness and isn't seeking forgiveness from no god that might exist and might have created them that way in the first place. Remember franky was the batman of water 7.He reformed a bunch thugs and lowlife. Became their leaders.lceberg couldn't do that.

    But, writers do try to put him up as the saintly example more than what you described . Their emphasis is on that. Superman audience does want it. Otherwise, people wouldn't have had such trouble accepting morrison's superman. Besides, the problem isn't you can be superman if you do good to others. It's that you can't be a superman if you are prone to take selfish actions or moral weakness. Otherwise lex wouldn't be a villain. Just someone that needs to get better. You have to reach the pinnacle of altruism. Well, majority cannot reach that. They need an idol too.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-18-2020 at 02:04 AM.

  15. #2580
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    As someone who suffered through depression, and even today has often bouts of melancholia, I absolutely hate the Regan scene in All-Star.It's just a pathetic attempt to show how Superman is supposedly compassionate and ready to help, without ever addressing the root cause of her depression and suicidal thoughts, nor dealing with the society which creates such suffering in the first place.

    But All-Star Superman is an all-around abomination to me. It's the one comics I read that I wish I had never even knew existed. It was physically painful to read, depicted the most loathsome and disgusting Superman ever and cemented my opinion of the mainstream Superman : an hypocritical Conservative who hoards knowledge, doesn't try to change the world and his just chum with the powerful peoples of the Western World.

    yeah. I hate All-Star Superman.
    Precisely, the point. What if you aren't strong enough?a saintly superman would absolutely be rubbing things the wrong way. Atleast, in that story clark is going through the same thing she does.

    Edit and my point-superman needs to be tangible for people to attain. He shouldn't written trying to be an example. If he does becomes one that's great. But, otherwise no. Superman should be a symbol like the strawhat. Clark should be doing his own thing. Which is doing the right thing for its own sake and trying to live upto ideals that is unattainable for him. You know, truth, justice, freedom, dreams.. Etc. In trying to be an example he becomes a saint. In doing so he seizes to be a good attainable example for many. So, counter productive.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-18-2020 at 02:15 AM.

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