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  1. #2611
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBally View Post
    Don't know how controversial this opinion is but I felt both Curt Swan's art and Elliott S! Maggin's writing complimented each other so well, I dare say their dynamic almost rivals that of Siegel and Shuster themselves when it comes to Superman.
    I'm with you there. Swan and Maggin are amazing. In fact as far as controversial goes... I rank them higher than Siegel and Shuster by a lot. I honestly see S&S as designing a very adequate blueprint that the people who came after them turned into a true icon. Golden Age supes does nothing for me... Silver age and on is where he's at

  2. #2612
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    If praising Curt Swan and Maggin is controversial then it's time to put the chairs on the tables and close shop, boys. Time to find a new planet to live on where civilization hasn't fallen.

  3. #2613
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I find this is an issue with Clark quite often. He's a nuanced character with a lot of layers and depth, and not all those layers are bright and perfect and shiny. But he doesn't have big obvious flaws tacked onto him like most characters. Instead of "alcoholic" or whatever loud, obnoxious flaw you want to point at, Clark's are quiet, and harder to see past the "S" shield. His hypocrisy, his habitual lying, his arrogance.....this stuff doesn't stand out like Tony Stark breaking into a cold sweat if he even smells a beer, yknow?

    And of course, Clark's legend and image get in the way. A lot of people look at Batman and assume he's a hero right? Even though he's a huge asshole, a control freak, and abusive, people see a hero and subconsciously assume his actions are justified. Likewise, Clark's less-than-desirable traits often get ignored. He's Superman after all, so he can't be wrong right?
    It isn't that his flaws aren't obvious. It's quiet obvious. His flaws never bridge a connection to a larger audience because writer brush it aside do not use it as a struggle which clark keeps having to fight. The real never ending battle for truth. They want their saint or boyscout or whatever

    1. he dreams of a perfect life with a gal and a family. On a planet where he wouldn't be considered outsider. While in reality he keeps everyone at arms bay including the girl he loves and lies to.Then he wonders and cries about, why lois lane prefers superman who is honest, over clark kent the persona which is a big sham. He moans about his "solitude" . The entire persona makes it clear that the real clark kent who is called superman is bloody fraud. He himself is the reason he alone.
    2. As said, when he goes on around yammering about hopes and dream with a bullet proof skin. Sprouting or lecturing ideas loudly without understanding what people go through. (this is late silverage thing and something that became insufferable in postcrisis)
    3. He is vigilante. Who doesn't give a damn about laws or rules,if it is harmful to people. He isn't accountable. Neither does he answer to any authority. He is beast who breaks chains.
    4. He was a strongman who used to love a challenge.
    5. He has anger issues. Can get pissed off and be a tad bit excessive. Treat it like it is.
    6. Even, the family thing



    These are all his flaws. All things i get from books. But, clark is always given a pass. It isn't even through legitimate means. But, instead of making those apparent. Most writers don't bother tackling them. They just write it of so that they get an example, a saint, a boyscout for others.
    This is what normally happens. When someone points out how easy it is for clark to be brave because of the bulletproof skin and muscles made out of hotair from the sun that constantly gets stronger. His nonsensical answer is "i fight people stronger than me, all the time. You can do the same". Blah! Well good for him. But it ain't a bloody struggle for him to stay alive all the time. This is why superman is hard for many to connect with. Writing like this. He should have just stayed quiet and not proclaim anything. Atleast, look guilty or say quietly i do fight stronger people. But, Not as an accomplishment.
    clark being shitty about rejection

    They shift the blame like in the first instance to lois, to the world.. Etc. Which is absolute garbage . If you want connections it is your duty reach out,not of the others. Start treating clark kent for the fraud he is with his fake persona. Show clark as the wrong one. Don't go "the lois is just superficial and doesn't see clark" nonsense. Yes, there is some truth and lois is flawed but that isn't why clark is rejected. Clark's fortress of solitude is his own making both literally and figuratively.

    The yammering nonsense with bullet proof skin ala postcrisis . Nobody gives it back to him for that. I would love to see someone from his own corner go upto him and say "shut f--k up superman!!!If you want to save us, then save us. Don't pretend like you have the right to lecture me, when you don't know what it's like being me. do what you want. But,don't you dare lecture us from up there on mount olympus". Have him actually start to shut up, not try to be some example for others.

    He needs to be critiqued.Stop caricaturirising his philosophical adversaries and people who point out his flaws as "just bad guy" like sam lane who calls him out on being a beast without chains, Manchester black regarding broken system causing suffering superman even with power not doing anything but furthering it instead, Arion on a discussion about his choices in saving people and his thought processes.. Etc be genuine about these things. Make it compelling so that people find it engaging. Stop brushing things under the carpet.

    Start treating superman like a vigilante. He is. Sure, have daily planet as pro superman. But, there needs to be something of a reverse which biased like the former but has a point. My idea would be a daily star. There should be a tension between superman and police. There should be times when police does go after him. It should be an uneasy alliance with superman being friends with non-corrupt ones like turpin or sawyer. Superman isn't an ally of the law, only the people. If he is being touted as a brand for charities as stuff. Have him face the superficialness of that world.At worst, clark becomes bigger darkseid who destorys everything with his contempt for control. Clark keeps some chains and learns to tame himself. Have this be a real struggle with the flaw.

    Have him challenge himself to escape the existential boredom and give him a purposes. Yes, clark would always be on the look out for a purpose or a goal. Because otherwise an immortal guy like him would surely fall into the abyss of apathy. Him unlike vandal savage devotes himself to bettering himself instead of taking over the world.Have this be an actual struggle. If he gets obsessed he becomes brainiac.

    Superman has fangs,for better or for worse. Have him actually struggle with his fangs. Have hims struggle with his anger and excesses. Make it sympathetic so that people can actually understand. Not like the justice league cartoons where he gets passive aggressive without warnings. Stop treating like those fangs don't exist. Many writers do this. Especially if batman is in the room. Superman would absolutely get pissed if you tug on his cape for too long.Stop treating him like puppy,when he is dangerous. All great men are.

    Start blaming clark as a family man. If he messes things up with mon el or chris or conner or kara or jon. It is absolutely his fault. Give him shit for it. Don't pretend like he is the victim, when he is not the one who suffered. If mon el gets stuck in phantom zone by Clark's hand. It is absolutely on his hands.Stop erasing family so that he can be absolved. If clark fails to go after chris it is his fault. If clark doesn't accept conner or if jon gets stuck in a volcano in space, he is being shitty. Have him actually try to redeem himself. Don't brush it aside. This goes beyond just his kids to people that look upto him like dick, wally, now damian(not exactly. But those two have gotten closer) .. Etc. For instance, when goku was being shitty piccolo gave him hell for it. Goku actually had to redeem himself by sacrificing himself for his child. Start a treating a shitty dad like clark as the shitty dad. Have him actually take responsibility or atleast bring it up.

    The lost children


    To add to the conversation why batman is attractive to people and why people choose him as an example over clark.

    Clark is always perpetuating a saint image and trying to set an example. He fails. Bruce doesn't try and succeeds.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-20-2020 at 12:13 AM.

  4. #2614
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBally View Post
    Don't know how controversial this opinion is but I felt both Curt Swan's art and Elliott S! Maggin's writing complimented each other so well, I dare say their dynamic almost rivals that of Siegel and Shuster themselves when it comes to Superman.
    I think the best for Swan in general and Swanderson in particular was Dorfman, but everything clicked when Swan had Maggin and Oksner.

    Poor Shuster... I don't think he ever got a chance to become good as an artist. In fairness, can you imagine if Kirby stopped with superheroes when they first fizzled out? Shuster will always be a legend as a co creator, but he and Siegel were way before Jerry's prime when Superman first came about.
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  5. #2615
    Fantastic Member magha_regulus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    It isn't that his flaws aren't obvious. It's quiet obvious. His flaws never bridge a connection to a larger audience because writer brush it aside do not use it as a struggle which clark keeps having to fight. The real never ending battle for truth. They want their saint or boyscout or whatever

    1. he dreams of a perfect life with a gal and a family. On a planet where he wouldn't be considered outsider. While in reality he keeps everyone at arms bay including the girl he loves and lies to.Then he wonders and cries about, why lois lane prefers superman who is honest, over clark kent the persona which is a big sham. He moans about his "solitude" . The entire persona makes it clear that the real clark kent who is called superman is bloody fraud. He himself is the reason he alone.
    2. As said, when he goes on around yammering about hopes and dream with a bullet proof skin. Sprouting or lecturing ideas loudly without understanding what people go through. (this is late silverage thing and something that became insufferable in postcrisis)
    3. He is vigilante. Who doesn't give a damn about laws or rules,if it is harmful to people. He isn't accountable. Neither does he answer to any authority. He is beast who breaks chains.
    4. He was a strongman who used to love a challenge.
    5. He has anger issues. Can get pissed off and be a tad bit excessive. Treat it like it is.
    6. Even, the family thing



    These are all his flaws. All things i get from books. But, clark is always given a pass. It isn't even through legitimate means. But, instead of making those apparent. Most writers don't bother tackling them. They just write it of so that they get an example, a saint, a boyscout for others.
    This is what normally happens. When someone points out how easy it is for clark to be brave because of the bulletproof skin and muscles made out of hotair from the sun that constantly gets stronger. His nonsensical answer is "i fight people stronger than me, all the time. You can do the same". Blah! Well good for him. But it ain't a bloody struggle for him to stay alive all the time. This is why superman is hard for many to connect with. Writing like this. He should have just stayed quiet and not proclaim anything. Atleast, look guilty or say quietly i do fight stronger people. But, Not as an accomplishment.
    clark being shitty about rejection

    They shift the blame like in the first instance to lois, to the world.. Etc. Which is absolute garbage . If you want connections it is your duty reach out,not of the others. Start treating clark kent for the fraud he is with his fake persona. Show clark as the wrong one. Don't go "the lois is just superficial and doesn't see clark" nonsense. Yes, there is some truth and lois is flawed but that isn't why clark is rejected. Clark's fortress of solitude is his own making both literally and figuratively.

    The yammering nonsense with bullet proof skin ala postcrisis . Nobody gives it back to him for that. I would love to see someone from his own corner go upto him and say "shut f--k up superman!!!If you want to save us, then save us. Don't pretend like you have the right to lecture me, when you don't know what it's like being me. do what you want. But,don't you dare lecture us from up there on mount olympus". Have him actually start to shut up, not try to be some example for others.

    He needs to be critiqued.Stop caricaturirising his philosophical adversaries and people who point out his flaws as "just bad guy" like sam lane who calls him out on being a beast without chains, Manchester black regarding broken system causing suffering superman even with power not doing anything but furthering it instead, Arion on a discussion about his choices in saving people and his thought processes.. Etc be genuine about these things. Make it compelling so that people find it engaging. Stop brushing things under the carpet.

    Start treating superman like a vigilante. He is. Sure, have daily planet as pro superman. But, there needs to be something of a reverse which biased like the former but has a point. My idea would be a daily star. There should be a tension between superman and police. There should be times when police does go after him. It should be an uneasy alliance with superman being friends with non-corrupt ones like turpin or sawyer. Superman isn't an ally of the law, only the people. If he is being touted as a brand for charities as stuff. Have him face the superficialness of that world.At worst, clark becomes bigger darkseid who destorys everything with his contempt for control. Clark keeps some chains and learns to tame himself. Have this be a real struggle with the flaw.

    Have him challenge himself to escape the existential boredom and give him a purposes. Yes, clark would always be on the look out for a purpose or a goal. Because otherwise an immortal guy like him would surely fall into the abyss of apathy. Him unlike vandal savage devotes himself to bettering himself instead of taking over the world.Have this be an actual struggle. If he gets obsessed he becomes brainiac.

    Superman has fangs,for better or for worse. Have him actually struggle with his fangs. Have hims struggle with his anger and excesses. Make it sympathetic so that people can actually understand. Not like the justice league cartoons where he gets passive aggressive without warnings. Stop treating like those fangs don't exist. Many writers do this. Especially if batman is in the room. Superman would absolutely get pissed if you tug on his cape for too long.Stop treating him like puppy,when he is dangerous. All great men are.

    Start blaming clark as a family man. If he messes things up with mon el or chris or conner or kara or jon. It is absolutely his fault. Give him shit for it. Don't pretend like he is the victim, when he is not the one who suffered. If mon el gets stuck in phantom zone by Clark's hand. It is absolutely on his hands.Stop erasing family so that he can be absolved. If clark fails to go after chris it is his fault. If clark doesn't accept conner or if jon gets stuck in a volcano in space, he is being shitty. Have him actually try to redeem himself. Don't brush it aside. This goes beyond just his kids to people that look upto him like dick, wally, now damian(not exactly. But those two have gotten closer) .. Etc. For instance, when goku was being shitty piccolo gave him hell for it. Goku actually had to redeem himself by sacrificing himself for his child. Start a treating a shitty dad like clark as the shitty dad. Have him actually take responsibility or atleast bring it up.

    The lost children


    To add to the conversation why batman is attractive to people and why people choose him as an example over clark.

    Clark is always perpetuating a saint image and trying to set an example. He fails. Bruce doesn't try and succeeds.
    This post made me clap!!! You get it!

  6. #2616
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    The problems Superman has of being "ineffective" are entirely manufactured. Superman is a fictional character, he can be as effective or ineffective as a creator wants. In order to make his stories relatable and appear in some semblance of a reality we recognize, he can't just redistribute wealth with his bare hands or clean the planet up in a night. To make matters worse, his narrative also has to fit into the larger shared universe of other DC characters. So he can never truly create the world that he would.

    That said, you don't have to acknowledge any of these problems to tell a good story. Once you do acknowledge them, the emperor just doesn't have any clothes ya know?

    Batman doesn't appeal to people because he's flawed or scary or whatever, Batman is just really damn cool. He's James Bond, Sherlock Holmes, Zorro, and Dracula all mixed into one dude. Comparing Superman to Batman is another manufactured problem. Both guys would have entirely different scales they operate on. Superman is more of a public figure, and champion of the people than an outright vigilante.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 02-20-2020 at 08:02 AM.

  7. #2617
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    My controversial opinion- Before his recent reveal neither Clark nor Lois should have been celebrities. They should be local beat reporters whose names might be known in Metropolis, but who 99% of the people in the DCU have never heard of. Making them world famous Pulitzer Prize winners mentioned in the same breath with Edward R Murrow, Woodward & Bernstein, Barbara Walters, or Anderson Cooper is unnecessary.

  8. #2618
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    My controversial opinion- Before his recent reveal neither Clark nor Lois should have been celebrities. They should be local beat reporters whose names might be known in Metropolis, but who 99% of the people in the DCU have never heard of. Making them world famous Pulitzer Prize winners mentioned in the same breath with Edward R Murrow, Woodward & Bernstein, Barbara Walters, or Anderson Cooper is unnecessary.
    Yeah I hate the need to make everyone the best at everything. Batman can't just be a highly skilled detective, he's gotta be the smartest man on Earth. Lois Lane can't just be a journalist, she's gotta somehow be a rockstar reporter in a dying industry.

    It's so much less interesting.

  9. #2619
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Clark is always perpetuating a saint image and trying to set an example. He fails. Bruce doesn't try and succeeds.
    None of this really discounts what I'm saying; Clark is just as flawed and broken as the rest of them, he just doesn't bitch and whine about it like Bruce and some of the others do. He gets off his ass and does the job because it needs to be done, not because he's trying to make himself feel better. I find that far more interesting and inspiring than some emo dude who has let his weakness define him, disguised as strength. If Batman inspires you, cool. Take your inspiration where you can. But I'll look to the character who tries to rise above his worst impulses instead of the guy who's ruled by them. And even if someone were one of those "weak people" you talk about who can't match Clark's example....is that a reason not to even try?
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  10. #2620
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    None of this really discounts what I'm saying; Clark is just as flawed and broken as the rest of them, he just doesn't bitch and whine about it like Bruce and some of the others do. He gets off his ass and does the job because it needs to be done, not because he's trying to make himself feel better. I find that far more interesting and inspiring than some emo dude who has let his weakness define him, disguised as strength. If Batman inspires you, cool. Take your inspiration where you can. But I'll look to the character who tries to rise above his worst impulses instead of the guy who's ruled by them. And even if someone were one of those "weak people" you talk about who can't match Clark's example....is that a reason not to even try?
    Actually, he does and more. He whines more than bruce could ever. When bruce whines its usually kept to himself. When clark whines which is all the damn time, he does it loudly. He doesn't whine about lois's rejection or people not following his stupid no death penalty nonsense in a corner. He makes sure that everyone knows that he is disappointed or something. Clark hasn't been a man of action since silverage. He is the man of speeches.

    Batman doesn't inspire me. I am just trying dissect why the disconnect . "Trying" is the keyword(in your reply and mine) . For that to happen flaws need to be acknowledged and not ignored or brushed under. He needs to have struggles with it, it is a disciple. He doesn't, he denys them and writers agree with it.They don't take neutral stand or negative stand against it. They brush it aside. Clark doesn't connect with people because of this. When writers start agreeing with the flaws of the character and starts to show them of as quality or brush them under . People feel the character has no shadow. Which makes people uneasy and actively root against him.

    for people, superman is the guy who has said he doesn't need a shadow or doesn't have one(writers brush Clark's flaws under the carpet). The opposite of the peter pan archetype.when he is supposed to be trying catch it and try to tame it. Those who make such statements are regarded as ignorant or naive by people generally .hence, people feel they(superman included) aren't really good. Just faking good or being hollow dummy/robot. The reasons for the disconnect . And in their subconscious mind they know such ignorance has a heavy price to pay, from their own experience. The shadow realising vulnerability takes over. Hence, all the supermen goes bad stories. You know, its like in harry potter "he who shall not be named is not back". Harry tames that by calling voldemort by name. Harry has a shadow too (a part of voldemort).

    If we ask a superman fan why clark is good?they will tell you because that's how he was raised. When the answer should be he confronts the shadow and tames its unrulyness. Because morality is a choice and discipline .That is never the answer for superman . Which furthers my point. Clark never confronts the shadow. That is the reason why he has a weaker rogues gallery. Rogues are those who have fallen to the same shadow and into the abyss. Superman's writers denies the very existence of the shadow. So, how can clark have connection to his villains . As in the page above with batman. I have also connected clarks flaws and his rogues in the post above. Clark has the capacity to become brainiac, darkseid, lex, parasite, vandal savage.. Etc.

    The idea of clark accusing bruce of being frightening points to the fact that superman has forgotten that he is frightening. His writers have as well. Clark should never forget that. Because if he does. He is denying his very nature.


    Look at lois's and that guys reaction. They are horrified. Clark acknowledges and embraces that. He realises that and tries to mitigate that.He goes to lois and says "you need'nt be afraid of me. I won't harm you". It is his first word to lois. That is the basic concept of the character. He can be a gun or a superman. He has both the potential. He has a shadow. He tries to catch it. He is not like, " guh! i am not scary. So you shouldn't be too" or "gee! I am too harmless to be a gun or a real superman" . You know what many current writers will do with this scene,To rid clark of his shadow. They will never allow clark to smash the car. They wouldn't show a horrified lois or bad guys. Look at the layout of the panel, Half of it is in darkness and clark comes out of it towards lois(i don't know if it's intentional) .

    Yes, attainable goals are better than unattainable ones. That is the opposite of not trying.Superman just leaves most in despair. He is like the well-prison in dark knight rises. Especially, for people who have tendency to quit. There are lots of people like that. I cannot be rid of my shadows. He is part of me as much as my hand or leg or my mind. I can only hope to tame it and in time we become truly one. To get to the top of the well. I need to take a first step and approach it one step at a time. Bruce is that step, that most could take.And in time people can maybe actually attain the top.


    "Home, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this prison is the worst hell on earth... Hope. Every man who has ventured here over the centuries has looked up to the light and imagined climbing to freedom. So easy... So simple... And like shipwrecked men turning to sea water from uncontrollable thirst, many have died trying. I learned here that there can be no true despair without hope. So, as I terrorize Gotham, I will feed its people hope to poison their souls. I will let them believe they can survive so that you can watch them clamoring over each other to "stay in the sun." You can watch me torture an entire city and when you have truly understood the depth of your failure, we will fulfill Ra's al Ghul's destiny... We will destroy Gotham and then, when it is done and Gotham is ashes, then you have my permission to die."

    When superman fights batman, his shadows leave him. They become bruce's ally.Together they punish the man who denied their very existence and put up himself as an idol. Batman always wins, because that's what people want.

    My points are simple, if he isn't a saint then he has devastating flaws. Writers need to acknowledge them, treat them like it is. Then maybe he can be an example to people. Otherwise, a saint with no shadow or shadows brushed under trying to lecture people isn't going to get people interested. They would choose something they can attain.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-23-2020 at 02:08 AM.

  11. #2621
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    But I'll look to the character who tries to rise above his worst impulses instead of the guy who's ruled by them
    True. That's kinda the whole point of Superman. The beacon of hope, the ideal.

    And concerning the pseudo argument "such a perfect charater doesn't interest people", well, he has been around for more than 80 years. I think it says all there is to say.

  12. #2622
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    True. That's kinda the whole point of Superman. The beacon of hope, the ideal.

    And concerning the pseudo argument "such a perfect charater doesn't interest people", well, he has been around for more than 80 years. I think it says all there is to say.
    For eighty years, the character hasn't been the same. Unlike batman, superman has massive differences between various versions. Batman only has a goofy adam west version. Even that isn't farfetched as far as characterisation goes.

  13. #2623
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Superman was frightening when there weren't Dominators or Predators, just a million to one chance that a strongman would be able to lift a car overhead. It doesn't necessarily make him different in that context though, the context itself is usually what's different. Understanding the core character really doesn't take more effort than squaring the Bob Haney Batman to Brubaker, or the Adam West version with Christian Bale. Batman's got two box office juggernauts, one where he smirked as he killed and one where he was against killing to the point that the villain made it a mission to get him to do so.

    I think the most valid comparison anyway should be Doc Savage, one of the only characters that might come up as an actual influence on Superman's creation. The rest are shades of copycat.
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  14. #2624
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    For eighty years, the character hasn't been the same. Unlike batman, superman has massive differences between various versions. Batman only has a goofy adam west version. Even that isn't farfetched as far as characterisation goes.
    Eh, I wouldn't say that. Sure, there is that, but then there's BatJerk, whose most notable years have been the last 3-4. Grim dark and edgy of the post-killing joke and DKR. And of course, the more human, less jerkish, but not goofy, of the pre-Jason Todd death era.

  15. #2625
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Eh, I wouldn't say that. Sure, there is that, but then there's BatJerk, whose most notable years have been the last 3-4. Grim dark and edgy of the post-killing joke and DKR. And of course, the more human, less jerkish, but not goofy, of the pre-Jason Todd death era.
    There's at least like two or three post-Crisis takes on Batman. Immediately post-Crisis he wasn't the emotionally crippled dick he's been since the mid-2000's, it took a while for the DKR's take to settle in. Mainly until fans of DKR's started becoming writers. There's Morrison's BatGod take. That's when you sort of see the paranoia settle in. You can pretty distinctly separate King's take out from Snyder's. And of course the Bronze and Silver age versions were as vastly different as anything. And the movie versions are all pretty different.

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