Controversial Superman Opinions

[Johnny Thunders!]

His book Powers is so good. His character Christian Walker is such a great, gritty Superman type. I'm not saying I want to see Clark the same way, but that's the Bendis high bar for me.

[marhawkman]

I feel like more can be done with Supergirl but I just don't know what

Maybe write a mini explaining why Kingdom Come apparently has a Supergirl who is half-Coluan, half-Kryptonian?

[Iopy]

I feel like more can be done with Supergirl but I just don't know what

Most comics understand that you need a consistent setting, sense of place, and supporting characters. Superman has Metropolis and Lois, Jimmy, Perry, and many more. Batman has Gotham, the Batcave, Robin and Alfred. Wonder Woman has the Themyscira and the Amazons. Even the Supergirl TV show figured out it needed these things. Supergirl as a comic book never does, they insist on keeping her bouncing from place to place like a tumbleweed, and even when they tell stories that seem to have some of that it’s all gone a year later as if it never happened. The book never feels grounded or involving because it’s always being recreated by a new writer.

That would be a great place ro start. Treat the book like it’s a place to tell the continuing adventures of the title character instead of improv theater for each new creative team.

[Robanker]

I dunno, Clark mellowing out always made sense to me because it was akin to when you get your first real taste of the reality that power can corrupt.

Yes, he can force people to be good to one another, but then are they changed or are they afraid? You can absolutely be a tyrant to your child and make sure they never step out of line, but then you're doing a whole lot of harm to protect some lofty ideal of good that you may or may not share with the world.

I think that once he started busting heads and seeing that people were afraid of him one day moving his moral goalposts, he chilled out a bit. It's a reality check.

I don't believe he'd ever actually go tyrannical (and especially not because Lois died), but it just made sense that someone raised in poverty would not want to become the kind of person who can force might making right if he saw another option. Ultimately it's superhero comics and punching is how we solve our problems, but it makes sense that Superman started approaching things a bit more carefully as he got older.

That said, he can get way too close to Picard and waffles way too hard. There's a happy medium for me. He can't be a doormat simply because we need him to stay some saint.

[rpmaluki]

I prefer a happy middle, starting off as a hard head busting heads and growing with experience, to know how to deal with each situation as it comes (petty theft vs organised crime vs world ending threats). Some situations are talk first punch later while others need only his fists to do the talking. His mellowing shouldn't be about erasing that youthful fire altogether, folks should know he means business, no matter his game face. Those that mistakenly think he's some big mushmellow need to have the record set straight and definitively without roughening up his edges too much that he's unrecognisable. The only mushmellow Superman allowed is the one when he's around kids.

[Kuwagaton]

The thing about the famous Miller Year One that everyone apes is that Batman really didn't learn to be Batman. By the time he hits Gotham he already has the skills and drive, it's just experience. Hardly anyone seems to care about exploring a Bruce who can't fight, like we almost identically don't want a Popeye or Conan who lose man to man. Or a Reed Richards who isn't good at science, etc. I stay on that track with Superman because while experience makes a huge difference, I don't care much for him learning to be Superman.

Unless someone does the progression as well as Morrison I'd rather just see someone who's comfortable with the character and doesn't try to show off some hard edge. Superman shouldn't have to try to earn a reputation.

[Ascended]

I dunno, Clark mellowing out always made sense to me because it was akin to when you get your first real taste of the reality that power can corrupt.

Yes, he can force people to be good to one another, but then are they changed or are they afraid? You can absolutely be a tyrant to your child and make sure they never step out of line, but then you're doing a whole lot of harm to protect some lofty ideal of good that you may or may not share with the world.

I think that once he started busting heads and seeing that people were afraid of him one day moving his moral goalposts, he chilled out a bit. It's a reality check.

I don't believe he'd ever actually go tyrannical (and especially not because Lois died), but it just made sense that someone raised in poverty would not want to become the kind of person who can force might making right if he saw another option. Ultimately it's superhero comics and punching is how we solve our problems, but it makes sense that Superman started approaching things a bit more carefully as he got older.

That said, he can get way too close to Picard and waffles way too hard. There's a happy medium for me. He can't be a doormat simply because we need him to stay some saint.

Hell, he was never a saint in the first place. Some people just think of him that way.

When Morrison handled the transition, a big part of it was Clark realizing he got out-played too. The confession he got out of Glennmorgan was forced and inadmissible in court, and while regular people cheered him all it took was one whispered "I hope he doesn't turn on us" to have people start turning on him. Clark didn't stop Glennmorgan and Glennmorgan was able to use Clark's actions against him. The Golden Age bully attitude wasn't getting the job done. So Clark had to change his approach.

It's like the guy who angrily marches and protests in his 20's, but eventually ends up going into politics in his 40's because he realized he'd make more of an impact that way.

[rpmaluki]

The thing about the famous Miller Year One that everyone apes is that Batman really didn't learn to be Batman. By the time he hits Gotham he already has the skills and drive, it's just experience. Hardly anyone seems to care about exploring a Bruce who can't fight, like we almost identically don't want a Popeye or Conan who lose man to man. Or a Reed Richards who isn't good at science, etc. I stay on that track with Superman because while experience makes a huge difference, I don't care much for him learning to be Superman.

Unless someone does the progression as well as Morrison I'd rather just see someone who's comfortable with the character and doesn't try to show off some hard edge. Superman shouldn't have to try to earn a reputation.

He's Superman, so he definitely shouldn't. That is something that should never go away, that he's someone that should not be messed with. People might make the mistake of thinking he's gone soft because of how he presents himself to those he saves when in reality, he hasn't. The thing though is that there's an obvious power up to Superman, how he dealt with things in his youth isn't how he'll going to deal with them now and that's due to how immensely strong he's grown, without stepping dangerously close to quoting Uncle Ben. Superman is basically more mindful of how he uses his abilities, however, the bad guys should not be privy to that. If criminals ought to be afraid of cops, they should be infinitely more so of him whether he's at the start of his Superman career or in his twentieth year.

[rpmaluki]

Hell, he was never a saint in the first place. Some people just think of him that way.

When Morrison handled the transition, a big part of it was Clark realizing he got out-played too. The confession he got out of Glennmorgan was forced and inadmissible in court, and while regular people cheered him all it took was one whispered "I hope he doesn't turn on us" to have people start turning on him. Clark didn't stop Glennmorgan and Glennmorgan was able to use Clark's actions against him. The Golden Age bully attitude wasn't getting the job done. So Clark had to change his approach.

It's like the guy who angrily marches and protests in his 20's, but eventually ends up going into politics in his 40's because he realized he'd make more of an impact that way.

Yes. This is what I meant by growth in experience. Clark has to know how to deal with everything that gets thrown his way because not everything has to be dealt with the same way. When he's young, he's impetuous. Now that he's older, he's a little more wise/careful/smart about what he does to get the job done. As long as there's no extreme difference between the two, there shouldn't be any difficulty seeing the one in the other and vice versa. It's not about drawing a line in the sand but rather drawing a bridge between the two.

[Robanker]

Hell, he was never a saint in the first place. Some people just think of him that way.

When Morrison handled the transition, a big part of it was Clark realizing he got out-played too. The confession he got out of Glennmorgan was forced and inadmissible in court, and while regular people cheered him all it took was one whispered "I hope he doesn't turn on us" to have people start turning on him. Clark didn't stop Glennmorgan and Glennmorgan was able to use Clark's actions against him. The Golden Age bully attitude wasn't getting the job done. So Clark had to change his approach.

It's like the guy who angrily marches and protests in his 20's, but eventually ends up going into politics in his 40's because he realized he'd make more of an impact that way.

Yup, this is why I prefer contextualizing the early years as more golden age in approach. It works out in my head, at least.

[The World]

The thing about the famous Miller Year One that everyone apes is that Batman really didn't learn to be Batman. By the time he hits Gotham he already has the skills and drive, it's just experience. Hardly anyone seems to care about exploring a Bruce who can't fight, like we almost identically don't want a Popeye or Conan who lose man to man. Or a Reed Richards who isn't good at science, etc. I stay on that track with Superman because while experience makes a huge difference, I don't care much for him learning to be Superman.

Unless someone does the progression as well as Morrison I'd rather just see someone who's comfortable with the character and doesn't try to show off some hard edge. Superman shouldn't have to try to earn a reputation.

To be fair no one has even half as much time put into the origins and developmental years as Superman does. For one reason or another something about Supes early days is interesting to write about provided the character is allowed the material to work with. Hundreds of issues in comics, tv shows, and animations directed at what Superman was like before he was Superman. The idea that there is some breadth to his character chronologically makes him seem a bit more mythic imo. Kind of like the Greek Heroes rather than most of his imitators who's lives for all intents and purposes start with some kind of inciting incident and are usually coupled with some tragic back story i.e. I got hit with some Gamma radiation one day, also my dad was an abusive wackjob.

For that second point I think the problem isn't that Superman needs to earn a reputation but that the character is no longer living up to his own reputation. If Supes fellow heroes feel they can begin to encroach on him or the villains believe they can dismiss him as a threat then that represents a shift in his behavior. Funny enough but when they gave N52 Supes the boot and Post-Crisis Supes had his comeback party it was immediately followed by Aquaman and Deathstroke 1 uping him back to back. Now I don't care much who gets the role but if Post-Crisis wants the gig he needs to act like he wants it otherwise the character gets a repuation of being a soft target to boost a characters credibility.

I prefer a happy middle, starting off as a hard head busting heads and growing with experience, to know how to deal with each situation as it comes (petty theft vs organised crime vs world ending threats). Some situations are talk first punch later while others need only his fists to do the talking. His mellowing shouldn't be about erasing that youthful fire altogether, folks should know he means business, no matter his game face. Those that mistakenly think he's some big mushmellow need to have the record set straight and definitively without roughening up his edges too much that he's unrecognisable. The only mushmellow Superman allowed is the one when he's around kids.

You know the funny thing is I think what you describe basically is Golden Age Superman. That guy could always change up his approach as needed. He was tough and quickly everyone came to realize that but he was no less capable of gentleness or assessing a situation needing a different approach beyond cracking somebody in the nose. There's even a story where he tries to deal with some delinquents where he tries to modify his hard nosed approach to scare them straight but the kids just kind of find his behavior amusing rather than scary. That era of Superman is more nuanced and flexible than it will probably ever be given credit for.

Modern writers should try and learn from it rather than thumbing their nose at it.

[phantom1592]

The thing about the famous Miller Year One that everyone apes is that Batman really didn't learn to be Batman. By the time he hits Gotham he already has the skills and drive, it's just experience. Hardly anyone seems to care about exploring a Bruce who can't fight, like we almost identically don't want a Popeye or Conan who lose man to man. Or a Reed Richards who isn't good at science, etc. I stay on that track with Superman because while experience makes a huge difference, I don't care much for him learning to be Superman.

Unless someone does the progression as well as Morrison I'd rather just see someone who's comfortable with the character and doesn't try to show off some hard edge. Superman shouldn't have to try to earn a reputation.

yeah... I have to say that when Supergirl's CW show started I LOVED most of season 1. We FINALLY had a character that was fully powered... and wanted to use her powers to do good. No angst... no origin buildup... Arrow took 3-4 years I think before he stopped murdering people and actually called himself 'Green Arrow'... Flash has to learn to be 'fastest man alive' EVERY season... but finally Supergirl…. just WAS supergirl.

Granted the show burned out FAST.... but I loved how it started.

[Ascended]

I don't care much for him learning to be Superman.

I've long thought one of the biggest differences between the DCU and the MU, and why DC's heroes are celebrated and valued instead of hated and feared, is because when Superman debuted publicly, he was already competent and good at the job. There were no costly rookie mistakes, or at least nothing truly serious. I'm sure there were gaffes and missteps and a learning curve in the early career, but when the world first meets Superman the dude's already been all around the world (if not time and space!) and seen some real sh*t. So even from day one people are confident the guy won't kill them by accident. Being so capable right out of the gate must earn him a mountain of goodwill.

[Kuwagaton]

Yeah. If they wanted to maintain a reverent way of describing him in DC more often I wouldn't object. I think historically Captain America has been the best title in playing up reverence for it's lead, and it's probably no coincidence that they've managed to sell him as the ultimate boy scout in the movies.

The thing though is that there's an obvious power up to Superman, how he dealt with things in his youth isn't how he'll going to deal with them now and that's due to how immensely strong he's grown, without stepping dangerously close to quoting Uncle Ben. .

Along the lines of what Ascended mentioned and also this, I have a big push and pull with the old Superboy. For all the reasons I think it doesn't work as a product, one of them is the fact that he's just young Superman (harder to sell an only slightly different Superman just in a setting of decades ago in a small town) but I do like that regardless of age, when he understands what he can do and decides to put on the suit, he's all in. He's a great hero based on following through with that decision mindfully instead of going through the melodrama of other heroes.

Funny enough but when they gave N52 Supes the boot and Post-Crisis Supes had his comeback party it was immediately followed by Aquaman and Deathstroke 1 uping him back to back. Now I don't care much who gets the role but if Post-Crisis wants the gig he needs to act like he wants it otherwise the character gets a repuation of being a soft target to boost a characters credibility.

I'm not sure the creators fascinated with Superman guest starring to pump up their own character seem to care if he's the hopping old guy, the dad, or the New 52. The jokerized story or the fatal beating from Prime are just as bad if not worse imo

yeah... I have to say that when Supergirl's CW show started I LOVED most of season 1. We FINALLY had a character that was fully powered... and wanted to use her powers to do good. No angst... no origin buildup... Arrow took 3-4 years I think before he stopped murdering people and actually called himself 'Green Arrow'... Flash has to learn to be 'fastest man alive' EVERY season... but finally Supergirl…. just WAS supergirl.

Granted the show burned out FAST.... but I loved how it started.

Yeah I don't keep up with the shows but they did a good job selling a traditionally teenaged character as an adult

[Osiris-Rex]

yeah... I have to say that when Supergirl's CW show started I LOVED most of season 1. We FINALLY had a character that was fully powered... and wanted to use her powers to do good. No angst... no origin buildup... Arrow took 3-4 years I think before he stopped murdering people and actually called himself 'Green Arrow'... Flash has to learn to be 'fastest man alive' EVERY season... but finally Supergirl…. just WAS supergirl.
.

And in full costume the very first episode. After Smallville people feared it would be several episodes, maybe even toward the end of the season before we saw Supergirl in costume.